[Rumour] Bus companies finding business difficult

Dub13

Anybody else hearing this...?I normally don't pay much attention to rumors but I have heard this from a good few people most of whom work in the airport, apparently the talk is all over the airport.

The contract for the stops from the DAA is up soon,so this should come to a head soon.Apparently they paid top $ for were they are now.

devnull

Yeah, the rumor is based upon nothing other than the fact the Transport for Ireland stops have gone up at the Aircoach stops at Dublin Airport and people presuming they are for Dublin Bus, and the fact that online payments were offline for a few days last week and people putting 2+2 together and coming up with a number more than that.

Of course the fact that the former happens just as the Aircoach fleet is being fitted with equipment allowing real time possibly to be enabled in the short term and the later was related to a high profile banking failure that hit every client of Worldpay would be facts that would get in the way of a good story.

Still, the Aircoach name can't be that bad, seeing as the CIE group saw it fit to advertise their own services under searches for the term on Google recently

SandyfordGuy

For someone who claims to be in the know, your posting history suggests it's not the first time you've posted such things and some of the posts suggests you may well have some involvement or other in the industry, perhaps in one of the state companies who in your previous posts you can say no wrong about, by your own admission you have family connections.

Every transport company is struggling in Ireland at the moment and I doubt Aircoach are raking in the money but neither are Citylink, GoBus or anyone else for that matter as they have to be self financing, unlike other certain companies who would never be able to fail but still manage to make a huge loss due to inefficiencies.

Aircoach's parent company whilst not going through the best of times is well able to finance the company going forward and in their last accounts in February stated that they would be funding the operation for at least the next 12 months and had signed documentation to this effect. If you care to download a copy of them from CRO.ie you will see for yourself.

Even if the contract for the DAA stops is up at the airport, I can't see this being anything other than a win win situation for everyone, as due to the fact the contract was negotiated during the boom, whoever gets an extended contract will not be paying anything like the previous deal. If a CIE company do offer a larger sum however, then that will generate a whole new set of questions about how much in the mire they really are.

devnull

Bit harsh!

There are always rumors that go around and 99% of the time there is nothing in them and I think the best thing is to wait and see but nobody should have any fear in booking Aircoach services because of this rumor which has very little foundation and more likely set up by someone somewhere who has an axe to grind as we have seen on this forum before on many occasions such as the likes of dub_commuter and Dalkey Resident who predicted Aircoach demise many times simply due to the fact they had some personal gripe or the fact they were complete xenophobes.

There is no chance that the company will go bust or anything like it, they may well scale back routes in line with demand and make some sensible changes and bring costs of contracts that were signed in the boom years more in line with economic realities since but there is no harm in that and that is what most companies should be doing. I agree with Sandyfordguy though that the bus stops contract is not going to be worth as much as it was before, especially as that was when the airport was one terminal too, so they'll save there even if they do retain it for longer.

Of course without doubt Dublin Bus and Aircoach are the only ones who bid for those stops. If Dublin Bus do make a huge bid over what the contract was before then this is not a good development for public transport in this country as it would seem to be just a way for Dublin Bus to try and help remove a rival from the marketplace which would not be good for anyone. If it's a commercially fair and realistic bid I have no problem however, but if it's over the top just for one reason then this is not how a public company should be behaving. But I'd suspect the NTA would rightly try and stop that from happening.

The input of private operators to Dublin Airport has been good to this country, many of the state services to the airport only upped their frequency after introduction of some competition on these routes, and many BE services didn't even go to the airport until the last few years when private operators started running services doing such thing. If we were to lose them then transport in this country would be all the more poorer for it, but of course I understand why some people would want to remove that competition to suit their own interests, I'm not naive, but the key here is to ensure that the best for the public is what happens going forward, and the chances of one company having a monopoly on an airport routes is not a good one.

Jamie2k9

How do people know the DAA contract was from the boom times, not all stops served by Aircoarch were there during the boom times....

devnull

Because in the boom times the T1 area next to the terminal was Dublin Bus originally and it changed over to Aircoach who won by competitive tender. Before that Aircoach were over the far side near the entrance to the car park building over the road from the terminal.

Aircoach have no more area now in T1 than they had at the start. They always had the area just left of arrivals when coming out the nearest door to the left of the terminal when exiting. I have no idea what the arrangements with T2 are other than Aircoach is Left and Dublin Bus is right.

lucernarian

devnull wrote: »

Still, the Aircoach name can't be that bad, seeing as the CIE group are seeing fit to advertise their own services under a rivals company name on Google.

I just tried a variety of searches in Google along the lines of "Dublin Airport to city by bus" and so far I've got no google ads except for www.viator.com. What are these advertisements you speak of? I presume it pertains to Dublin Bus in particular as opposed to CIÉ in general.

foggy_lad

To_be_confirmed wrote: »

I just tried a variety of searches in Google along the lines of "Dublin Airport to city by bus" and so far I've got no google ads except for www.viator.com. What are these advertisements you speak of? I presume it pertains to Dublin Bus in particular as opposed to CIÉ in general.

google Aircoach and the GoBe advertisement was top of the page. (appears to have been changed now)

lucernarian

foggy_lad wrote: »

google Aircoach and the GoBe advertisement was top of the page. (appears to have been changed now)

When did this take place? I only see GoBe advertisements when I searched for GoBe so far. There doesn't seem to be a question of impersonation here, rather one of trying to lure customers using targeted advertisements. They evidently saw sense and pulled those ads.

On a vaguely related note, Dublin Bus appear to be operating the Travel Information desk in T1 instead of what I think was CIÉ Travel (Same crowd as the Abbey St. office). Is this simply a reshuffle or something that the DAA put out to tender?

devnull

To_be_confirmed wrote: »

I just tried a variety of searches in Google along the lines of "Dublin Airport to city by bus" and so far I've got no google ads except for www.viator.com. What are these advertisements you speak of? I presume it pertains to Dublin Bus in particular as opposed to CIÉ in general.

They were running an advert campaign for much of the last two weeks so when someone searched for "aircoach" a advert for GoBE would come up. It was spoke about on here previously (see my earlier post)

I've made my initial post clearer however.

On a vaguely related note, Dublin Bus appear to be operating the Travel Information desk in T1 instead of what I think was CIÉ Travel (Same crowd as the Abbey St. office). Is this simply a reshuffle or something that the DAA put out to tender?

That is, and has been for years a commercial sales desks for CIE companies and last time I was there a few weeks back it still was that. It was headed 'Travel Information' which gives the impression it handles just that, when in reality it is a commercial sales desk for the CIE group of companies which results in people being directed to such companies transport where better options may exist.

I think that such unit should be staffed by Tourism Ireland and it's role should be to offer impartial travel advice to those who are requiring onward transport from Dublin Airport via all operators tailoring the advice to whatever is best for the member of the public who look for information there.

The operators should be allowed to have their own sales desks as well, but should be clearly outlined as such.

Koops80

SandyfordGuy wrote: »

Aircoach's parent company whilst not going through the best of times is well able to finance the company going forward and in their last accounts in February stated that they would be funding the operation for at least the next 12 months and had signed documentation to this effect. If you care to download a copy of them from CRO.ie you will see for yourself.

.

You mean like b&q Ireland who were more than happy to let their reputation take a little hit by putting their irish company into examinership despite also signing off the Ireland divisions account like you state above.

AlekSmart

Dub13 wrote: »

Anybody else hearing this...?I normally don't pay much attention to rumors but I have heard this from a good few people most of whom work in the airport, apparently the talk is all over the airport.

The contract for the stops from the DAA is up soon,so this should come to a head soon.Apparently they paid top $ for were they are now.

I suspect you may find that the central issue here is the DAA contract.

It was,if I recall correctly,one of the first examples of the NEW ! IMPROVED ! Dublin Airport Authority management ideas which managed to create a lot of income out of nothing.

At the time,Aircoach,through it's cash-rich parent upped the ante enough to make the DAA a very happy new entity indeed.

However,in the intervening period,it has actually settled down quite well,with no actual bloodshed on the Airport concourse..

The really interesting aspect is what figure the DAA expect to secure the permission this time round,or whether they expect to get away with reviewing the rent upward,as is traditional in Ireland...;)

The RTPI/NTA issue is far more important to the sustainability of Aircoach's Airport Express services as the Taxi industry continues to mercilessly tear the flesh from its skeleton.

Aircoach urgently needs to get its services on to the RTPI system,and has needed to since RTPI first went live.

Aircoach has never directly competed with Dublin Bus and it's Airlink,which continues to serve a clientele with a different expectation and travel requirement.

However,it does go head-to-head with the Taxi industry on virtually every inch of it's Airport Services and that battle is merciless !

Dub13

AlekSmart wrote: »

Aircoach has never directly competed with Dublin Bus and it's Airlink,which continues to serve a clientele with a different expectation and travel requirement.

However,it does go head-to-head with the Taxi industry on virtually every inch of it's Airport Services and that battle is merciless !

Would it not competed with the 747 route..?

Sponge Bob

I won't believe any rumours about these stops until Foggy sez they are true.

AlekSmart

Dub13 wrote: »

Would it not competed with the 747 route..?

On the face of it,apparently true.

However,in practice,the customer base tends to be better informed as to the actual package.

Aircoach's strength is,and always has been,it's targeting of a very specific customer profile,the Proffessional Business or Other Travellers interested in that little bit extra in terms of individual service.

At one time the Company Motto was "Travel in Luxury" which has now become a somewhat more insipid "Your route to and from The Airport",but it retains the essential ethos in its advertising...

http://www.aircoach.ie/coach.bus.transport.dublin.airport.service.php

Aircoach provides a 24-hour luxury coach service between Dublin Airport and Dublin City Centre.

The Dublin Bus Airlink product makes no mention of that vital "Luxury" word,focusing instead on the "Direct" aspect.

http://www.dublinbus.ie/Your-Journey1/Timetables/Airport-Services/

http://www.dublinbus.ie/PageFiles/110/AirportExpressBrochure.pdf

In addition to the direct Airlink service, the following bus routes also go to and from the airport.

It may appear a subtle difference,but to the seasoned traveller it is a very clear choice,helped by the obvious difference between a Double Deck BUS and a high end touring COACH.

The pricing structure reflects the target market also,with Dublin Bus attracting the younger more price conscious Backpacker market with a combination of the 16 route and Airlink,whilst Aircoach go for the Blue/White ABC1 market.

Aircoach's strength was always the tight focus of it's market strategy,but that market segment was directly being syphoned out of the grasp of the Taxi market and this is now proving to be a vicious dogfight at most of the City's Aircoach stops.

Airlink,whilst still suffering some effects of the unregulated Taxi interference,has a customer base far less amenable to some Jonah in an Avensis racking up an givin it loads about "I'll take yiz all for a tenner"...

The Airlink customer is far more likely to tell him to Pisz Off, whilst the more refined Aircoach customer may just be unused to the concept of "Waiting" for Public Transport and therefore well impressed with the "efficiency" of our Taxi service...;)

I would suggest that the Aircoach/Airlink services have been complimentary rather than directly competitive and together have proven that Public Transport,properly focused and operated CAN be a viable option to a car.

devnull

The slogan actually still is "Travel in Luxury" and has been for a good 5 or 6 years. The problem is the website design hasn't been updated in that time so it still retains the former one - this is another problem with Aircoach since the website badly needs an overhaul.

Dub13

I have seen the Taxi drivers touting for business myself many many times at an Aircoach stop,can/has anything ever been done about it..?

gugleguy

devnull wrote: »

The slogan actually still is "Travel in Luxury" and has been for a good 5 or 6 years. The problem is the website design hasn't been updated in that time so it still retains the former one - this is another problem with Aircoach since the website badly needs an overhaul.

There are still those Irish Website designers who think we're still in the late ninties.:pac:

Sponge Bob

It'd be very nice if they sent all the Dublin buses out to the carpark and replaced all these Dublin stops near the terminal with stops for Cork and Galway buses instead. I'd personally recommend they do so.

Victor

Thread title changed

Moderator

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Sponge Bob wrote: »

It'd be very nice if they sent all the Dublin buses out to the carpark and replaced all these Dublin stops near the terminal with stops for Cork and Galway buses instead. I'd personally recommend they do so.

This would be a problem and I have my doubts on the whole tendering for premium bus stops argument.

As part of the planning permission for the airport expansion, DAA are required to give the most popular routes the stops nearest the terminals and this would appear to be the current situation.

bk

I have no idea if Aircoach are or are not in trouble. But what I can say that we have been hearing "rumours" like this for years. Despite years of these rumours, not only are Aircoach still with us, but they have only very recently significantly expanded, with seemingly very successful intercity routes to Cork and Belfast.

While I'm sure their Airport business has suffered due to the recession (like all companies) and taxi competition, this seems far from being a company in trouble.

There are certainly many people working for certain semi-states who would love to see Aircoach go down and will grasp at any rumour that comes there way.

So I would take any such rumours with a very large pinch of salt.

AlekSmart

Dub13 wrote: »

I have seen the Taxi drivers touting for business myself many many times at an Aircoach stop,can/has anything ever been done about it..?

Without getting too enmeshed,I know that the situation has been raised at various forums by more than one set of Aircoach management.

The company did print and affix Information Panels to their Stops informing their customers of the Legality of such Practices and providing the relevant numbers to contact when approached.

I am also aware that the company did take steps to identify and pursue individuals through the Official Channels.
However as the perp's are most likely expert in such matters anyway,they know that no legitimate business has the resources necessary to pursue each individual to the extent of securing a conviction,for which it's entirely possible a fine of 5/- is payable !

Personally I never lose an opportunity to butt-in on such occasions,to advise the waiting Aircoach passenger if I've seen their Coach on it's way.....I'll leave the responses from the SPSV badge holders open to the floor to guess

The responsibility for regulating the Taxi Industry lies fairly and squarely with the Taxi Directorate it seems....

http://www.nationaltransport.ie/taxi-and-bus-licensing/taxi/

The National Transport Authority is responsible for the licensing and regulation of small public service vehicles SPSV) in Ireland. This refers collectively to taxis, wheelchair accessible taxis, hackneys, wheelchair accessible hackneys and limousines. Its duties and responsibilities are set out in the Taxi Regulation Act (2003). An Advisory Committee to the Authority, appointed by the Minister for Transport, Tourism and Sport, is in place to advise the Authority or the Minister as appropriate in relation to issues relevant to small public service vehicles, their drivers and dispatch operators. The Board of the Authority decides on key taxi regulation matters. An Garda Síochána remains the licensing authority for SPSV driver licensing.

However,we can see in that first paragraph,at least two "outs" from this responsibility hoohah....An Advisory Committee and An Garda Siochana

Given that the Taxi Regulator and more recently, the NTA,replaced a somewhat more functional and widely respected Garda Carriage Office,the all too visible collapse in attitudes to SPSV Law amongst the Industry's members raises significant questions regarding the Professional Competency of the "Authority".

But at the end of the day,it is the fully compliant and law abiding Aircoach which is having it's sustainability threatened,whilst it's customer base is illegally poached by far more questionable individuals.

Sad,but hey,that's the Irish Way

Just to clarify,if that waiting Aircoach Customer hails a passing Taxi,then all bets are off,but as these customers tend to be already ticketed,it's very rare to observe this practice.

the groutch

yeah, Aircoach's real opposition is the taxis, not CIE or DB.
Their big selling point has always been providing an Airport direct service from the southside (especially SoCoDu), something DB gave up on with their abolition of the 746.
And unless you have at least 4 people sharing a taxi covering a journey of that length, the Aircoach will always be the better option.

Conway635

Just to add to what Alek says, as a regular user of airport services (I fly about once a month) I can confirm that taxi driver predatory behavior is by far the biggest threat to the profitability of Aircoach (and DB's Airlink come to that).

I have been repeatedly approached by taxi drivers when waiting for services, and offered a ride for "the same price as the bus". Lies have been used, such as "the (Airlink) service does not run this early" or even "I've heard there is a bus strike this morning". When I have intervened to prevent fellow waiting pax from being misled, I have been verbally abused.


C635

devnull

I can echo what C635 says - people often ask me where is the harm in taking a taxi when offered such things as it will not make them any worse off as they are paying the same amount - They couldn't be more wrong.

Customers who do decide to go for a taxi fare matching option, in the long run cheat themselves, as less money for the transport companies means a fare rise, which will also result in the taxi drivers raising their charge by the same amount,

Then if the service is discontinued you can be sure the taxi drivers suddenly will be back to charging 40-50 euro a run again and refusing to pool passengers and offer cheap fares. Many are too naive or silly to realize this, every now and then I see people posting how generous the taxi driver is for doing this - It has caused both Aircoach and Nitelink to cut back services in recent times and raise prices because passengers have been poached from bus stops. The taxis are not interested in offer a good value price, just removing competition to push prices up.

You will notice post December 24th when the Aircoach Ballinteer route was removed, taxi drivers no longer offer to match the price of the bus and have reverted back to their 35 euro+ fares now they have wiped out the competition. The Public moan about this but at the end of the day if you ever got into a taxi and took them up on the offer you helped increase your own fare.

lucernarian

If one wanted to report such behaviour of particular taxis in soliciting fares from bus stops, what's the best way to do it?

http://transportforireland.ie/taxi/taxi-compliments-complaints/

I'm not sure what category best suits the nature of the offence. Is it an RTA breach or does it fall under some other offence?

Losty Dublin

To_be_confirmed wrote: »

If one wanted to report such behaviour of particular taxis in soliciting fares from bus stops, what's the best way to do it?

http://transportforireland.ie/taxi/taxi-compliments-complaints/

I'm not sure what category best suits the nature of the offence. Is it an RTA breach or does it fall under some other offence?

The complaint may either be that a taxi is approaching people and touting for fares or else that they are standing for hire where there is no rank. However, you may need to contact the NTA first to see if they will entertain or act on a complaint from a non passenger, so to speak. If not then little can be done about this aside from contacting the Peelers.

lucernarian

Losty Dublin wrote: »

The complaint may either be that a taxi is approaching people and touting for fares or else that they are standing for hire where there is no rank. However, you may need to contact the NTA first to see if they will entertain or act on a complaint from a non passenger, so to speak. If not then little can be done about this aside from contacting the Peelers.

I can probably file it under "Road traffic offence involving a taxi".

Koops80

Conway635 wrote: »

Just to add to what Alek says, as a regular user of airport services (I fly about once a month) I can confirm that taxi driver predatory behavior is by far the biggest threat to the profitability of Aircoach (and DB's Airlink come to that).

I have been repeatedly approached by taxi drivers when waiting for services, and offered a ride for "the same price as the bus". Lies have been used, such as "the (Airlink) service does not run this early" or even "I've heard there is a bus strike this morning". When I have intervened to prevent fellow waiting pax from being misled, I have been verbally abused.


C635

I am in a similar situation to you, live in the city centre and take a lot of early morning flights. I don't use air coach due to their attitude towards people who use their service along the route. My nearest stop is oconnell street but air coach refuse to state a pick up time and state bus leaves ballsbridge per our timetable and will be at oconnell whenever. End result is that you have a lot of confused and worried people at 5am on oconnell street wondering have they just missed the bus so it's no surprise that the taxis clean up especially if its cold / wet. For the hours of 3am to 6.30am they should have a departure time for oconnel street of ballsbridge departure plus x mins. This will also help the people who are the stops past o Connell street

Real time will help this a lot but until then I'm sticking to taxis and the airlink

Losty Dublin

To_be_confirmed wrote: »

I can probably file it under "Road traffic offence involving a taxi".

Road Traffic Offences in that case probably means stuff like breaking red lights, disobely road signs and markings, speeding, etc, not non compliance of taxi laws and regulations. Even so, you ought to contact them first to see if they will accept a complaint from a non hirer of a taxi. One hopes that they will but I wouldn't be shocked if they won't.

Sponge Bob

Conway635 wrote: »

When I have intervened to prevent fellow waiting pax from being misled, I have been verbally abused.
C635

You should report these people to the Taxi regulator, they are obviously not fit to hold a public service licence what with their being abusive and dishonest with it.

If a taxi driver chances their arm with a tout, and gets told the bus is cheaper, and goes away quietly thereafter, I have no major issues with that. But the abusive and devious touts should be taken off the road.

Would you want your own daughter in that cab on her own after a night out???

ballooba

the groutch wrote: »

Their big selling point has always been providing an Airport direct service from the southside (especially SoCoDu), something DB gave up on with their abolition of the 746.

The 747 from O'Connell St to IFSC stretch is infuriatingly slow and hence why I use the Aircoach from O'Connell St. It's far from direct. Bus Aras is a disaster with all the vehicular, PSV & Luas traffic.

schemingbohemia

ballooba wrote: »

The 747 from O'Connell St to IFSC stretch is infuriatingly slow and hence why I use the Aircoach from O'Connell St. It's far from direct. Bus Aras is a disaster with all the vehicular, PSV & Luas traffic.

The last couple of times I've used the 747 i've taken a bus to the quays and got on there instead, cuts out a lot of the messing around. Suppose it depends where you're coming from though.

Dub13

ballooba wrote: »

The 747 from O'Connell St to IFSC stretch is infuriatingly slow and hence why I use the Aircoach from O'Connell St. It's far from direct. Bus Aras is a disaster with all the vehicular, PSV & Luas traffic.

In the early morning yes I find the aircoach faster,but when there is traffic in drumcondra the 747 is much faster.

RATM

Koops80 wrote: »

I am in a similar situation to you, live in the city centre and take a lot of early morning flights. I don't use air coach due to their attitude towards people who use their service along the route. My nearest stop is oconnell street but air coach refuse to state a pick up time and state bus leaves ballsbridge per our timetable and will be at oconnell whenever. End result is that you have a lot of confused and worried people at 5am on oconnell street wondering have they just missed the bus so it's no surprise that the taxis clean up especially if its cold / wet. For the hours of 3am to 6.30am they should have a departure time for oconnel street of ballsbridge departure plus x mins. This will also help the people who are the stops past o Connell street

Real time will help this a lot but until then I'm sticking to taxis and the airlink

Couldn't agree more- especially between 3am and 7.30am when there is little or no traffic. They should be able to predict the arrival time on O'Connell St within 5 minutes of accuracy if no traffic is holding them up.

If they do introduce real time information I hope for their sake they get it right unlike Dublin Bus have, at least for my route (140).

When I lived in the city the Aircoach was always my preference. I just see them as more reliable and less likely than DB to not show up. Also the smell of the leather is well worth the extra few euro I hope they not only survive but flourish too because they really do set an example to Dublin Bus as to just how far wrong they have got it. If we don't have that then standards on DB will drop even further (if that is even possible?)