Women, Childcare and Insolvency

um7y1h83ge06nx

What do ye think of this topic? I posted the below in the discussion on the Ladies's Lounge but thought a debate would be good here too.

"I do think the media and other parties are whipping this up into something it's probably not and Varakar has fell for it.

The whole argument has revolved around women and not parents in this discussion.

I heard Morning Ireland this morning and was quite offended by it. One of the commentators labelled this insolvency issue as "anti-women and anti-children". I would say it is anti-parents and anti-children.

The whole thing got skewed when it kept speaking about the mother's salary as being a determining factor. Nothing was mentioned about the partner/father's salary or if the parents weren't in a relationship if the father was contributing maintenance.

The whole discussion I heard on Morning Ireland is that mother's are solely responsible for childcare which is an archaic view and insulting to BOTH sexes.

Unfortunately the whole thing is gone out of control now and no reason discussion can be had on the topic."

So I believe that both parents are jointly responsible for childcare and automatically assuming it's the mother's sole responsibility in this day and age is insulting to everyone. Unfortunately the media have saw a gem of an issue that will stir up debate, fill lots of column inches and drive the ridiculous "battle of the sexes" in various opinion pieces.

eviltwin

From what I can see both sexes are equally annoyed by this suggestion. I don't see it as a male vs female issue rather an issue for parents vs non parents.

Pawwed Rig

What Varadkar said actually makes sense in that if someone want to go through bankrupcy (insert correct terminology here) then their financial situation needs to be analysed. If the childcare is worth more than their wages then it does not make financial sense for them to be working. Who is going to pay the difference?
Having said that the fact that Varadkar singled out working mothers rather than working people is a stupid mistake for a politician to make.

Koa Obnoxious Sawhorse wrote: »

So I believe that both parents are jointly responsible for childcare.

I agree with you that this is the way it should be but in this country (unfortunately) women are still considered the child carers with the father marginalised to a huge extent through the courts.

um7y1h83ge06nx

Pawwed Rig wrote: »

Having said that the fact that Varadkar singled out working mothers rather than working people is a stupid mistake for a politician to make.

Absolutely true, although I think (would need to listen to it again) from the recording I heard on Morning Ireland he was asked the question specifically about working mothers and answered in that context.

Now I would need to heard it again and I might be wrong but if that's the case he didn't really say anything wrong apart from not correcting the question and answering it generally for all working people instead of just women.

I must try and find the recording.

Pawwed Rig

I think Enda Kenny's comments are more ridiculous tbh but they are PC so there will be no outrage

'The Taoiseach has confirmed that a requirement on someone entering insolvency to give up work if childcare costs exceeded their salary is to be scrapped.
Enda Kenny made the commitment in the Dáil after the Fianna Fáil leader Micheál Martin said it would be anti-family, anti-woman and anti-employment.
It comes after comments by Transport Minster Leo Varadkar who said some working women would have to choose between their careers and paying the mortgage if they enter the insolvency regime.' (http://www.newstalk.ie/Taoiseach-No-requirement-to-give-up-work-under-insolvency-rules)


I think we need to be realistic in Ireland. If you can't afford something then alternatives must be found. If you cannot afford the alternatives then something has to give.

Childcare can be handled a number of ways other than the standard creche. Au-pairs can be hired for a fraction of the cost of a creche for example. Parents cooperatives are another alternative as are more flexible working hours/parental leave being made available for parent rather than just mothers.

EricPraline

It does seem that the Examiner have taken this out of context, and sensationalised the issue.

Surely the central issue here is not around equality, but the thorny issue of the extent to which those receiving debt write-downs can continue to maintain their current way of life. The point regarding working and childcare should be taken in the context of previous comments about the expectations for anyone making this kind of deal with a bank (e.g. losing private health care, private school fees etc). The equality issue is a red herring.

clairefontaine

Pawwed Rig wrote: »

I think Enda Kenny's comments are more ridiculous tbh but they are PC so there will be no outrage

'The Taoiseach has confirmed that a requirement on someone entering insolvency to give up work if childcare costs exceeded their salary is to be scrapped.
Enda Kenny made the commitment in the Dáil after the Fianna Fáil leader Micheál Martin said it would be anti-family, anti-woman and anti-employment.
It comes after comments by Transport Minster Leo Varadkar who said some working women would have to choose between their careers and paying the mortgage if they enter the insolvency regime.' (http://www.newstalk.ie/Taoiseach-No-requirement-to-give-up-work-under-insolvency-rules)


I think we need to be realistic in Ireland. If you can't afford something then alternatives must be found. If you cannot afford the alternatives then something has to give.

Childcare can be handled a number of ways other than the standard creche. Au-pairs can be hired for a fraction of the cost of a creche for example. Parents cooperatives are another alternative as are more flexible working hours/parental leave being made available for parent rather than just mothers.

He is saying that because he doesnt want more women on the social welfare tab.

Why not give a tax credit to families who have kids in childcare.

Pawwed Rig

Going through insolvency means someone needs to pick up the bill whether that is social welfare/Bank/ESB etc Essentially the govt will pay anyway.

Is there not already a childcare payment? FF introduced one a few years back. Anyone know if it is still around?

drunkmonkey

What he's saying is, if your loosing money by working then you shouldn't work. You can look at that two ways, either stay at home and mind the kids or get a better paying Job.
Why is there even a news article about this, it's basic common sense.

clairefontaine

Pawwed Rig wrote: »

Going through insolvency means someone needs to pick up the bill whether that is social welfare/Bank/ESB etc Essentially the govt will pay anyway.

Is there not already a childcare payment? FF introduced one a few years back. Anyone know if it is still around?

The childcare payment got scrapped. A good argument was made that the subsidy inflated the prices.

Some women work at cost just so they can stay in the game. Its often the case that if you take a few years off, when you go back you start from the bottom.

Pawwed Rig

clairefontaine wrote: »

The childcare payment got scrapped. A good argument was made that the subsidy inflated the prices.

Some women work at cost just so they can stay in the game. Its often the case that if you take a few years off, when you go back you start from the bottom.

That was typical of that FF government anyway. rather than try to address an issue they just threw money at it. If I remember everyone got the childcare payment regardless of whether you were working or not or whether you used childcare services or not
I have no problem with working at cost but if you are working at less than cost and are inslovent then someone needs to pick up the shortfall.