Fifty reasons to abandon catholicism -- more to add?

robindch

A few months back, Adam Lee assembles fifty reasons to abandon catholicism and the Vatican. Then shortly afterwards, publishes a follow-up listing some more.

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/daylightatheism/2013/03/fifty-reasons-to-boycott-the-catholic-church/

What other reasons could be added?

the culture of deference

I cannot see what the catholic have done for the good of humanity.

They have broken every law yet still seem to have brainwashed idiots in power running this country.

The only way forward is for the church to be dismantled and its resources seized.

Pherekydes

I didn't read through the entire list, but the idea that the Bible is the word of some god is a bare-faced lie.

GCU Flexible Demeanour

Erm

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/daylightatheism/2013/03/fifty-reasons-to-boycott-the-catholic-church/
Savita’s life and death is just the latest in a long line of tragedies directly attributable to the doctrines and beliefs of the Roman Catholic church.

If our problem with Catholicism is they make stuff up, why muddy the waters by making stuff up ourselves. The author of that line can't have any definitive knowledge of the events, yet s/he's claiming a death is "directly attributable" in a situation where the leaked draft conclusions of an actual investigation says "

http://www.irishhealth.com/clin/pregnancy/newsstory.php?id=21695
It also says that even before the Halappanavars asked for a termination, the clinical situaiton indicated that there was a significant and increasing risk to the mother and performing an abortion should have been considered whether or not it was requested by the patient.

The report's findings on the termination issue will be seen in many quarters as vindicating the Government's decision to clarify this matter through new legislation and guidelines.

The findings, however, will also pose serious questions for the hospital and the HSE on how maternity care is provided and resourced.

The draft report also indicates that better guidelines are needed in dealing with serious infection in pregnancy.

Unless we can't tell the difference between the phrase "directly attributable" and "contributory" (or unless we want to enter some fantasy land where we can pretend the opening assertions in the linked article isn't high bollockology), we really should be coughing a little right now.

The reason to give up Catholicism is if we contend that it isn't true. If it was true, then it wouldn't especially matter if some Bishop thought that women should wear a lovely silk dress just like him.

Azure_sky

robindch wrote: »

What other reasons could be added?

It's a load of ol' bollocks!:D

Winty

Great link thanks

How many of the 50 are some way linked to Sex? I recon 49

CerebralCortex

You're prohibited from ****. That won't do!!

jank

the culture of deference wrote: »

I cannot see what the catholic have done for the good of humanity.

They have broken every law yet still seem to have brainwashed idiots in power running this country.

The only way forward is for the church to be dismantled and its resources seized.

You think the way forward is seizing private assets? Marx died 140 years ago!

Galvasean

Winty wrote: »

Great link thanks

How many of the 50 are some way linked to Sex? I recon 49 69

Your post needed to be more Freudian and obsessive.

Hotblack Desiato

I read this:

CerebralCortex wrote: »

You're prohibited from ****. That won't do!!

followed by:

jank wrote: »

You think the way forward is seizing private assets?

and read it as 'squeezing private assets' :pac:

nowanathiest

Industrial schools, Magdalene laundries, systematic child abuse, forced adoptions for monetary gain, there are 800 men in the Vatican depending on the simpletons in Ireland to fund their gilded lifestyles..........pass the plate everyone!!!

Kidchameleon

I read the first few words and realized that its a totally bull**it article. The church has nothing to do with Halappanavar's death. The husband has stated that he was never told she couldn't have an abortion because it was a "Catholic country".

Perhaps the church has a huge influence on the governance of this country but its the people who YOU vote for that enforce it.

Bannasidhe

Kidchameleon wrote: »

I read the first few words and realized that its a totally bull**it article. The church has nothing to do with Halappanavar's death. The husband has stated that he was never told she couldn't have an abortion because it was a "Catholic country".

Perhaps the church has a huge influence on the governance of this country but its the people who YOU vote for that enforce it.

Really???
I have certainly never voted for anyone who thinks the RCC should have any influence over the running of this country.

I suspect it's the people who tick Catlick on the census while at the same time ignoring every single Church 'rule' that doesn't suit them who are voting for those that enforce it.

GCU Flexible Demeanour

Kidchameleon wrote: »

The husband has stated that he was never told she couldn't have an abortion because it was a "Catholic country".

Can you link to a story that substantiates this? I can't recall reading that he'd changed his account.

But, clearly, you're right that the assertions at the start of the story linked in the OP are pants. We don't yet have a solid, published authoritative account of what actually happened.

the culture of deference

Bannasidhe wrote: »

I suspect it's the people who tick Catlick on the census while at the same time ignoring every single Church 'rule' that doesn't suit them who are voting for those that enforce it.

A simple census test.

You would have to score 80% or higher to be able to vote catlick. Each individual would have to vote, no mammy voting. Children under 18 would not be counted.

1. How many books are in a Catholic Bible?
66
61
82
73
57
67.

2. Which of the following is a Deuterocanonical book? The Apocalypse The Didache Sirach, Daniel Jude Exodus.

3. The name Peter means? Pope Fisherman Rock Blessed Nothing, its just a name.

4. Priestly celibacy is a doctrine of the Roman Catholic Church? True False

5. The Catholic Church teaches that men and women should abstain from artificial Birth Control? True False

6. When do the Twelve Days of Christmas end?
January 1st
December 26th
December 25th
January 6th
I dont know

7. The Immaculate Conception refers to:
The birth of Mary
The birth of John the Baptist
The Virgin Birth of Christ
The conception of Mary
The miraculous conception of Christ

8. Catholics worship: All holy objects and people God and the Saints God God and Mary

9. The Second Ecumenical Council of the Vatican ended in what year? 1798 1871 1962 1965 1969 1978

10. A Roman Catholic Deacon can not do the following:
Consecrate the Eucharist
Baptize Perform Marriages Perform Funerals Hear Confessions
A Deacon cannot hear confessions or consecrate the Eucharist11.

Who was the first pope? Pope Gregory the Great Pope Clement Simon Peter James Paul Pope Paul I

12. The Church considers everything the Pope teaches to be infallible? True False

13. The doctrine of the Trinity teaches us that:
There are three Gods, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit
There is one God who is manifested in three different ways
There is one God who exists as three persons
Both God and Mary are divine
Catholics Do not believe in the Trinity.

14. According to the Catechism of The Catholic Church, the third commandment is:
Have no other Gods before me
Do not use the Lords Name in Vain
Remember the Sabbath Day
Honor thy mother and father
Thou shalt not steal.
Thou shalt not kill

15. How many sacraments are there in the Catholic Church? 1 3 4 5 6 7

16. Catholics believe in a second chance after death? True False

17. Catholics must confess all sins to a priest or they cannot go to heaven. True False

18. Catholics must attend mass on:
The First Friday of each month and Sundays
Sundays
Sundays and Holy Days of Obligation
Sundays and Christmas and Easter
All Feast Days and Sundays

19. How many Holy Days of Obligation are observed in America? 4 5 6 7 8

20. Pope John Paul II added which mysteries to the Rosary.
Sorrowful Mysteries
Luminous Mysteries
Glorious Mysteries
Marian Mysteries No
ne

21. Catholics believe that the consecrated communion wafer and wine are: A symbol of the Body and Blood of Christ The actual Body and Blood of Christ

22. An Ostensorium is a: Chalice for the wine A special candle holder used on the altar A monstrance used to display a consecrated host The vessel in which the consecrated host for the laity are kept A cloth used to cover the altar vessels

23. An indulgence is the forgiveness of a past or future sin. True False

24. The Catholic Church teaches that in confession, the priest can actually forgive the sins of the penitent, by the grace of God. True False

25. The title Pope, comes from the word Papa which means? Bishop Priest Father Leader Vicar of Christ

26. To genuflect is when: The priest kisses the altar before mass Make the sign of the cross Kneel or bow down Reflect on our sins during the Penitential Rite Strike your chest three times during the Nicene Creed

27. A woman can validly be ordained a priest if she is ordained by a bishop? True False

28. The Catholic Church does not believe in using Icons. True False

29. A priest can cease being a priest when:
He retires.
He is removed from the ministry by a Bishop.
He leaves the Catholic Church.
Never, like marriage, priesthood is a permanent vocation

30. A valid marriage can be dissolved through a church annulment. True False

Bannasidhe

the culture of deference wrote: »

A simple census test.

You would have to score 80% or higher to be able to vote catlick. Each individual would have to vote, no mammy voting. Children under 18 would not be counted.

1. How many books are in a Catholic Bible? 66 61 82 73 57 672.

Which of the following is a Deuterocanonical book? The Apocalypse The Didache Sirach Daniel Jude Exodus3.

The name Peter means? Pope Fisherman Rock Blessed Nothing, its just a name.

4. Priestly celibacy is a doctrine of the Roman Catholic Church? True False

5. The Catholic Church teaches that men and women should abstain from artificial Birth Control? True False

6. When do the Twelve Days of Christmas end? January 1st December 26th December 25th January 6th I dont know

7. The Immaculate Conception refers to: The birth of Mary The birth of John the Baptist The Virgin Birth of Christ The conception of Mary The miraculous conception of Christ

8. Catholics worship: All holy objects and people God and the Saints God God and Mary

9. The Second Ecumenical Council of the Vatican ended in what year? 1798 1871 1962 1965 1969 197810.

A Roman Catholic Deacon can not do the following: Consecrate the Eucharist Baptize Perform Marriages Perform Funerals Hear Confessions A Deacon cannot hear confessions or consecrate the Eucharist11.

Who was the first pope? Pope Gregory the Great Pope Clement Simon Peter James Paul Pope Paul I

12. The Church considers everything the Pope teaches to be infallible? True False

13. The doctrine of the Trinity teaches us that: There are three Gods, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit There is one God who is manifested in three different ways There is one God who exists as three persons Both God and Mary are divine Catholics Do not believe in the Trinity.

14. According to the Catechism of The Catholic Church, the third commandment is: Have no other Gods before me Do not use the Lords Name in Vain Remember the Sabbath Day Honor thy mother and father Thou shalt not steal. Thou shalt not kill

15. How many sacraments are there in the Catholic Church? 1 3 4 5 6 7

16. Catholics believe in a second chance after death? True False

17. Catholics must confess all sins to a priest or they cannot go to heaven. True False

18. Catholics must attend mass on: The First Friday of each month and Sundays Sundays Sundays and Holy Days of Obligation Sundays and Christmas and Easter All Feast Days and Sundays

19. How many Holy Days of Obligation are observed in America? 4 5 6 7 8

20. Pope John Paul II added which mysteries to the Rosary. Sorrowful Mysteries Luminous Mysteries Glorious Mysteries Marian Mysteries None

21. Catholics believe that the consecrated communion wafer and wine are: A symbol of the Body and Blood of Christ The actual Body and Blood of Christ

22. An Ostensorium is a: Chalice for the wine A special candle holder used on the altar A monstrance used to display a consecrated host The vessel in which the consecrated host for the laity are kept A cloth used to cover the altar vessels

23. An indulgence is the forgiveness of a past or future sin. True False

24. The Catholic Church teaches that in confession, the priest can actually forgive the sins of the penitent, by the grace of God. True False

25. The title Pope, comes from the word Papa which means? Bishop Priest Father Leader Vicar of Christ

26. To genuflect is when: The priest kisses the altar before mass Make the sign of the cross Kneel or bow down Reflect on our sins during the Penitential Rite Strike your chest three times during the Nicene Creed

27. A woman can validly be ordained a priest if she is ordained by a bishop? True False

28. The Catholic Church does not believe in using Icons. True False

29. A priest can cease being a priest when: He retires. He is removed from the ministry by a Bishop. He leaves the Catholic Church. Never, like marriage, priesthood is a permanent vocation

30. A valid marriage can be dissolved through a church annulment. True False

Or one could just ask them to explain Transubstantiation.

GCU Flexible Demeanour

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Or one could just ask them to explain Transubstantiation.

Best appraoched by analogy.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=24mrmjUBwTc

nowanathiest

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Really???
I have certainly never voted for anyone who thinks the RCC should have any influence over the running of this country.

I suspect it's the people who tick Catlick on the census while at the same time ignoring every single Church 'rule' that doesn't suit them who are voting for those that enforce it.

Bannashie, you are inadverdently voting for the RCC each time you cast...... vast majority of your politicians are Catholic, schools and hospitals are run by Catholic Boards, most marriages ceremonies are still carried out in Catholic Churches.......if you have children they will certainly go to Catholic schoos and you won't think twice about having them making communion or confirmation. When you die you will have a Catholic ceremony and burial. It permeates every aspect of your life whether you like it or not, because you don't have any real alternatives.

How can you realistically say you have an alternative vote?

GCU Flexible Demeanour

nowanathiest wrote: »

How can you realistically say you have an alternative vote?

I think this takes us into the discussion around atheism not having any kind of shared values that actually mobilise us as a group. There's no atheist manifesto, and coming up with one is just not easy; folk might remember an earlier thread.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056736030

A call to Catholic principles mobilises a section of the population, who share (at some level) a common outlook and objective. That's because Catholicism at least has some kind of a view on issues. Atheism just isn't the same kind of feature. I can't think of a reason why anyone would build their identity around atheism, or even how they actually could build an identity around atheism. How can you be defined by what you are not?

Bannasidhe

nowanathiest wrote: »

Bannashie, you are inadverdently voting for the RCC each time you cast...... vast majority of your politicians are Catholic, schools and hospitals are run by Catholic Boards, most marriages ceremonies are still carried out in Catholic Churches.......if you have children they will certainly go to Catholic schoos and you won't think twice about having them making communion or confirmation. When you die you will have a Catholic ceremony and burial. It permeates every aspect of your life whether you like it or not, because you don't have any real alternatives.

How can you realistically say you have an alternative vote?

Sorry to burst your bubble but I research people before I vote for them and as the person I voted for is vocally pro-choice and same-sex marriage she may be a Catholic, but she isn't a very good one. I have never voted for either FF or FG...not even as a 10th 'preference'.

The very first time I voted was in the Abortion referendum of '83- my vote was not in line with that required by the RCC.

I have a child - he is now a grown man. No baptism, no communion, no confirmation - had no choice but to send him to the local NS where he received no religious instruction - by my order.

I most certainly will not have a Catholic funeral - I am one of the lucky ones who managed to officially defect and am 'barred' from participating in any RCC ritual as a result. Both my OH - whom I cannot legally marry as we are the same gender but when I can it will not be in anyway a religious ceremony (she is not a Catholic btw) and my atheist son (technically my legal next of kin) plus all of my siblings are fully aware that I am not a Catholic and my wishes regarding the disposal of my corpse.

There are alternatives - one just needs to refuse to compromise and take the 'ah sure, that's the way things are' route.

I have also been asked by my atheist 93 year old granduncle to organise his funeral when the time comes - it will not be religious.

Brian Shanahan

jank wrote: »

You think the way forward is seizing private assets? Marx died 140 years ago!

You think the church assets are truly private, especially given their long history of abusing their position of power and popular good will to extort those assets from their own believers?

Oh, and while Marx died 140 years ago, every time we are railroaded into a capitalist economic system, his theories and criticisms are vindicted. Also if we were accepting your non-argument as valid, the church would have even less legitmacy as its font is dead 2,000 years.

nowanathiest

GCU Flexible Demeanour wrote: »

I think this takes us into the discussion around atheism not having any kind of shared values that actually mobilise us as a group. There's no atheist manifesto, and coming up with one is just not easy; folk might remember an earlier thread.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056736030

A call to Catholic principles mobilises a section of the population, who share (at some level) a common outlook and objective. That's because Catholicism at least has some kind of a view on issues. Atheism just isn't the same kind of feature. I can't think of a reason why anyone would build their identity around atheism, or even how they actually could build an identity around atheism. How can you be defined by what you are not?

Religious people always make me smile when they trot out the old "how can you believe in nothing" line. They are the ones who believe in nothing, i.e fairytales about gods, devils, afterlife, good and evil, and they never appear to perceive the irony of it.

Atheism for me is about taking personal responsibility for my life. I'm not waiting for anyone to tell me how I should or shouldn't live. I don't believe in Santa, the tooth fairy, luck or fate. It's about equality, scientific endeavour and a desire to improve life for all and being part of an organisation is not necessary to accomplish these things. That is just an administrative function.

Currently all religions are run by men, mainly for the benefit of men. Some are mysogonistic (Catholic & Muslim in particular) racist and homophobic. Hardly the type of ideals to be instilling in the next generation.

TheGilch13

The main thing is that traditional church values halt social progression and hindres forward thinkers amongst a vast amount of people. People who are atheist etc. who don't follow church teachings are still subjected to live in a society that in some way still follows these backwards traditionalist views. Whether it be gay marriage or anything else the influence of the church has too much of an effect on those that don't even follow Catholicism. The clergy should not be allowed to influence governments or anybody in power.

nowanathiest

TheGilch13 wrote: »

The main thing is that traditional church values halt social progression and hindres forward thinkers amongst a vast amount of people. People who are atheist etc. who don't follow church teachings are still subjected to live in a society that in some way still follows these backwards traditionalist views. Whether it be gay marriage or anything else the influence of the church has too much of an effect on those that don't even follow Catholicism. The clergy should not be allowed to influence governments or anybody in power.

Agree 100%. John Charles McQuaid, Primate of Ireland 1940-1972 was the real Prime Minster of Ireland during that time, and as we have subsequently seen it was a very unhealthy period in the Irish State.

GCU Flexible Demeanour

nowanathiest wrote: »

It's about equality, scientific endeavour and a desire to improve life for all and being part of an organisation is not necessary to accomplish these things.

I'd suggest, without organisation, the concept of equality is literally meaningless. Achieving scientific progress and, particularly, securing a general improvement in living conditions are both very significantly (and, in the case of the second, almost entirely) questions of human organisation.

Reflect on the point I'm making. Atheism is not a principle for human co-operation. It says precisely nothing about values. We might be individualists, or socialist, or whatever. Those are positions that might define part of our identities, and suggest things that we collectively value or want to achieve.

For the sake of argument, "I don't want my children to receive religious instruction in school" might be an individual requirment. But it says nothing about what we will be teaching children in school. We might want a pluralist position "We'll teach all children about all religions in school, including the positiion of having no religion. So Muslim children will be told about atheism, as well as Allah." Or we might say "No religious instruction of any kind will take place, and the values informing any kind of social education will be drawn from the rules of the New York State Boxing Commission."

The point is that a political agenda will only emerge where a reasonably coherent social group share an outlook. Mayomen might be such a group, although I don't think educational reform is high on their collective agenda. Irish Atheism isn't a coherent social group, and so has no political significance.

nowanathiest

GCU Flexible Demeanour wrote: »

I'd suggest, without organisation, the concept of equality is literally meaningless. Achieving scientific progress and, particularly, securing a general improvement in living conditions are both very significantly (and, in the case of the second, almost entirely) questions of human organisation.

Reflect on the point I'm making. Atheism is not a principle for human co-operation. It says precisely nothing about values. We might be individualists, or socialist, or whatever. Those are positions that might define part of our identities, and suggest things that we collectively value or want to achieve.

For the sake of argument, "I don't want my children to receive religious instruction in school" might be an individual requirment. But it says nothing about what we will be teaching children in school. We might want a pluralist position "We'll teach all children about all religions in school, including the positiion of having no religion. So Muslim children will be told about atheism, as well as Allah." Or we might say "No religious instruction of any kind will take place, and the values informing any kind of social education will be drawn from the rules of the New York State Boxing Commission."

The point is that a political agenda will only emerge where a reasonably coherent social group share an outlook. Mayomen might be such a group, although I don't think educational reform is high on their collective agenda. Irish Atheism isn't a coherent social group, and so has no political significance.

Equality is a very important value that I have stated, and one which is not practiced by most organised religion. You are pre-occupied with organisation and grouping. Why do you think Athiests need to group together and create a charter? to what purpose? and you are lumping civil, corporate and religious groupings together. They are not necessarily linked.

It is no coincidence that women do not found religions, they are busy getting on with the business of life, in a naturally organised way. It is men who become obsessed with leading, preaching, grouping into silos. Organisation and grouping are not the same thing.

All children are born athiests, by virtue of not being exposed yet to any religious "teachings". Why indoctorinate them? Imagine a world where no religion existed at all......no racism, no homophobia, no patracial societies, fewer wars. Educated, articulate men and women who have equal opportunities.

GCU Flexible Demeanour

nowanathiest wrote: »

You are pre-occupied with organisation and grouping.

Well, I'm conscious that co-operation is an issue.

nowanathiest wrote: »

Why do you think Athiests need to group together and create a charter?

I don't. I suspect we lack the capacity, as we don't constitute a coherent social group with a common outlook.

nowanathiest wrote: »

Imagine a world where no religion existed at all......no racism, no homophobia, no patracial societies, fewer wars. Educated, articulate men and women who have equal opportunities.

If this is actually a view you want to be taken seriously, you'll simply have to engage with the issue of how you get people to co-operate. For starters, no religion most certainly doesn't mean no racism, any more than education does. Unless you think James Watson is ignorant, and a closet theist.

the culture of deference

GCU Flexible Demeanour wrote: »

A call to Catholic principles mobilises a section of the population, who share (at some level) a common outlook and objective. That's because Catholicism at least has some kind of a view on issues.

The problem is that the catlicks common outlook and objective's are bullsh1t, you are dealing with an indoctrinated bunch of morons who are incapable of logic, criticism or dealing with reality.

I have posted before that classifying yourself as deeply religious or a person of deep faith should automatically disbar you from serving in any position of authority.

nowanathiest wrote: »

Religious people always make me smile when they trot out the old "how can you believe in nothing" line. They are the ones who believe in nothing, i.e fairytales about gods, devils, afterlife, good and evil, and they never appear to perceive the irony of it.

Atheism for me is about taking personal responsibility for my life. I'm not waiting for anyone to tell me how I should or shouldn't live. I don't believe in Santa, the tooth fairy, luck or fate. It's about equality, scientific endeavour and a desire to improve life for all and being part of an organisation is not necessary to accomplish these things. That is just an administrative function.

Currently all religions are run by men, mainly for the benefit of men. Some are mysogonistic (Catholic & Muslim in particular) racist and homophobic. Hardly the type of ideals to be instilling in the next generation.

I posted a thread here before asking why women would support rcc in any form.

nowanathiest

I have long wondered the same myself and I suppose the answer is that you have to be a strong woman to defy your upbringing.

The RCC actually depends on women to survive........the contraceptive ban ensured that couples had lots of kids, thus lots of new recruits for RCC. The abortion ban serves the same function. Once the children arrive they are swiftly baptized into the group, sent to RCC schools........they are now in the system for life. It's crucially important that women as mothers progress this.

GCU Flexible Demeanour

the culture of deference wrote: »

I have posted before that classifying yourself as deeply religious or a person of deep faith should automatically disbar you from serving in any position of authority

Grand. Easy to say. Now find a way of mobilising political opinion, just as would make your adolescent power fantasy a reality.

nowanathiest wrote: »

I have long wondered the same myself and I suppose the answer is that you have to be a strong woman to defy your upbringing.

The RCC actually depends on women to survive........

So you're saying that women are weak and stupid?


I'd have thought that, typically, for an organisation to effectively mobilise social support, it has to be delivering something that people feel is necessary. In other words, if you found (as you assert) that the Church's power depends on women's support, that women's support would be grounded in women (as in, women who provide that support) feeling that the Church was delivering them some necessary benefit. I'd have thought, too, that the benefit would have to be something tangible and current, and not just some nebulous suggestion about an afterlife.

But I'm always open to being educated. Can you give us a bit more detail on how women can be so misguided - how people can be quite so deluded about their self-interest?

nowanathiest

GCU Flexible Demeanour wrote: »

Grand. Easy to say. Now find a way of mobilising political opinion, just as would make your adolescent power fantasy a reality.So you're saying that women are weak and stupid?


I'd have thought that, typically, for an organisation to effectively mobilise social support, it has to be delivering something that people feel is necessary. In other words, if you found (as you assert) that the Church's power depends on women's support, that women's support would be grounded in women (as in, women who provide that support) feeling that the Church was delivering them some necessary benefit. I'd have thought, too, that the benefit would have to be something tangible and current, and not just some nebulous suggestion about an afterlife.

But I'm always open to being educated. Can you give us a bit more detail on how women can be so misguided - how people can be quite so deluded about their self-interest?

Nope, I am not a Psychologist. I haven't got a clue what the reason is and if anyone else does I'd love to be enlightened.