District Court what to expect?

Albany22

I am appearing in the District Court in a few weeks for a theft charge. I am extremely worried and anxious about it. The charge is for shoplifting €130 woth of items, I was stupid and have been paying the price for the last year. I will NEVER be in trouble with the law again.

I would like to know what to expect on the day do cases run on time or do you wait all day to be called? Will I have to speak or will my Solicitor do it all? My Solicitor is asking that I am not convicted as it will affect my work if I am - if I am not convicted could this mean I will get a probation report and if so does that mean a second court appearance in a couple of months?

Any information would be very helpful as I am at my wits end with worry

jd80

Will you be pleading guilty on that date or is it a procedural date?

Have you previously been convicted of anything?

Have you made amends to the person/company from whom who stole the items?

As regards when you case is called - it depends where it is in the list for that day.

The lists are usually printed out and available in the court that day. You get a rough idea when the case will be heard

Also, your solicitor usually receives same the day before and he can tell you where you are.

Do not attempt to come late even if the case is scheduled for later in the day.

Be there at the commencement of court even if you have to sit there all day. Cases get struck out etc. and yours could be heard sooner than planned.

Dress smartly

BRAIN FEEDs

Judge may ask the prosecutor if the items were returned?

you,personally,will be asked by the judge,if you want the case tried in the district court or the circuit court,your solicitor will advise you what to say.

Albany22

Yes pleading guilty Jd80. I have paid the company a fine they issued to me. My case is for 10.30am, should I be prepared to wait until afternoon to be called or even the following day? If I was to receive the probation act would this result in another court date and would another summons for this be issued or not?

Albany22

This is the date on the summons and my first court appearance - no other convictions

BRAIN FEEDs

Albany22 wrote: »

Yes pleading guilty Jd80. I have paid the company a fine they issued to me. My case is for 10.30am, should I be prepared to wait until afternoon to be called or even the following day? If I was to receive the probation act would this result in another court date and would another summons for this be issued or not?

i have no idea what the judge will reccomend for you,but probation??? i wouldnt think so,based on you having no previous etc.

EDIT::: ive no idea,ignore above.....sorry

but you still didnt say whether the goods were returned...........

Albany22

Sorry, Yes goods were returned immediately

jd80

Op is referring to the Probation Act 1907 Section 1

RainyDay

Albany22 wrote: »

I have paid the company a fine they issued to me.

I thought the point of paying such a fine was to avoid prosecution. What's the point in paying their 'fine' if you're going to be fined again by the Court?

ResearchWill

OP usually if the Judge decides to invoke the Probation Act he does so on the day, sometimes he may adjourn the matter to see if the accused stays well behaved.

The Act http://www.probation.ie/pws/websitepublishing.nsf/attachmentsbytitle/Probation+of+Offenders+Act+1907/$file/Probation+of+Offenders+Act+1907.pdf

coylemj

RainyDay wrote: »

I thought the point of paying such a fine was to avoid prosecution. What's the point in paying their 'fine' if you're going to be fined again by the Court?

Exactly, it sounds almost like extortion - making the offender pay a 'fine' probably under the mistaken impression that if he pays such a fine there will be no prosecution even though they've already called the Gardai and are determined to prosecute one way or the other..

OP, it would be no harm to get your solicitor to mention that the store squeezed money out of you, they are not entitled to do this, certainly not until after the court case.

But - did the theft involve perishable goods or goods which by their nature couldn't be put back on the shelf? In that case the store might have had a case for asking you to pay up for the loss of the goods there and then but technically they should have waited for the court case and mentioned 'expenses' to the judge or taken a civil case against you after the criminal stuff has been dealt with.

RandolphEsq

Double jeopardy OP for that fine you paid!

jd80

We'll have to see exactly what she meant by 'fine' and the circumstances surrounding same.

mcgarrett

From what you have said OP, you would be entitled to an Adult caution.


http://www.garda.ie/Documents/User/adult%20cautioning%20final%20for%20publication.pdf

coylemj

mcgarrett wrote: »

From what you have said OP, you would be entitled to an Adult caution.


http://www.garda.ie/Documents/User/adult%20cautioning%20final%20for%20publication.pdf

Did you read this paragraph....

Nothing in the Scheme shall interfere with the discretion of a member of An Garda Síochána to prosecute a person for an offence scheduled under the Scheme if the member believes that the application of the Scheme would not be appropriate, having regard to the circumstances of the offence or the antecedents of the person.


Which basically says that if the Garda decides to prosecute, there is no caution which in turns means there is no entitlement to a caution.

If there was an entitlement to a caution, it would put the onus on the DPP and/or the Gardai to show why someone should not get a caution, the text above clearly shows that this is not the case.

If you're basing the claim of 'entitlement' (to a caution) on the fact that the OP paid over money to the injured party, this paragraph from that document is relevant...

While an offer of compensation may be a feature which might properly support the decision to caution, the decision to administer the caution cannot be conditional upon the satisfactory completion of a specific task such as payment of compensation to the victim.

jd80

whilst not being disparaging - not knowing the circumstances - it would seem from other posts that the OP already has one caution.

mcgarrett

coylemj wrote: »

Did you read this paragraph....

Nothing in the Scheme shall interfere with the discretion of a member of An Garda Síochána to prosecute a person for an offence scheduled under the Scheme if the member believes that the application of the Scheme would not be appropriate, having regard to the circumstances of the offence or the antecedents of the person.


Which basically says that if the Garda decides to prosecute, there is no caution which in turns means there is no entitlement to a caution.

If there was an entitlement to a caution, it would put the onus on the DPP and/or the Gardai to show why someone should not get a caution, the text above clearly shows that this is not the case.

If you're basing the claim of 'entitlement' (to a caution) on the fact that the OP paid over money to the injured party, this paragraph from that document is relevant...

While an offer of compensation may be a feature which might properly support the decision to caution, the decision to administer the caution cannot be conditional upon the satisfactory completion of a specific task such as payment of compensation to the victim.

"Entitled" was the wrong choice of word but there is nothing to stop the OP getting an adult caution. No previous convictions, no mention of a previous adult caution, value of goods, it is the decision of the District Officer as to whether a caution is applicable.

In a case like this it may be to the OP's benefit to enquire if it is an option.

ResearchWill

mcgarrett wrote: »

"Entitled" was the wrong choice of word but there is nothing to stop the OP getting an adult caution. No previous convictions, no mention of a previous adult caution, value of goods, it is the decision of the District Officer as to whether a caution is applicable.

In a case like this it may be to the OP's benefit to enquire if it is an option.

Not a dig at the OP but if you check the OP's post history you will see why an Adult Caution may not have been considered.

To the OP, the following advice is hard to follow but really is your best bet. "Don't worry" you have a professional who is looking after your best interests. This is not the end of the world yes at the moment it feels like that but it is not. Thankfully there is always the appeal if things in the DC don't go to plan.

You do not need to speak to the judge your solicitor can do all that for you, he may advice that you do speak to the judge but that will depend on you and the circumstances.

coylemj

mcgarrett wrote: »

No previous convictions, no mention of a previous adult caution, value of goods, it is the decision of the District Officer as to whether a caution is applicable.

In a case like this it may be to the OP's benefit to enquire if it is an option.

Value of the goods - €130. That's a little more than what you'd need to feed your starving children wouldn't you say? It's a full supermarket trolley.

I'd not bother mentioning the value of the goods stolen in pleading a case for a caution if it was me.

And as Researchwill has pointed out, there's form here. I don't think there's any case for a caution.

Albany22

No perishable goods or goods that could not be put back on the shelf.

The fine came from the company Solicitors and I paid it immediately - it did say in the letter that paying the fine would have no impact on police proceeding, but it was months later before I heard from the Guards.

I have previously recieved a caution. The Guard did tell me I may get a second caution (due to personal circumstances) but as I now have the summons and my solicitor tells me there is no chance of this happening.

ResearchWill

Albany22 wrote: »

No perishable goods or goods that could not be put back on the shelf.

The fine came from the company Solicitors and I paid it immediately - it did say in the letter that paying the fine would have no impact on police proceeding, but it was months later before I heard from the Guards.

I have previously recieved a caution. The Guard did tell me I may get a second caution (due to personal circumstances) but as I now have the summons and my solicitor tells me there is no chance of this happening.

A private company can not fine you. Have you told your solicitor this. Is it a fine or was or paying for the goods or did you return the goods and pay money. To be honest that does not sound right.

Albany22

Yes Solicitor knows he had never heard of this either and was surprised by it. Goods were returned and fine paid immediately, maybe this might stand in my favour (although Solicitor did not say this but he said he had never come across this before and thought the fine was harsh) I stupidly assumed after paying the fine I would hear no more but not the case

ResearchWill

Albany22 wrote: »

Yes Solicitor knows he had never heard of this either and was surprised by it. Goods were returned and fine paid immediately, maybe this might stand in my favour (although Solicitor did not say this but he said he had never come across this before and thought the fine was harsh) I stupidly assumed after paying the fine I would hear no more but not the case

I think the Judge would be very interested in that fine. I know of a judge or two who would "demand" that the official who fined you appear in court to explain himself and the companies stance. Please keep us informed, this could get very interesting indeed, that fine could equally be theft.

jd80

Op - If you are giving all the facts, then it certainly sounds that the company was 'chancing its arm' by issuing a 'fine' and it paid off for them

I question the legality of this - have they suffered any loss? The goods were given back immediately

How was the letter worded? What reason do they give for this 'fine' and do they name it as such?

Was this 'fine' also €130 or more?

It certainly comes across as bully tactics

You did give the items back AND pay for them

Your solicitor should certainly raise the point in Court that you gave the items back AND paid for them after being issued with a 'fine' - the manner in which the company acted should also be raised.

The judge may be interested in this - but do others agree here the OP would have nothing much to lose by bringing it up?

RainyDay

I came across these 'fines' before with one retailer. I think it was described as a 'fee' of some sort, rather than a fine. In that case, it was fairly clear from memory that if you paid the fee/fine, they wouldn't proceed with prosecution.

coylemj

Albany22 wrote: »

Goods were returned and fine paid immediately,

Could you tell us what form of wording the solicitors used to describe the 'fine' they asked you to pay?

coylemj

RainyDay wrote: »

I came across these 'fines' before with one retailer. I think it was described as a 'fee' of some sort, rather than a fine. In that case, it was fairly clear from memory that if you paid the fee/fine, they wouldn't proceed with prosecution.

That's called blackmail.

In the OP's case the solicitors who wrote to him asking/demanding/requesting him to pay the 'fine' did at least emphasis that paying the fine would not affect the decision to prosecute/not prosecute so it can't be categorised in his case as blackmail.

Albany22 wrote: »

The fine came from the company Solicitors and I paid it immediately - it did say in the letter that paying the fine would have no impact on police proceeding, but it was months later before I heard from the Guards.

Despite this, the letter achieved the objective in that the OP did think it would stave off a prosecution......

Albany22 wrote: »

I stupidly assumed after paying the fine I would hear no more but not the case

He also told us that the goods were not perishable and were of the type that could be put back on the shelf immediately so it appears that the store was at no monetary loss as a result of the theft which makes it very peculiar that a firm of solicitors would then ask him to pay a 'fine' prior to the court case.

I suspect they wrapped it up as 'expenses' which is also peculiar because at that stage there was no decision to prosecute so none of the store's employees had yet to go to court to give evidence and perhaps be covered by colleagues on overtime.

I hope the OP's solicitor raises this in court and am interested to hear if the judge passes comment on the practice.

jd80

OP

why not type up the wording of the letter here?

Leave all names out of it.

RainyDay

Here's one that I came across from a friend who ran into problems with a large UK retail chain. My memory was faulty, so you can see that the paperwork explicitly states that payment of the fine does not mean that you avoid prosecution.

Fred Swanson

This post has been deleted.

Qwikpix

Fred Swanson wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Here is a link to a relevant report published by the UK Citizens Advice Bureau:
www.citizensadvice.org.uk/unreasonable_demands_final.pdf

The report describes the operation of civil recovery demands in the UK.

Concerning the forthcoming District Court case, the OP ought to ensure that her solicitor is made fully aware of whatever civil recovery demand was sent to her and whatever amount she paid so that the full details may be made available to the Court.