Interior insulation on walls in poor condition

Loula123

Hello,
I'm trying to renovate my house. I have had the old windows replaced and big chunks of the concrete walls were also removed in the process. I presumed that the builder was going to plaster the rough areas with concrete and asked him twice to "fill in the holes" but he seems to have just put insulation boards in front of the walls. The house is nearly 100 years old. It seems stupid to put up so much insulation when chunks of the wall are missing? Is this important at all because I'll have to get him to redo all the work?
Thank you.

newbie2013

Pics ?

Loula123

I know the house isn't going to fall down- I just wonder is this best practice?

Merch

your pictures are dark and poor, other than the first image where there seems to be something leaning against the wall, I cant see any insulation.

Why dont you ask the builder why any holes arent filled, maybe they are waiting on something else to happen? or doing something else.

Maybe they are waiting for you to get someone to plaster it or are waiting on you to tell them what you want, fill holes and plaster the solid wall are different things.

Personally Id imagine the exterior walls would be plastered level and then slabbed with insulated or foil backed plaster board as this will reduce heat loss through the old (solid?) wall.
Id put in as much insulation as practical/cost allowable.

(Im not a builder, just an interested DIYer, that wants to internally insulate my own walls)

Loula123

Sorry about the pics. They're from my ipod. They are of the walls prior to the insulation boards being put up. Now all you can see are the insulation boards because they are hiding the holes. I am going to ask the builders but I wanted some feedback on whether it's a stupid question or not- does it matter that the walls are in poor condition? Am I entitled to ask them to do it all again? (I don't know anything about building.) They would have to take down the insulation to fill in the holes. Thanks.

Loula123

No they're not waiting on me for anything. But you do think the external walls should have been plastered level on the inside before the insulation boards were put up? (That was really my question that I phrased badly.)

BryanF

Loula123 wrote: »

No they're not waiting on me for anything. But you do think the external walls should have been plastered level on the inside before the insulation boards were put up? (That was really my question that I phrased badly.)

You say your house is 100years old? I would seek specialist involvement before drylining. Plaster holes in your window reveals will be the least of your problems if condensation is forming behind the drylining

Loula123

I'm not doing it myself- they are professional builders putting in the insulation. There are holes in the concrete brick part of the walls, not just the plaster. They've hidden the holes with the dry lining and plastered over that.
Will a gap behind the insulation board cause condensation problems?

MicktheMan

Loula123 wrote: »

(I don't know anything about building.)

Loula123 wrote: »

they are professional builders putting in the insulation.

So who is looking after your best interests?

As ByranF has said you need specialist input. I wouldn't be depending solely on the builder to model the moisture buildup in the walls after drylining. You might want to have a read of this (there are 4 or 5 articles in the series). Btw, this has nothing to do with the state of the original walls.

On a seperate note, I hate drylining for the same reason builders love it ... it hides whats behind! You, the customer will only notice when the cold wind starts to come through electeical sockets, under the skirting boards etc and you will wonder why you house is cold and/or uncomfortable.

Loula123

Thanks for your help. I'll see what the builders say tomorrow. Why can't they just do things properly!? I looked up about getting a surveyor in to do a snag list- €600.

Loula123

They said the plasterers filled in the holes from the sides after the insulation was put up. Good enough for me.

tred

Get someone who knows what they are at involved here. Drylining over 100 year walls is just masking problems down the line. In this case you are far better off moving the insulation to the outer wall. I have read a lot of online material lately reporting issues with drylining when applied to walls such as this. your possibly masking bigger problems behind it.

sydthebeat

Loula123 wrote: »

Thanks for your help. I'll see what the builders say tomorrow. Why can't they just do things properly!? I looked up about getting a surveyor in to do a snag list- €600.

a snag list is no good to you as that just comments on the finishes.

if you carry out work like this, to such old dwellings, without professional input... these are the pit falls you will come across.

why do you think the plasters filling between the sheets is good enough?

"out of sight, out of mind" :rolleyes:

sinnerboy

Loula123 wrote: »

whether it's a stupid question or not- does it matter that the walls are in poor condition? Am I entitled to ask them to do it all again? (I don't know anything about building.)

Loula123 wrote: »

he seems to have just put insulation boards in front of the walls. The house is nearly 100 years old. It seems stupid to put up so much insulation when chunks of the wall are missing?

Loula123 wrote: »

they are professional builders putting in the insulation.

Loula123 wrote: »

Why can't they just do things properly!?

Loula123 wrote: »

I looked up about getting a surveyor in to do a snag list- €600.

Merch

tred wrote: »

Get someone who knows what they are at involved here. Drylining over 100 year walls is just masking problems down the line. In this case you are far better off moving the insulation to the outer wall. I have read a lot of online material lately reporting issues with drylining when applied to walls such as this. your possibly masking bigger problems behind it.

1, the Op needs professional advice, definitely.

I wonder about what you say above of the age of the house,
I'd have thought (and Im no expert) that the age wouldnt be the concern, although older houses may be of more concern (due to damp proofing or the lack of) and that any building with insulation just thrown in might cause moisture to be trapped between layers?

sinnerboy

An older property will tend to accrue dilapidations which may give rise to external wall dampness. Defective roof overhangs, rain water goods , render coats , pointings , flashings , cills , altered external levels can all conspire to result in a damp external wall. Dry lining will accelerate the problems .

You are right though to suggest that dry lining installed by likes of the OP's contractors can give rise to problesm in new properties also.

Loula123

But the builders are professionals. I tried to get a heating contractor to do the job and he told me to get my builders to do it. The question was about them leaving the walls in a poor condition before the insulation went up and they've said the plasterers filled in the holes from the sides. There was a point that I could have asked them to redo the work but now all the plastering is done and I've decided to trust them. It would be some fight to get them to redo it for free anyway when I can't prove they've done anything wrong here. I'm gathering from your posts that it's the insulation that is most important and not necessarily the condition of the original walls? Also I contacted that survey contractor and all he offered was to do up a snag list.

I know I should have gotten external insulation and did about a hundred things differently but I've spent 000s on this and changing my mind at this point just isn't an option.

Obviously I'm still concerned about what you're saying about condensation and moisture and I will keep an eye on the walls and drafts and see how it goes. Hopefully in the future I can get the external insulation or find something more appropriate and eco-friendly.

(I mentioned the age because I thought walls would deteriorate over time and maybe it was appropriate to get them re-inforced now. But maybe old walls are just as good? I've been told that it's a well-built house.)

Thank you for all your comments. I will definitely do more research next time!!

Loula123

What if I had external insulation ALSO? Will that fix the moisture dampness condensation problem?

sydthebeat

Loula123 wrote: »

But the builders are professionals.!

in all due respect, there is no qualification or registration necessary to call oneself a builder.

Its up to clients to determine if the person or company they engage to do a job is capable, qualified, educated, insured and experienced enough to do it.

Loula123

I know that's why I'm wondering how people have decided that they're not capable and qualified etc without telling me for sure that what they did was wrong. What professional am I supposed to hire?

sydthebeat

Loula123 wrote: »

I know that's why I'm wondering how people have decided that they're not capable and qualified etc without telling me for sure that what they did was wrong. What professional am I supposed to hire?

i think posters here have drawn their own conclusions judging by the pics you have posted, and by what you have said.

no one has actually come out and said they are not capable or qualified.

the most important post so far in this whole thread was "who is looking after your interests"?

any architect or architectural technician worth his salt will know how drylining boards are supposed to be applied.

see here for example

Mechanical Fixing Directly to Masonry Substrates
This method is for application to fair finished brick, block and
concrete cavity walls where Insulated Drylining Board
is to be finished with gypsum
plaster. The wall should be sound, dry and level (as surface
irregularities may impede fixing of the board). The board should
be fully restrained using mechanical fixings. The number and
type of such fixings should be in accordance with the fixing
supplierís recommendations, and should be evenly distributed
over the whole area of the board. Fixings should not overlap
board edges.

its not simply a case of slap it up and hide the gaps.

Loula123

Ok. Good answer! Thanks.

engineermike

Loula123 wrote: »

Thanks for your help. I'll see what the builders say tomorrow. Why can't they just do things properly!? I looked up about getting a surveyor in to do a snag list- €600.

Hi OP,
€600 sounds to be on the high side for a advisory report on the correct application of the insulation / method / material.
Depending on where you live, a structural engineers report strictly pertaining to Insulation & ventilation (i.e. 1 site visit & report of noted structure specifics -'observations' & 'recommended specifications' relating to insulation & ventilation)
would be in the region of €375 -500.

That professional cost would increase if you wanted a full scope of works for your nominated contractor & follow up 'snag list' of the level & quality of finish and workmanship etc.
The other poster's in the thread have given sound advice when querying " who is acting in your interest".
100 year only houses don't lend themselves to modern upgrades without overall property specifics taken into view.
*Living space background ventilation
*Wet room / moist areas ventilation
*Wall make up
*Roof ventilation
I wouldn't get to hung up on some patches that need to be 'made good'. Its difficult to tell from the photo's, but it is in keeping with best practice for your builder to patch large 'chunks' with concrete or cement render, and more minor patches 'bonding' is used by the plasterers during preparation & prior to skimming / plastering.
mf

Loula123

Ok thanks. I'll look for some more quotes for structural engineers. What happens if there is a problem with damp? Will it show through the plaster? Will it destroy the walls?

engineermike

Loula123 wrote: »

Ok thanks. I'll look for some more quotes for structural engineers. What happens if there is a problem with damp? Will it show through the plaster? Will it destroy the walls?

Hi Loula,
There are 3 causes of damp that are relevant to the work your having done.
-Rising damp, that's taking the current wall make up & building methods of the period (circa. 1900's) into account.
- Condensation between the materials that make up the wall, i.e how the wall 'breathes'
- Inadequate room ventilation.

Has your builder worked on many properties of that period ?
mf

Loula123

Just to clarify- it's 1920s. I did say nearly 100 years. They have worked on other houses in the area that were built at the same time. I don't know if they insulated them though. They seem to have paid a lot of attention to ventilation.

engineermike

Loula123 wrote: »

Just to clarify- it's 1920s. I did say nearly 100 years. They have worked on other houses in the area that were built at the same time. I don't know if they insulated them though. They seem to have paid a lot of attention to ventilation.

Hi Loula,
They are good indications - if the builder is local & has experience working on properties of that period (1920's).
Always a good idea to check in with a homeowner or two especially if they are local - to see what work the contractor did & what experience that customer had with them. If you don't want to ask the builder directly to refer you to a past customer or 2, just knock on their door & ask. I've been on that soap box for years - not judging contractors by the size of there ad's or flash new vehicles. Past work & actual homeowner feed back is golden when choosing a builder or trades person or indeed a professional.
The one thing that all the references or good reports of a given contractor is not going to circumvent is that each structure is individual and has its own site specifics, wear & tear & after market modifications.
This is where your independent professional advice is key. I doesn't matter to an engineer if the recommendations he or she makes are cost restrictive for a homeowner - there is only the right way of carrying out the work. However in our current economic climate & 'low price' driven market conditions only a small few contractors or companies will not compromise on the correct method or materials to be used or required extra works at risk of loosing the job based on price to another company. ("you pay for what you get, etc.")
I think that your engineers fee should be approx. 10% (or less) of the cost of the work you are proposing to do, money well spent in my mind - even if It looks like i'm promoting my own profession! - i'm big enough to admit that the few period properties I've owned & upgraded have taught me things each time and each structure is individual with 'personality' & 'problems' that are unique to it.
Mike F

Loula123

Thank you for the good advice Mike!