Those Forestry rights Irelands giving away

Squeaky the Squirrel

80 years of logging rights for a measly €600mil which will only pay the interest on all that extra "National Debt" for 3 weeks!

Impact Trade Union Report says

the State would remain liable for costs of €1.3 billion following a sale of harvesting rights, which include the funding of the agency’s future deficit and its pension deficit.

Theirs 10 Saw Mills employing 2500 which will lose x amount of Jobs through Amalgamation if the Buyers send the wood over seas for processing, adding potentially millions of future costs to the state.

And after the 80 years, the ground, currently fully planted, is handed back treeless with the Country to catch the Tab of resowing.

I don't understand how the halfwits can still be considering this? And to think it cost 35,000+ to come up with these nuggets.

http://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/irish-timber-council-sale-of-forestry-rights-puts-2500-jobs-at-risk-586165.html
http://www.thejournal.ie/forests-ireland-coillte-772661-Jan2013/
http://www.mountaineering.ie/news/viewdetails.asp?ID=780
http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/bord-snip-boss-paid-35000-for-just-45-days-26556782.html

Dwork

I was also under the impression that a certain Bertie was heavily involved in the purchase. They couldn't be getting a blinding bargain at all our expenses, could they? Much. Or anything.

wendell borton

Apt User name op.

Wibbs

What sort of stupidity from idiots is this?? :mad: You really couldn't make these crosseyed gobshítes and their gobshíte plans up. Whose idea was this? Which moron or quango of morons expensively oozed around a table dribbling on themselves was responsible? Jesus. All too often I see here and in RL people ranting about civil servants and IMHO that's really daft as they're ranting at ordinary people like themselves. Me, I'd go through the upper civil service and the quangos and so called advisors to the government with a big red pen

AK47

I see they interviewed Stephen Donnelly. Now while I don't agree with many of his ideas, hes one of the vanishingly tiny number of members of our parliament that is actually qualified to speak on fiscal matters. The rest are either outright jokes, spoiled votes made flesh, or failed teachers and accountants. AKA stupid Kuntz.

Worse how do we stop this kind of utter gobshítes.

Dwork

Wibbs wrote: »

What sort of stupidity from idiots is this?? :mad: You really couldn't make these crosseyed gobshítes and their gobshíte plans up. Whose idea was this? Which moron or quango of morons expensively oozed around a table dribbling on themselves was responsible? Jesus. All too often I see here and in RL people ranting about civil servants and IMHO that's really daft as they're ranting at ordinary people like themselves. Me, I'd go through the upper civil service and the quangos and so called advisors to the government with a big red pen

AK47

I see they interviewed Stephen Donnelly. Now while I don't agree with many of his ideas, hes one of the vanishingly tiny number of members of our parliament that is actually qualified to speak on fiscal matters. The rest are either outright jokes, spoiled votes made flesh, or failed teachers and accountants. AKA stupid Kuntz.

Worse how do we stop this kind of utter gobshítes.

Is it stupidity though? Or is it somthing a bit worse? We do seem to have pols that like giving stuff away cheaply. I wonder do any of them benefit from these decisions, like after they retire? Doubtful, I know, sure they're all saints working in our best interests, God bless em.

steddyeddy

Is that true that we would be the only country in the world without a state forest? Either way it's a disgrace to sell off what little forest we have remaining to pay off a debt! Whoever agrees to this is a traitor!

bgrizzley

jesus h christ, i heard they were selling and i was giving the benefit of the doubt, but that is after raising my blood pressure father than anything since this shower of fcuking scumbags got into governement. AGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH:mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad:

squod

We should chop the trees down, take them home and hide them under the stairs before they're sold off. That'll teach them!

JJayoo

Politicians/bankers are here for a good time not a long time. Look at Bertie, he made his cash and has now retired on a huge pension.

martic

That video is nearly as hateful to watch as this :mad:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=76VOnzXQMsU

Dwork

bgrizzley wrote: »

jesus h christ, i heard they were selling and i was giving the benefit of the doubt, but that is after raising my blood pressure father than anything since this shower of fcuking scumbags got into governement. AGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH:mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad:

It's AH, not confession. Say two Hail Marys and relax ya batty, my son.

Justice!

If only we had some Ents... They'd sort the Government out in no time. Saruman was a wizard and he didnt last long!

Kess73

Dwork wrote: »

I was also under the impression that a certain Bertie was heavily involved in the purchase. They couldn't be getting a blinding bargain at all our expenses, could they? Much. Or anything.

http://www.independent.ie/business/irish/ahernlinked-firm-wants-coillte-broken-up-and-sold-26751421.html

AlmightyCushion

What a load of nonsense. The state will still own forests, we're just selling off the harvesting rights for the commercially grown trees. These will be cut down anyway regardless of if the rights get sold off or not.

Phill Ewinn

AlmightyCushion wrote: »

What a load of nonsense. The state will still own forests, we're just selling off the harvesting rights for the commercially grown trees. These will be cut down anyway regardless of if the rights get sold off or not.

Can't trade carbon for treeless forests.

MarkHitide

AlmightyCushion wrote: »

What a load of nonsense. The state will still own forests, we're just selling off the harvesting rights for the commercially grown trees. These will be cut down anyway regardless of if the rights get sold off or not.

In the next logical step:
Sell a kidney now, you're going to die anyway.

Wibbs

AlmightyCushion wrote: »

What a load of nonsense. The state will still own forests, we're just selling off the harvesting rights for the commercially grown trees. These will be cut down anyway regardless of if the rights get sold off or not.

Did you even watch the video or read the links AC?

For those on mobies, or for the lazy of fingers, a few highlights;

The proposed sale of Coillte’s harvesting rights could lead to the closure of all ten of Ireland’s sawmills with the loss of 2,500 jobs, according to the Irish Timber Council

The report, commissioned by the Coillte branch of the Impact trade union, says the State would remain liable for costs of €1.3 billion following a sale of harvesting rights. To cover these costs, which include the funding of the agency’s future deficit and its pension deficit, Coillte would need to sell at €78 per square metre, which is “well above current or recent prices”.

The Government’s “decision in principal” would see the future sale of 75 per cent of Coillte timber for a period of 80 years.

“There is no basis in these prices for assuming that this would be achieved,” continued the report, entitled Assessment of the Consequences of the Proposed Sale of Coillte’s Timber Harvesting Rights. “This means that, rather than generating State income, a sale of Coillte harvesting rights would represent a substantial cost to the exchequer.

The report says the overall result of the Government’s proposal would effectively liquidate Coillte as a viable entity.”

Here's said report(PDF file)

So for a a few weeks interest charges, we'll end up with fewer jobs and more expense down the line that we'll have to pay for? yea that's a clever plan alright. 35 grand for that kind of advice? Jesus I'm no brains trust so sign me up, I'll come up with equally daft for 20 grand. Can't say fairer than that.

dr.bollocko

This was covered on Primetime a few weeks ago also. All the links contain news from a few weeks ago... Is there any update on the sale?

Wibbs

The worrying words Dr B are "decision in principle". Often translated as we've pretty much signed the papers. Hope I'm very wrong, but look back at that Sherlock guys internet stuff. They pretty mush held the debate after it had gone through. It's beyond maddening.

frfintanstack

Wibbs wrote: »

The report, commissioned by the Coillte branch of the Impact trade union......

Shock horror they think its a bad idea

Hope they didn't waste too much of our national forest printing this propaganda.

SEPT 23 1989

Tree+Bertie=brown envelope

TakeTheVeil

Is there any organised protest about this sale? I'd love to get out there and make my opinion known on this matter

Truncheon Rouge

MarkHitide wrote: »

Sell a kidney now, you're going to die anyway.

hmmmmmmmm ??..... could buy iphone 5 and property in Bulgaria

My name is URL

There's a petition on the go regarding this.

http://www.thepetitionsite.com/2/help-save-irelands-forests/

They're looking for 100,000 signatures and are up to almost 37,000 already. I know petitions are a bit lazy and mostly ineffectual and all, but there's no harm in signing and sharing it if you care enough about the situation.

My name is URL

Dwork wrote: »

I was also under the impression that a certain Bertie was heavily involved in the purchase. They couldn't be getting a blinding bargain at all our expenses, could they? Much. Or anything.

An investment firm (Helvetia Wealth) have expressed an interest in purchasing it. They own the International Forestry Fund, of which Bertie is Chairman!

http://www.forestry-fund.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=52&Itemid=77

You almost couldn't make it up...

Red Kev

Bertie Ahern has been involved in this for some time, either way he has no say in the process, it's up to FG/Lab to decide if the land is to be sold or not, so it's them we should be targetting.

AlmightyCushion

Wibbs wrote: »

Did you even watch the video or read the links AC?

For those on mobies, or for the lazy of fingers, a few highlights;

The proposed sale of Coillte’s harvesting rights could lead to the closure of all ten of Ireland’s sawmills with the loss of 2,500 jobs, according to the Irish Timber Council

The report, commissioned by the Coillte branch of the Impact trade union, says the State would remain liable for costs of €1.3 billion following a sale of harvesting rights. To cover these costs, which include the funding of the agency’s future deficit and its pension deficit, Coillte would need to sell at €78 per square metre, which is “well above current or recent prices”.

The Government’s “decision in principal” would see the future sale of 75 per cent of Coillte timber for a period of 80 years.

“There is no basis in these prices for assuming that this would be achieved,” continued the report, entitled Assessment of the Consequences of the Proposed Sale of Coillte’s Timber Harvesting Rights. “This means that, rather than generating State income, a sale of Coillte harvesting rights would represent a substantial cost to the exchequer.

The report says the overall result of the Government’s proposal would effectively liquidate Coillte as a viable entity.”

Here's said report(PDF file)

So for a a few weeks interest charges, we'll end up with fewer jobs and more expense down the line that we'll have to pay for? yea that's a clever plan alright. 35 grand for that kind of advice? Jesus I'm no brains trust so sign me up, I'll come up with equally daft for 20 grand. Can't say fairer than that.

Yes, I've read them. Donnelly has lost any credibility with me because he is still bleating on about Ireland bailing out the EU banking sector and saying that we're selling off our forests and that the people of this country will be denied access to them by a foreigner. These are both ridiculous claims to any one who has half a clue.

The claim that thousands of jobs *could* be lost is based on all the processing of the timber being done abroad. Exporting logs is extremely expensive so I'd like to see what this claim is based on and how likely it is before I start calling this a terrible idea. It's like me saying that if you drive to work you could hit someone and kill them. It doesn't mean it is likely to happen though. I'd like to see more than just some guy reckons it could cost thousands of jobs. If the likelihood of jobs being lost is very small then it would be worth the risk for the potential pay off. If the likelihood is very high, then obviously it wouldn't. Although, if it is very high that means timber production here is very expensive and is being propped up by the tax payer at a high cost. If this is the case then this is something that needs to be addressed by the government not supported for the next 80 years.

AlmightyCushion

Wibbs wrote: »

Did you even watch the video or read the links AC?

For those on mobies, or for the lazy of fingers, a few highlights;

The proposed sale of Coillte’s harvesting rights could lead to the closure of all ten of Ireland’s sawmills with the loss of 2,500 jobs, according to the Irish Timber Council

The report, commissioned by the Coillte branch of the Impact trade union, says the State would remain liable for costs of €1.3 billion following a sale of harvesting rights. To cover these costs, which include the funding of the agency’s future deficit and its pension deficit, Coillte would need to sell at €78 per square metre, which is “well above current or recent prices”.

The Government’s “decision in principal” would see the future sale of 75 per cent of Coillte timber for a period of 80 years.

“There is no basis in these prices for assuming that this would be achieved,” continued the report, entitled Assessment of the Consequences of the Proposed Sale of Coillte’s Timber Harvesting Rights. “This means that, rather than generating State income, a sale of Coillte harvesting rights would represent a substantial cost to the exchequer.

The report says the overall result of the Government’s proposal would effectively liquidate Coillte as a viable entity.”

Here's said report(PDF file)

So for a a few weeks interest charges, we'll end up with fewer jobs and more expense down the line that we'll have to pay for? yea that's a clever plan alright. 35 grand for that kind of advice? Jesus I'm no brains trust so sign me up, I'll come up with equally daft for 20 grand. Can't say fairer than that.

Yes, I've read them. Donnelly has lost any credibility with me because he is still bleating on about Ireland bailing out the EU banking sector and saying that we're selling off our forests and that the people of this country will be denied access to them by a foreigner. These are both ridiculous claims to any one who has half a clue.

The claim that thousands of jobs *could* be lost is based on all the processing of the timber being done abroad. Exporting logs is extremely expensive so I'd like to see what this claim is based on and how likely it is before I start calling this a terrible idea. It's like me saying that if you drive to work you could hit someone and kill them. It doesn't mean it is likely to happen though. I'd like to see more than just some guy reckons it could cost thousands of jobs. If the likelihood of jobs being lost is very small then it would be worth the risk for the potential pay off. If the likelihood is very high, then obviously it wouldn't. Although, if it is very high that means timber production here is very expensive and is being propped up by the tax payer at a high cost. If this is the case then this is something that needs to be addressed by the government not supported for the next 80 years.

Dwork

AlmightyCushion wrote: »

Yes, I've read them. Donnelly has lost any credibility with me because he is still bleating on about Ireland bailing out the EU banking sector and saying that we're selling off our forests and that the people of this country will be denied access to them by a foreigner. These are both ridiculous claims to any one who has half a clue.

The claim that thousands of jobs *could* be lost is based on all the processing of the timber being done abroad. Exporting logs is extremely expensive so I'd like to see what this claim is based on and how likely it is before I start calling this a terrible idea. It's like me saying that if you drive to work you could hit someone and kill them. It doesn't mean it is likely to happen though. I'd like to see more than just some guy reckons it could cost thousands of jobs. If the likelihood of jobs being lost is very small then it would be worth the risk for the potential pay off. If the likelihood is very high, then obviously it wouldn't. Although, if it is very high that means timber production here is very expensive and is being propped up by the tax payer at a high cost. If this is the case then this is something that needs to be addressed by the government not supported for the next 80 years.

The fly in the ointment is the ongoing maintenance of the forests, the ongoing debt servicing for historical land acquisitions by Coillte, establisment costs that are leveraged and still being serviced, pension liabilities, insurance costs, road network maintenance and funding, and a long, long list of other costs will still lie with Coillte.

The "income" from the sale of the harvesting rights lags these costs by a country mile. In other words, you, me and joe taxpayer inc. will fund all these costs. Another interest, "Big Private timber fund" lets call them, will have the harvesting rights and derive the income from timber sales, which they will have agreed and "paid" already, assuming they actually "pay". Far more likely they will arrange a financial instrument to defer and defray the up-front costs on fantastic terms you and I could only dream of, or issue a private bond to raise the sum as debt with incremental payment as installment.

Either way, this is a crappy, crappy deal for "Ireland". But then, that's really nothing new.

Chinasea

Absolutely no way to this. But, it shouldn't ALL be about the commerciality of our forests, the focus really should be on the sustainability, beneficial ecology and progressive planting which would not necessarily be a worry to the unions (sadly but unsurprisingly).

18 million visits per year to Irish forests - that is very impressive, (the cynic in me would wonder how many of these visits are to fly tip).