Let on for free - then fined

Andrelfc

What would happen if you had no fare,and the bus driver let You on for free and you were then fined regardless of what the bus driver says. Would you have a case of appealing the fine ?

coylemj

You either accept the fine or reward the bus driver's generosity by getting him into trouble for knowingly carrying a passenger who hadn't paid any fare.

Your choice.

Peppa Pig

I doubt the bus driver has the right to allow you to travel for free. I understand his generosity but he simply turned a blind eye. You traveled with no ticket.
It will do no harm to you appealing but I would imagine you could get the bus driver into a lot of trouble for being decent.

the groutch

the driver is not a ticket inspector, he has no say in whether you get a fine or not.

foggy_lad

The driver is an agent of the company and if they allow you to travel free then you cant be fined!

bk

What about the situation where the leap card validator wasn't working so the driver waived you on?

I've had this happen a large number of times (the leap validators seem to be down a lot) and while I've never seen an inspector, I've always wondered what would happen if one came on?

faceman

foggy_lad wrote: »

The driver is an agent of the company and if they allow you to travel free then you cant be fined!

^ this.

corktina

foggy_lad wrote: »

The driver is an agent of the company and if they allow you to travel free then you cant be fined!

Yes I agree, IF you can prove he let you on without paying.

Akrasia

foggy_lad wrote: »

The driver is an agent of the company and if they allow you to travel free then you cant be fined!

Exactly

I used to work in a shop and sometimes someone would be a few pence short of money to pay for some item and I'd usually let them have it as a gesture of goodwill.

If that person was then stopped by a security guard and asked to produce a receipt showing full payment, they wouldn't be guilty of theft.

The Bus Driver may have felt that it was reasonable to let the passenger travel on this occasion as a gesture of good will in a case of genuine need. This would/should not reflect badly on the driver, they ought to have a bit of leeway to make these kinds of decisions as a bit of very cheap positive PR for the company. However, once the driver made the decision, the passenger is absolutely not guilty of an offense and the ticket inspector issuing a fine in this circumstance was a moron and is doing the company's reputation a lot of harm

Peppa Pig

foggy_lad wrote: »

The driver is an agent of the company and if they allow you to travel free then you cant be fined!

The bye laws of Dublin Bus make some interesting reading. DB Website

Each passenger when boarding a vehicle operated by a driver only shall:
(a) inform the driver of his intended destination, and
(b) except the passenger is already in possession of a valid ticket, pay the appropriate fare for such journey and ensure that he has been issued with a valid ticket and retain such ticket

I read that as the passenger's responsibility to get a ticket. But further down, this is the strange bit...

Any person found without a valid ticket on a vehicle by an authorised person shall pay the standard fare immediately upon the request of the authorised person or within the period of 21 days from the time the request is made and such fare may be recovered by the Company as a simple contract debt in any court of competent jurisdiction

No mention of a fine there.
Edit - but it's covered in what is a standard fare

a standard fare which means you must pay a penalty of €100

Akrasia

That's all well and good, but there are circumstances where a passenger may not have a valid ticket for reasons beyond their control, eg, the ticket machine was broken or they missed the stop and ended up travelling a bit too far by mistake

The ticket inspector should have a bit of cop on to recognise when someone was deliberately trying to skip the fare, or if there was a genuine reason or mistake and the Bus Driver should have a bit of leeway to allow people to travel where they may not have a valid ticket (eg, secondary school student travels by bus every day and has an annual travel card but this time he forgot it. the bus driver recognises the student and lets him travel but tells him to not Forget it next time.)

rx8

First of all, you started the thread with, "What would happen if..." So I take it that it didn't happen to you.
IF you don't have enough, or NO money at all, then you go to the driver, tell him/her that you are short/broke and ask them to carry you. Once you seem to be genuine then you should have no problem. Drivers are human too, and we know that people can sometimes get caught out. If an inspector gets on, the driver will inform them that you are on board, and you will not be embarrassed.
One thing though..... don't come back tomorrow with the same story, as it will most likely be the same driver, and you will be told where to go.!

As for when ticket machines are broken, etc... then passengers are carried for free, as we cannot give you a receipt for your fare.

schemingbohemia

Akrasia wrote: »

That's all well and good, but there are circumstances where a passenger may not have a valid ticket for reasons beyond their control, eg, the ticket machine was broken or they missed the stop and ended up travelling a bit too far by mistake

The ticket inspector should have a bit of cop on to recognise when someone was deliberately trying to skip the fare, or if there was a genuine reason or mistake and the Bus Driver should have a bit of leeway to allow people to travel where they may not have a valid ticket (eg, secondary school student travels by bus every day and has an annual travel card but this time he forgot it. the bus driver recognises the student and lets him travel but tells him to not Forget it next time.)

How is travelling further than their ticket allows by mistake not the passenger's responsibility or within their control?

rx8

schemingbohemia wrote: »

How is travelling further than their ticket allows by mistake not the passenger's responsibility or within their control?

People fall asleep on buses all the time. If the bus gets to the terminus, then most likely, the driver will bring you back to where you wanted to go, otherwise you might have to cross over and get some other bus back.

schemingbohemia

rx8 wrote: »

People fall asleep on buses all the time. If the bus gets to the terminus, then most likely, the driver will bring you back to where you wanted to go, otherwise you might have to cross over and get some other bus back.

I know that, I just fail to see how it isn't their own responsibility. I know most drivers are sound and would bring you back for free, I'm just pointing out how it is the passenger's responsibility to stay awake.

A mate of mine fell asleep on a 39N years ago, woke up in the middle of nowhere and in a panic pressed the button and hopped off, took him an hour to walk home. All he had to do was ask the driver to let him stay on for the return journey and he'd have been dropped to his door.

foggy_lad

corktina wrote: »

Yes I agree, IF you can prove he let you on without paying.

Your word against the driver's unless other passengers overheard you being given the "go ahead".

Peppa Pig wrote: »

The bye laws of Dublin Bus make some interesting reading. DB Website

I read that as the passenger's responsibility to get a ticket. But further down, this is the strange bit...

No mention of a fine there.
Edit - but it's covered in what is a standard fare

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1996/en/si/0394.html

PASSENGER BEHAVIOUR

39. Each passenger shall comply with any lawful direction given him by an authorised person, including a request to leave or not to board the vehicle.

It can easily be argued that a passenger is not to know whether directions given by an authorised person are lawful or not and that by virtue of the driver being an authorised representative of the company any direction they give should be considered lawful as not following such direction could itself be deemed unlawful!

doubletrouble?

Andrelfc wrote: »

What would happen if you had no fare,and the bus driver let You on for free and you were then fined regardless of what the bus driver says. Would you have a case of appealing the fine ?

simple answer is no. while most drivers dont like leaving people if they've no fare, most do make a point of " if an inspector gets on he'll fine you and it's nothing to do with me". then onus is on you. it's up to you whether you risk staying on the bus or getting off.

AlekSmart

doubletrouble? wrote: »

Simple answer is no. while most drivers dont like leaving people if they've no fare, most do make a point of " if an inspector gets on he'll fine you and it's nothing to do with me". then onus is on you. it's up to you whether you risk staying on the bus or getting off.

Up until the 1996 Dublin Bus Bye-Laws the Conductor had a significantly greater role in collecting fares off everybody on the bus.

In the event of a person not having enough money or another reason for a non-collection the Conductor would have to fill in an Unpaid-Fare Report,having obtained the passengers name and address.

However,it is worth remarking that the failure of LeapCard transactions is posing quite a problem,with Ticket Machines "Freeziing" with a red-light status,in this case,as with any other Ticket Equipment failure The Driver would inform the RCU Inspector when they boarded,so It would be highly unlikely a check would be performed.

Drivers are no longer issued with "Emergency Ticket Packs" as was the case pre the 1996 Bye-Laws and the standing instruction today is to contact the Controller and follow whatever instructions are given,usually an Instruction to operate Free of Charge until a change of Bus is arranged.

I would have to state that Operating as a Free Journey is just about the most difficult thing to do,mainly because people are conditioned to paying or validating their tickets and will attempt to go through the process no matter how loudly you say KEEP GOING-MACHINE BROKEN-FREE JOURNEY etc etc....Usually attempting to operate in Free Journey mode takes FAR longer than Fare Collection,as each person pauses,tries again or simply stares at the Driver awaiting their ticket !!!

bk

AlekSmart wrote: »

However,it is worth remarking that the failure of LeapCard transactions is posing quite a problem,with Ticket Machines "Freeziing" with a red-light status,in this case,as with any other Ticket Equipment failure The Driver would inform the RCU Inspector when they boarded,so It would be highly unlikely a check would be performed.

Thanks for the clarification Alek, given that it seems to happen to me so frequently, it is a relief to know that it wouldn't lead to a fine.

It is really shocking to me how frequently the Leap validators are down, if it is as widespread as it seems to me, it most be costing DB serious money now.

I have to say though, from a customer perspective, leap is turning into a real bonus, not only cheaper fares, but free fares from time to time too !!

AlekSmart wrote: »

I would have to state that Operating as a Free Journey is just about the most difficult thing to do,mainly because people are conditioned to paying or validating their tickets and will attempt to go through the process no matter how loudly you say KEEP GOING-MACHINE BROKEN-FREE JOURNEY etc etc....Usually attempting to operate in Free Journey mode takes FAR longer than Fare Collection,as each person pauses,tries again or simply stares at the Driver awaiting their ticket !!!

As a driver, you really have a front row seat looking on odd human behaviour !!

doubletrouble?

well said and put above alek but from what i can gather from the opening post is this.they want to use dublin bus charity transport. intending passenger gets on tells the driver they've no money to pay their fare to get home. as you know the driver has a number of options incl the one i pointed out. they can let the passenger on whilst informing them that if an inspector does get on it it's nothing to do with the driver. so now the onus is off the driver completely. at this point the passenger can make the decision on whether to risk traveling on the bus with no valid ticket or make alternative arrangements.
there is a difference between faulty equipment and someone who couldn't be arsed paying their fare giving some speil about not having any money but wanting to go home. in the case of the latter i think this is what the o.p. is on about and is more common than people actually realise.

MOH

schemingbohemia wrote: »

How is travelling further than their ticket allows by mistake not the passenger's responsibility or within their control?

It's happened me quite frequently that I get on a bus for a journey I make regularly, pay the correct fare, and after sitting upstairs discover that because the driver has the machine set incorrectly for the stage I got on at, my ticket only covers me for a shorter journey than the one I paid for.

With a Leap card, it's even harder to tell.

AlekSmart

MOH wrote: »

It's happened me quite frequently that I get on a bus for a journey I make regularly, pay the correct fare, and after sitting upstairs discover that because the driver has the machine set incorrectly for the stage I got on at, my ticket only covers me for a shorter journey than the one I paid for.

With a Leap card, it's even harder to tell.

A very significant and important issue MOH,caused by the Company's bizzarre decision to remove all on-street Stage Marking from the system.

This,combined with an influx of drivers who had not progressed through the Conducting grade,allied to a significant number of new Foreign staff who would not have had the local knowledge to support Stage Identification ensures that the entire Fare-Stage system is on a wing and a prayer.

However,steps are belatedly being taken to address the situation,albeit taking a sledgehammer to crack a nut.

The simplest approach would be to reapply the markings to the individual Fare Stages.

With Automatic Stage Updating yet to be enabled the latest approach is a Fare Calculator.

The current development is incorporated in the new FARE CALCULATOR tab on the dublinbus.ie website.

It's quite simple in that one selects the Route Number from a Drop-Down Menu,then the direction of travel,then the originating Bus Stop and finally the Destination Bus Stop.

It is actually much easier than it sounds and gives instant results.

What impacts on this thread-topic however is the cross referencing of the Fare Stages with the individual Bus Stop AT LAST !!!!

The facility is in operational test,so the more customers who try it out and provide feedback,the better !

Be advised however that there are anomalies being found in relation to locations where Staff AND Customers thought a Fare-Stage existed and where the new Database now places it.

However,the best advice to any Customer is to Check your ticket on reciept of it and if the Boarding Stage is significantly adrift,Say It To The Driver.

It is important to note also,that if one boards between a Fare Stage one is charged from the preceeding Stage and if alighting between Fare Stages,one is charged to the following Stage,which makes it all the more important to have these locations clearly marked ON THE STOP concerned.

davidlacey

the owness is totally on the passenger to make sure they pay the fare and not the driver regardless of whether he lets you on for free or not, just really have to hope the driver would stand up for you...

liger

I remember back in the 90's some time a child was refused travel for being 2p short of the fare and it being splashed all over the front of the papers and calls for the driver to be sacked.

Another instance where a woman was refused travel after losing her purse and being asaulted. Again there were calls for the driver to be sacked.

So I would say its very difficult for the drivers to say sorry you cant get on. But I would surely expect an inspector to look at the situation and say, Well the driver made the right call.

schemingbohemia

davidlacey wrote: »

the owness is totally on the passenger to make sure they pay the fare and not the driver regardless of whether he lets you on for free or not, just really have to hope the driver would stand up for you...

This is my favourite mis-spelling on the internet this year - so much better than their/they're/there, congrats.:D