why didnt they listen to me?

sashafierce · 21-03-2013 9:37am #1

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Oryx · 21-03-2013 9:43am

There is no point being mad at anyone about this. Its done. Now all you can do is see what changes can be made to help your sister get through her leaving cert. She needs to talk to her teachers, and get advice there, as a first move. You say its the work load rather than the fact she took economics, so see if something can be done to help her.

And your sister, while a teenager, is still an individual who should make her own informed choices. Perhaps you and your mother should actually take a step back.

sashafierce · 21-03-2013 9:46am

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Chucky the tree · 21-03-2013 9:52am

Get her grinds? No point whinging about it now. It's a pretty easy subject as well once the work is put and she has a decent teacher.

Like mother like daughter.

LittleBook · 21-03-2013 9:53am

There are two issues here.

1. You're angry with your Mum, she's made a mistake (a pretty big one). It's a common flaw in parents to over-reach where their kids are concerned and the pressure it places on the kids is enormous. But there's nothing much productive you can do with anger right now. You need to focus on ...

2. Your sister passing her leaving certificate. How many subjects is she doing and at what level? What does she want to do when she leaves school? What kind of points will she need for it?

My daughter is doing 7 subjects, the best 6 subjects are what matters for the "points" requirements. She's a disaster at maths but great with languages, essay type questions, etc.

So we let her drop to Pass Maths and the difference was unbelievable, like a huge weight had been lifted from her shoulders. She was a different person (in terms of school) almost immediately.

Perhaps you can persuade your mother to let your sister drop to Pass Economics to relieve some of the burden. At the very least, you and your sister should sit her down and talk frankly about your sisters prospects at the moment.

Hopefully that will lead to a re-think of the approach ... particularly in the context of what is required and what is achievable in terms of Points.

21-03-2013 9:55am

Well she's chosen it now and it's too late to change. All you can do is try to help her. Lots of people have to do subjects they hate, sometimes due to bad decisions at the beginning of 5th year, and sometimes because they have no choice. I hated Irish and always struggled with it, but sometimes you've just got to do what you hate. Just try your best to help her.

sashafierce · 21-03-2013 10:06am

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Oryx · 21-03-2013 10:12am

I cant help but notice that its your sisters choice but did she actually get to make it herself at all?

And when you talk to her now, what does SHE want to do?

sashafierce · 21-03-2013 10:17am

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Mrs Garth Brooks · 21-03-2013 10:17am

I remember when I was in school, I took biology. I found it very hard and I knew if I sat the exam I would have failed, even at pass level. I didnt want an E on my results, so I didnt bother sitting the exam. It never showed up on the results. I just had the 6 subjects. I think 6 subjects is better than having the stress of another subject you cant handle.

Oryx · 21-03-2013 10:19am

Has she looked at Art & Design courses? AFAIK they are portfolio rather than points based (or at least they used to be)

JMULL · 21-03-2013 10:30am

Well if she is struggling with all subjects she would probably struggle with accounting as well. Accounting is way harder than ecomonics.

sashafierce · 21-03-2013 10:34am

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Stavro Mueller · 21-03-2013 10:39am

I can understand why this is driving you mad but unfortunately you can't turn the clock back. When it comes down to it, your sister chose to take your mother's advice. Or was railroaded into it. Whatever.

There's no point in going over old ground here. She chose a subject that didn't suit her and unless she is in a position to drop it, she's stuck with it til the leaving. So all your sister can do now is get grinds or do whatever she thinks will get her through.

When it comes down to it, your sister is the one who needs to learn how to stand up for herself and have a say in her own future. It might mean getting a rubbish leaving for the penny to drop but if that's what it takes...

LegacyUser · 21-03-2013 11:33am

Art is one of the hardest subjects to get high points in regardless of how good you are at the subject because it's too subjective, you can do well in the written portion of the test but the drawing sections are just purely down to whose grading and their subjective view of the work. I did art because I wanted to [and did] go to art school and I found nearly everyone on my college course did not do art for the leaving because it's so badly done at secondary level and has little to no barring on following a carer in art. Most art courses entrance are based almost entirely on portfolio and interview or NCAD has a project it gets students to do as it doesn't trust the leaving cert art exam. It's not a requirement at all to take Art for the leaving in order to get onto an art course, usually they just ask that you pass your leaving and base your entrance for the course on portfolio.

If your sister wants to go follow a career in Art then she should go for it, pass her leaving and get onto a one year portfolio course [I highly rec this over going straight into a 4 year course as it helps people explore the different areas of art and pick the one most suitable for them and their skill set] but she shouldn't take art as a subject because she thinks it's going to be an easy grade to up her over all points.

LittleBook · 21-03-2013 11:47am

Honestly, it seems like neither you NOR your mother are thinking about what your sister wants. You have no idea if she would find accounting any easier than economics. The Leaving Cert may be a lost cause because both of you are pushing her into areas she clearly has no interest in.

If you want to help her, encourage her to get a portfolio together.

sashafierce · 21-03-2013 11:54am

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LittleBook · 21-03-2013 12:29pm

Well I'm sorry to say this but both you and your mother are wrong.

Every meeting I went to in the school, every teacher, university rep, career guidance person, they all gave the same message ... "encourage your child to take the subjects he/she is best at and is interested in". That is the only way to get the "best possible outcome".

The way the leaving cert/entry into college here is structured, it's ALL about the points. The best you can hope for now is to re-organise her priorities to get the most out of what is already a bad situation.

Tell her to focus on the subjects in which she'll get the best grades, get her help in the others and help her to understand that she still has options, whatever the outcome.

The important thing now is to relieve some of the stress your sister seems to be under, otherwise a low points score will be the least of her worries.

sashafierce · 21-03-2013 12:43pm

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Big Bag of Chips · 21-03-2013 1:36pm

You say your sister is struggling at all subjects and can't wait to just leave school.

This might be just who she is, regardless of whether she picked Accounting or Economics. It's easy to look back at bad decisions made and say, 'we should have done the other'. But you have no way of knowing whether or not she would be any better at Accounting, even with your help. And then you would have your mother on at YOU for forcing her in the wrong direction and saying 'I told you she should have done economics'.

My brother has a fantastic brain. But couldn't stand accounting. In a small country school options were limited.

He tried extra lessons with his teacher but had no interest in it. He knew he only needed 6 subjects so dropped Accounting completely. Went to class, but did something else, and concentrated on his other 6. He went in the day of the exam. Wrote his number on the book, and sat there. Didn't even open the exam paper. He waited the 30 minutes that you have to remain in the room, and then left.

He has an NG beside accounting on his leaving but got good honours in everything else.

Encourage her to get her art portfolio together. Ask her to talk to the school about dropping economics altogether and concentrate on getting the best she can in the other 6.

Just because you picked it up quick and got your degree doesn't mean your sister would find it equally as easy. She's a different person to both you, and your mam. It's time you both stopped arguing over what's best for her!

Hoochiemama · 21-03-2013 3:00pm

Just because you are good at accounting doesnt mean your sister would be. Saying how you picked it up easily is great for you but how do you know that would translate for your sister????

That exact reasoning is probably why your mother wanted her to do Economics.

21-03-2013 3:12pm

Yeah, in this scenario both of you are in the wrong. Its her life, she should be able to make her own choices then - yes, you want what is best for her, but what you want and what is best for her are two different things.

If the worst happens, she could do a PLC, which is sometimes a backdoor into college. Often times people would use them as a means to improve their portfolios, whether it be art, film & tv, design or anything else.

Right now you and your mother should take a step back, because the leaving cert is hard enough without two overpowering individuals standing over you.

LittleBook · 21-03-2013 3:37pm

why didn't they listen to me?

What exactly do you want Sasha?

I thought you were concerned for your sister getting through her leaving cert, but it seems the (in my opinion) secondary problem of finding someone to blame for the position she is in now is more important.

By all means be mad at your mother (and your sister) for not taking your advice, but it would be helpful if you would clarify this as I think it would influence people's responses.

Miaireland · 21-03-2013 4:05pm

I don't mean to be rude but I am at a bit of a loss why you posted this thread. As you say yourself your sister wanted to do a Business subject and she picked Economics. Yes, maybe your mother had some influence over this decision but I am sure this was not the only factor. At the end of the day your sister made a decision and we have no way of knowing whether she would have done any better at Acoounting. Just because you didn't have a hard time with it doesn't mean you sister wouldn't. Maybe she didn't feel comfortable getting help from you or feel you would have the patiences with her. She made her choice and she is living with it.

At the end of the day your sister made the final decision, not your mother. Being mad at your mom is achieving nothing and is of no help to your sister.

You could try posting in the Leaving cert forum for suggestion about grinds, websites, revision courses etc and encourage her to do as many past exam questions as possible.

To be honest, and again I don't mean to be rude I don't see why you put up this thread here other than hoping to get people to say you were right and they were wrong.

sashafierce · 21-03-2013 5:04pm

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sashafierce · 21-03-2013 5:12pm

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Oryx · 21-03-2013 5:21pm

Quite possibly, its an option. Talk to her teacher.

No she should focus on the subjects she does best in and enjoys most. Chasing points in a subject she may dislike is soul destroying and probably wont get the best out of her.

Depends if she is motivated enough to try.

They are an indicator, but often marked more harshly than the real exam. Remove stress from the girl. It will not help. Look at all her options, with all possible levels of points gained, from lowest expectations to highest. Let her apply for what she actually wants to do, as the main thing.

And remember this is not the be all and end all, and will not dictate her whole life, regardless of how it may seem.

LittleBook · 21-03-2013 5:23pm

OK, fair enough, I think that's being addressed well enough here.

I think I've answered most of your the questions already but I will add one more thing ... if this is a panic related to the result of her mock exams I would definitely worry a little less.

Traditionally, mock exams tend to be marked harder than real exams in order to keep the students focused and discourage them from coasting in the months leading up to the real exams.

But again, the best way for her to get the most points is to focus on which subjects she'll do well in and get her a little help with ones she's struggling with.

Here's a handy little points calculator to give you both an idea of what is achievable.

Leaving Cert Points Calculator

You should encourage your mother and your sister to talk to her year head and see if any changes should be made to her classes.

Cee-Jay-Cee · 21-03-2013 5:24pm

I don't understand this. What do you mean 'we let her drop to pass..' Surely it should be her decision what level to do. Isnt that what this whole thread is about, parents thinking they know everything and what's best for their teenagers and not sitting them down and discussing strengths and weaknesses in various subjects.

My wife is a secondary school teacher and she constantly sees arrogant and ignorant parents insisting their precious daughter does higher level when they are clearly not capable of even getting a pass mark in it let alone a top grade.

A lot if teenagers are struggling because their patents are putting so much pressure on them to do higher level subjects that thru chose for them and not what the child wanted to do themselves.

I chose all my own subjects and decided if I wanted to do pass or honors (as it was then). I got Good grades in them all.

LittleBook · 22-03-2013 11:05am

It was a figure of speech. If you bother to read my other posts on the subject you will see that my daughter is perfectly in control of her studies and has my complete support.

Big Bag of Chips · 22-03-2013 1:02pm

OP, I don't think that just because she is already doing a couple of ordinary level subjects should be a reason to persevere with honours in a subject that she is struggling so badly in.

What does she want to do after school? What courses is she looking at, or interested in? What points does she need?

There seems to be more of an emphasis from you on her 'getting a good leaving' than on what she actually wants to eventually do.

If she continues at higher level in a subject that she is really struggling in, she won't 'get a good leaving', whereas dropping to Ordinary Level, may give her that breathing space.

What do her teachers think?

You (and your mam) have to accept that your sister has different strengths than you. Work with what she has, and what she knows is obtainable for her, and see where that leads her.

If she wants grinds, etc well and good. If she is doing them just to please others, it's not so good (and a waste of money!)

Get her to figure out what it is she eventually wants, and work back from there.

In a couple of years her leaving results will be almost irrelevant anyway! A good Leaving Cert is a good stepping stone, and a good basis for people who are academic to move onto the next phase of their lives. But a 'not so good' Leaving isn't the end of the world. There's more than one way to skin a cat, and all that...

sashafierce · 22-03-2013 5:04pm

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Big Bag of Chips · 22-03-2013 5:52pm

Did she tell you the school made her, or did you hear that from the school? I'd be surprised at a school forcing a student into a particular subject.

Is there a chance your sister is feeling a bit 'ganged up on', so is now lashing out trying to find everyone else to blame? It's not unusual for people who are under a bit of stress, and feeling there is no way out.

Try to take the stresss and arguing and blame away for her at the minute. Don't use phrases like 'you should have....' Or 'you should never have....' Etc....

What's passed is irrelevant now. It can't be changed. Instead of focusing on the negatives and the 'should haves'. Focus on the positives and what she CAN do. As far as I'm aware she doesn't have to pass everything as only the top 6 grades are taken into consideration. If she does have to pass everything, then she doesn't need to be doing ANY honours subjects, if all she needs is passes. Having a good Leaving is one thing, but it's not obtainable to everyone, and putting pressure on her if its unnecessary is going to achieve nothing except make her pull back further.

Has she a portfolio together? You say she plans on getting one together next year? Is that not too late? Is she due to start college in Sept, or is she only in 5th year now?

Edit: ok just saw the post from 'can't log in' about doing a year portfolio course.. that's where doing it next year comes from!

The Big Red Button · 07-04-2013 11:12am

Firstly, you say she has to pass everything in order to get the portfolio course. She does not have to pass everything. If anything, it's probably a case that she has to pass six exams. Most schools arrange that Leaving Cert students sit seven. So she's probably OK to drop one.

Secondly, you say that the school 'made' her do biology instead of history. This is unlikely. The fact is that, when timetabling Leaving Cert subjects, you only have a limited number of hours in a day, and a limited number of teachers (all of whom have other classes, too). So what it comes down to is that students do have to choose between classes. E.g. I wanted to do both Physics and Music - however the classes for these ran at the same time. I ended up doing Physics in school, and Music externally. My own decision, as they were both subjects I had a strong interest in (and it was worth it, as both were amongst my top six subjects in the end, so were part of my Leaving Cert points.)

Thirdly, I did Accounting myself for Leaving Cert, and easily got an A, with very little work. This does not mean that other students would do the same. Just because you flew through it does not mean that she would do similar. You don't know that she wouldn't struggle with Accounting in the same way that she's currently struggling with Economics.

Rather than looking for someone to blame, why not focus on what's important right now - helping your sister. Forget the "I told you so"s. Just try to do what you can to help her with the Economics course, or with whatever other subjects you can.

You can't change what's done - and there's no point dwelling on it or questioning it - but you currently have an opportunity to help her as much as you can going forward. And that's what you should focus on.

sashafierce · 07-04-2013 11:21am

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why didnt they listen to me?

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