ireland rugby 7's

8on the 1st

just wondering why ireland don't have a rugby 7's team playing in the events around the world.seems odd as even kenya have 1

Clondalphian

I think its down to finances. Read somewhere(might have been on here) that the IRFU could either have the finances for Connacht or an Irish 7's team but not both

dregin

Women's 7s will be getting a fair whack of financial backing.

http://www.irishexaminer.com/sport/rugby/multi-million-investment-plan-to-develop-womens-rugby-225899.html

backgreen

Clondalphian wrote: »

I think its down to finances. Read somewhere(might have been on here) that the IRFU could either have the finances for Connacht or an Irish 7's team but not both

a load of bull from the irfu...they voted for the inclusion of 7s in the olympics
an have made no effort to develop a mens team..all the premier rugby nations have teams on the IRB tour,it has no impact on their finances or their 15s game
the 7s game is virtually self-financing..i would't expect much from head office no vision

Clondalphian

backgreen wrote: »

a load of bull from the irfu...they voted for the inclusion of 7s in the olympics
an have made no effort to develop a mens team..all the premier rugby nations have teams on the IRB tour,it has no impact on their finances or their 15s game
the 7s game is virtually self-financing..i would't expect much from head office no vision

How does the 7's game finance itself?

Superbus

Clondalphian wrote: »

I think its down to finances. Read somewhere(might have been on here) that the IRFU could either have the finances for Connacht or an Irish 7's team but not both

You know things are bad when Kenya can afford something that we can't.

Taco Corp

Clondalphian wrote: »

How does the 7's game finance itself?

get a 7's weekend in Dublin? that would draw a respectable crowd, both local and tourists. a big tourist draw would definitely get government support. of course there's also prize money, sponsorship, etc

davidpfitz

7s is awesome. Drums up support, and if you play your cards right you can host a profitable tournament.

I'm off this weekend to HK for a reccie.

jjjd

Clondalphian wrote: »

I think its down to finances. Read somewhere(might have been on here) that the IRFU could either have the finances for Connacht or an Irish 7's team but not both

Have they not heard of a thing called sponsorship?!!:rolleyes:

backgreen

Clondalphian wrote: »

How does the 7's game finance itself?

the IRB pay all the travel expences etc for the competing teams on the IRB world tour..as i said previously the IRFU voted and lobbied to have 7s included in the olympics and accept money from the irish sports council on the back of that.gender balance is needed here ..mens7s with the womens 7s

snotboogie

Typical Ireland, the only rugby nation not to have a sevens team.

sydthebeat

snotboogie wrote: »

Typical Ireland, the only rugby nation not to have a sevens team.

A guy I know played for ireland 'A' in sevens last weekend.

Maybe they just aren't at full standard yet.

JustinDee

sydthebeat wrote: »

A guy I know played for ireland 'A' in sevens last weekend

"Ireland 'A' in Sevens"?? There is actually no such team.

irishbucsfan

snotboogie wrote: »

Typical Ireland, the only rugby nation not to have a sevens team.

We do have one. Just ask Felix Jones or Paul Marshall. Or some ex-players like Conor McPhillips or Gary Brown.

We just don't have one on the series circuit. Don't know if we could afford to do that currently.

A Dublin 7s weekend would be brilliant for both Irish rugby and the city of Dublin though.

The women's team are quite good. But those involved might argue a lot of that is from their own initiative.

JustinDee

irishbucsfan wrote: »

The women's team are quite good. But those involved might argue a lot of that is from their own initiative.

Have to ask, how so?

sydthebeat

JustinDee wrote: »

"Ireland 'A' in Sevens"?? There is actually no such team.

oops my bad, just checked, it was rugby league As versus fiji.

irishbucsfan

JustinDee wrote: »

Have to ask, how so?

I don't know enough Justin and those I know that do are in Hong Kong so I'll have to plead ignoramce for now and come back to you at a later time!

JustinDee

irishbucsfan wrote: »

I don't know enough Justin and those I know that do are in Hong Kong so I'll have to plead ignoramce for now and come back to you at a later time!

Ok doke. Keen to hear how this impression was formed though. Before last year's drive for Women and Sevens, and the Club Sevens from three years ago, there was actually nothing in place and no team.

snotboogie

irishbucsfan wrote: »

We do have one. Just ask Felix Jones or Paul Marshall. Or some ex-players like Conor McPhillips or Gary Brown.

We just don't have one on the series circuit. Don't know if we could afford to do that currently.

A Dublin 7s weekend would be brilliant for both Irish rugby and the city of Dublin though.

The women's team are quite good. But those involved might argue a lot of that is from their own initiative.

I have a hard time believing that the IRFU is the poorest of the major rugby federations. It's a disgrace that we don't have a sevens team with the Olympics coming up, it was announced years ago. Thats discounting the benefit of having a team on the regular tour or having a major tournament in Dublin or Cork

Hersheys

The Women won the bowl at the HK 7's this morning.

Fair play to them.

pnpweirdo

We really should have a 7's side only made up of academy players. It would be brilliant experience for the players and hopefully it would help bring some players faster, younger, bigger and stronger. Such a shame not using the seven for this. Something is odiously wrong with blooding in new players.

nice_guy80

Wales lost the final vs Fiji

and we wonder why Wales have so many huge, excellent try scoring wingers? because they are developing them via the sevens

thebaz

no expert on 7s, but wouldnt the likes of Gilroy, Cronin, Madigan, Dom Ryan, mcfadden, hanrahan , fitzgerald, zebo, carr, murray, cooney be handy at it

ormond lad

pnpweirdo wrote: »

We really should have a 7's side only made up of academy players. It would be brilliant experience for the players and hopefully it would help bring some players faster, younger, bigger and stronger. Such a shame not using the seven for this. Something is odiously wrong with blooding in new players.

Better off with 7s specialists. the 7s series is during the season. First weekend is in October and the last is in May. We would need the academy players for British and Irish Cup, pro12 games.

thebaz wrote: »

no expert on 7s, but wouldnt the likes of Gilroy, Cronin, Madigan, Dom Ryan, mcfadden, hanrahan , fitzgerald, zebo, carr, murray, cooney be handy at it

They might but if we are to enter 7s world series surely it would be best off to do like every other country and have 7s specialists play in the world series.

pnpweirdo

thebaz wrote: »

no expert on 7s, but wouldnt the likes of Gilroy, Cronin, Madigan, Dom Ryan, mcfadden, hanrahan , fitzgerald, zebo, carr, murray, cooney be handy at it

Most or all these players wouldnt be released from club or country. You have months away on the circuit. Each week there is a tournament in a different country. We need younger players playing it. It will be interesting to see what team they will put together for the Olympic qualifiers.

backgreen

pnpweirdo wrote: »

Most or all these players wouldnt be released from club or country. You have months away on the circuit. Each week there is a tournament in a different country. We need younger players playing it. It will be interesting to see what team they will put together for the Olympic qualifiers.

it does't look like we will have a mens 7s team for Rio or even the Olympics after
if we are depending on the current bunch in the irfu

Losty Dublin

nice_guy80 wrote: »

Wales lost the final vs Fiji

and we wonder why Wales have so many huge, excellent try scoring wingers? because they are developing them via the sevens

Did they really?

The Welsh 7's squad who won in Hong Kong this weekend gone are all fringe, youths or no name players from the Welsh club game. Only one of them has been capped at senior level (Richie Pugh) and even then he has just one cap. Ditto for the English, Kiwi, Wallaby and Scottish squads. Even if you take the time to look at player stats of the back line of the current Welsh 6 Nation's squad, most of their back line didn't come through Sevens at all so your point doesn't bear any fruit.

At best, sevens is an off season diversion and a warm up game for players; the development potential from it for the 15 a side game is not a hell of a lot all told. As it is, the IRFU have a lot of resources going into the Schools international team, the Academy systems and the U 20 squad and respective provincial leagues linking into the provincial A squads and AIL league; seven's won't do us any good in the scheme of things.

ormond lad

Losty Dublin wrote: »

Did they really?

The Welsh 7's squad who won in Hong Kong this weekend gone are all fringe, youths or no name players from the Welsh club game. Only one of them has been capped at senior level (Richie Pugh) and even then he has just one cap. Ditto for the English, Kiwi, Wallaby and Scottish squads. Even if you take the time to look at player stats of the back line of the current Welsh 6 Nation's squad, most of their back line didn't come through Sevens at all so your point doesn't bear any fruit.

At best, sevens is an off season diversion and a warm up game for players; the development potential from it for the 15 a side game is not a hell of a lot all told. As it is, the IRFU have a lot of resources going into the Schools (and Youths) international teams, the Academy systems and the U 20 squad and respective provincial leagues linking into the provincial A squads and AIL league; seven's won't do us any good in the scheme of things.

Small edit but I agree with what youre saying. We're better off concentrating on the 15man game dispite the benefits 7s can bring.

irishbucsfan

Losty Dublin wrote: »

Did they really?

The Welsh 7's squad who won in Hong Kong this weekend gone are all fringe, youths or no name players from the Welsh club game. Only one of them has been capped at senior level (Richie Pugh) and even then he has just one cap. Ditto for the English, Kiwi, Wallaby and Scottish squads. Even if you take the time to look at player stats of the back line of the current Welsh 6 Nation's squad, most of their back line didn't come through Sevens at all so your point doesn't bear any fruit.

At best, sevens is an off season diversion and a warm up game for players; the development potential from it for the 15 a side game is not a hell of a lot all told. As it is, the IRFU have a lot of resources going into the Schools international team, the Academy systems and the U 20 squad and respective provincial leagues linking into the provincial A squads and AIL league; seven's won't do us any good in the scheme of things.

Lee Byrne, James Hook and Alex Cuthbert all played 7s.

That's just the internationals. Some really good pro club players were developed through 7s as well.

I think the area they get the most benefit from is scrum half. Loads of really good 9s in Welsh rugby were able to develop fully on the 7s circuit. In fairness Paul Marshall played a bit of 7s for Ireland as well AFAIK.

ArmaniJeanss

Losty Dublin wrote: »

At best, sevens is an off season diversion and a warm up game for players; the development potential from it for the 15 a side game is not a hell of a lot all told. ...... seven's won't do us any good in the scheme of things.

Why do the merits or not of 7s have to be measured in terms of what it can do for 15s?

It should be looked at as a seperate entity imo, an international game at which we can be competitive (admittedly this could take 10/20 years because of the head start we've given the rest) which has an Olympic outlet and the benefits/revenues this can bring, a yearly World Championship, and the possibility down the line of Dublin becoming one of the host cities on the circuit.

Zuffer

Irish fans are great at saying that the IRFU should put more funds into certain areas - be it sevens, womens, Connacht, to name just a few.

However, we're also great at complaining when they try to raise revenue. I've seen threads here complaining about Aviva naming rights, food and drink at the ground, and ticket prices. I read today that the issue of alcohol sponsorship is back on the government agenda. So the IRFU are getting from all sides.

To say that 7's could at present be self funding is, I think, naive at best. There has never been a worse time in the history of the professional game to try and get sponsorship. What's out there isn't going to cover the costs. (Also, add this seasons "U20s getting shown on TV over the women's game due to PWC sponsorship" to the IRFU can't win column).

All that said, if the IRFU were serious about 7s and Rio, or if they thought it would be a big help to the main international team, they'd cut somewhere else and find the money.

My 2c, I think a view has been taken within the IRFU that 7s and 15s are not natural compliments, but in fact 7s would compete against 15s, and maybe steal away players, supporters and cash. I think they might be right. I'd say Ireland is small enough that if we lost 2 or 3 international standard backs to a full time 7s program, that would hurt the 15 man game. Taken with the costs issue, I'd say that's why the IRFU haven't gone all guns blazing for 7s and Rio.

JustinDee

As stated before, there will be a decision on Men's Sevens made once qualification criteria for the Olympics are finalised this year.
In the meantime, €1.1m is being put into the Women's Sevens programme, so we do in fact have a Sevens side aiming for Rio. Shout them on. They're a very sharp outfit with great management and worthy of a better profile.

snotboogie

Zuffer wrote: »

Irish fans are great at saying that the IRFU should put more funds into certain areas - be it sevens, womens, Connacht, to name just a few.

However, we're also great at complaining when they try to raise revenue. I've seen threads here complaining about Aviva naming rights, food and drink at the ground, and ticket prices. I read today that the issue of alcohol sponsorship is back on the government agenda. So the IRFU are getting from all sides.

To say that 7's could at present be self funding is, I think, naive at best. There has never been a worse time in the history of the professional game to try and get sponsorship. What's out there isn't going to cover the costs. (Also, add this seasons "U20s getting shown on TV over the women's game due to PWC sponsorship" to the IRFU can't win column).

All that said, if the IRFU were serious about 7s and Rio, or if they thought it would be a big help to the main international team, they'd cut somewhere else and find the money.

My 2c, I think a view has been taken within the IRFU that 7s and 15s are not natural compliments, but in fact 7s would compete against 15s, and maybe steal away players, supporters and cash. I think they might be right. I'd say Ireland is small enough that if we lost 2 or 3 international standard backs to a full time 7s program, that would hurt the 15 man game. Taken with the costs issue, I'd say that's why the IRFU haven't gone all guns blazing for 7s and Rio.

This is nonsense, these issues apply to every country so why is every other major rugby nation able to put together a sevens team except for us?

irishbucsfan

snotboogie wrote: »

This is nonsense, these issues apply to every country so why is every other major rugby nation able to put together a sevens team except for us?

Because most of them don't support central contracts as we do. The IRFU run the professional game for 4 teams. The RFU for example don't have to do that.

The other nations that do seem to suffer from a loss of players quite often.

Losty Dublin

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

Why do the merits or not of 7s have to be measured in terms of what it can do for 15s?

It should be looked at as a seperate entity imo, an international game at which we can be competitive (admittedly this could take 10/20 years because of the head start we've given the rest) which has an Olympic outlet and the benefits/revenues this can bring, a yearly World Championship, and the possibility down the line of Dublin becoming one of the host cities on the circuit.

The argument raised by most people is that a 7's team be run with view to develop players from it. On this simple basis then yes it has to be compared to the 15's and the general experience is that it doesn't offer anything skills wise to players, and it won't hold onto many wavering young players either. On a financial level, even an amateur squad explicitly for 7's is unlikely to cover it's arse. If Ireland was to become a host venue on it's circuit and although it does get some new bums in on seats it's worldwide fan appeal isn't great. In short, resources could be better invested into other aspects of the game which need it.

As it is, the IRB series is finishing up this year so it will have to be the Olympic system if it's to be done.

pickarooney

JustinDee wrote: »

As stated before, there will be a decision on Men's Sevens made once qualification criteria for the Olympics are finalised this year.

Hopefully one of them is not "must have an existing sevens team" :pac:

backgreen

maybe the irfu should give it over to rugby league to run a mens 7s ..i am sure they would be delighted

lurtz

Jesus we really REALLY need a team,its a proper joke that we dont compete. Id see it as an ideal development opportunity for young lads

dropping_bombs

A video of the women's squad in Hong Kong.

davidpfitz

lurtz wrote: »

Jesus we really REALLY need a team,its a proper joke that we dont compete. Id see it as an ideal development opportunity for young lads

Tell me about it! I was over at the HK 7s the other day, and the number of people that asked me why Ireland didn't have a sevens team was astonishing. I couldn't give them a proper answer, to be honest - "budget" doesn't ring true when pretty much every other major (and minor) nation was represented (I can't recall seeing Italy play, but that doesn't mean they weren't there).

As an aside, the HK 7s is absolutely mental and I'd encourage everyone who is able to go, to go at least once. It's one hell of a weekend.

Beery Eyed

We're very quick to criticize the IRFU for not investing the money in 7's (I was also one of these detractors at one stage) but when it's analyzed fully it becomes less clear cut.

People highlighting the second/third tier & minor countries with participating teams aren't taking the whole picture into account. For instance, when was the last time Fiji, Kenya, Portugal, Canada, USA, Russia, Spain, etc. gave our full senior 15's team a real challenge in a test? These are all example teams of course, but the fact is that many of these teams, who are excellent at the 7's game, invest significantly in this level and often to the detriment of developing their senior international side.

We cannot directly compare ourselves with many of the other unions involved either, for various reasons. England, New Zealand, South Africa & France all have an absolute wealth of playing numbers to support their touring 7's teams, with a constant rotation of new players coming in each year. Even comparing us with our two closest neighbours - Wales & Scotland - isn't ideal. For example Wales don't field an "A" international team, which is something I wouldn't be too impressed if we gave up, while Scotland's union only support 2 provincial teams (and somewhat poorly it could be argued), rather than our 4. Within our direct 6Nations rivals the only other team to compare with is Italy, and as far as I know they don't compete on the 7's tour either, instead opting to invest more in the 15's game like we do.

Unfortunately the money is not endless in the Irish game and in fairness to the IRFU I think they do a good job of distributing it in a way which best meets their target - the development of our International senior team. They invest significantly in the senior & "A" teams, 4 fully professional provincial teams, as well as "A" teams, underage & academy teams at each province.

I'd love for us to have a 7's team of course, but on the other hand I'd hate to see us fielding a team of young lads getting whipped every tournament just for the sake of having a team out there. I'd also be hesitant to see any funding moved away from the provincial/academy setup that has started to really bear fruit after much investment & effort. Hopefully there is a way that it can be accommodated, but right now it certainly isn't as straightforward as some people would argue.

lurtz

Beery Eyed wrote: »

We're very quick to criticize the IRFU for not investing the money in 7's (I was also one of these detractors at one stage) but when it's analyzed fully it becomes less clear cut.

People highlighting the second/third tier & minor countries with participating teams aren't taking the whole picture into account. For instance, when was the last time Fiji, Kenya, Portugal, Canada, USA, Russia, Spain, etc. gave our full senior 15's team a real challenge in a test? These are all example teams of course, but the fact is that many of these teams, who are excellent at the 7's game, invest significantly in this level and often to the detriment of developing their senior international side.

We cannot directly compare ourselves with many of the other unions involved either, for various reasons. England, New Zealand, South Africa & France all have an absolute wealth of playing numbers to support their touring 7's teams, with a constant rotation of new players coming in each year. Even comparing us with our two closest neighbours - Wales & Scotland - isn't ideal. For example Wales don't field an "A" international team, which is something I wouldn't be too impressed if we gave up, while Scotland's union only support 2 provincial teams (and somewhat poorly it could be argued), rather than our 4. Within our direct 6Nations rivals the only other team to compare with is Italy, and as far as I know they don't compete on the 7's tour either, instead opting to invest more in the 15's game like we do.

Unfortunately the money is not endless in the Irish game and in fairness to the IRFU I think they do a good job of distributing it in a way which best meets their target - the development of our International senior team. They invest significantly in the senior & "A" teams, 4 fully professional provincial teams, as well as "A" teams, underage & academy teams at each province.

I'd love for us to have a 7's team of course, but on the other hand I'd hate to see us fielding a team of young lads getting whipped every tournament just for the sake of having a team out there. I'd also be hesitant to see any funding moved away from the provincial/academy setup that has started to really bear fruit after much investment & effort. Hopefully there is a way that it can be accommodated, but right now it certainly isn't as straightforward as some people would argue.

Yes I seee your point and it is a good one but I also see no reason why we can't invest. New Zealand have a senior team,Maori,u20,schools,Heartland and womens teams on a national level. As well as this they have 4 super rugby teams,with development teams,and 14 other fully pro ITM Cup squads,with academies and underages team at each team. So on top of all this they manage to support two sevens teams. Im not an accountant and dont know how our finances are going but I think we can probably do it as well

Thud

Invest significantly in the A team? the A team is pulled together for one or two matches a year and the one that played in Nov was predominantly made up of players from the first squad/camp and when it comes to international experience A caps are disregarded by most (as happened in theJackson & Madigan cases)so I don't see a huge benefit in it over say Heineken cup or Rabo experience.

Beery Eyed

lurtz wrote: »

Yes I seee your point and it is a good one but I also see no reason why we can't invest. New Zealand have a senior team,Maori,u20,schools,Heartland and womens teams on a national level. As well as this they have 4 super rugby teams,with development teams,and 14 other fully pro ITM Cup squads,with academies and underages team at each team. So on top of all this they manage to support two sevens teams. Im not an accountant and dont know how our finances are going but I think we can probably do it as well

Again, I would have to say that any comparison with New Zealand isn't ideal. Their depth of high quality players, and the iconic national status of the game there, are on a different level to ourselves. We can only get our own house in order within the constraints of our own budget & resources.

CatFromHue

lurtz wrote: »

Yes I seee your point and it is a good one but I also see no reason why we can't invest. New Zealand have a senior team,Maori,u20,schools,Heartland and womens teams on a national level. As well as this they have 4 super rugby teams,with development teams,and 14 other fully pro ITM Cup squads,with academies and underages team at each team. So on top of all this they manage to support two sevens teams. Im not an accountant and dont know how our finances are going but I think we can probably do it as well

I think NZ have recognised that Sevens is now a different game and they will be focusing more on specialist Sevens players, if they don't already, than on players who can play in both.

pickarooney

Maybe the GAA would be interested in running a 7s team?

:pac: