Help reading a name

RGM

The parents of one of my ancestors are listed on her death certificate. She was from Cork (at least she was married there). The father is quite clearly Mathew, but I'm struggling with the mother. It looks like it says "Cahan."

At first glance, I was tempted to just assume it should be Catherine. But there's no "t" to be found.

http://imgur.com/QaoVS3W

Left side, and down. Any thoughts?

lottpaul

Definitely not Catherine anyway. At first glance -- and looking at the initial letter possibilities -- it reminds me of "Joahann".

pinkypinky

At a first glance, I thought it said Eoghan until I remembered it was the mother! That first letter definitely has a cross on it.

RGM

pinkypinky wrote: »

That first letter definitely has a cross on it.

It definitely looks like a "C" though. I know the curls are odd, but I have other records where the name is clear and the "C" looks exactly like that. I realize "Catherine" is written at the top of this record and doesn't look the same, but it's clearly different handwriting.

lottpaul wrote: »

Definitely not Catherine anyway. At first glance -- and looking at the initial letter possibilities -- it reminds me of "Joahann".

Yes, but the person who filled it out signed below, and his name was John J. Walsh. The J's don't match.

WHL

Who did she marry and where in Cork was it? Is there any hint there? Do you agree that her mother's maiden name is Ring and that Catherine was born around 1855. Were they Catholic? Just wondering if the online church records will show up anything

RGM

WHL wrote: »

Who did she marry and where in Cork was it? Is there any hint there? Do you agree that her mother's maiden name is Ring and that Catherine was born around 1855. Were they Catholic? Just wondering if the online church records will show up anything

Actually her maiden is Ring and her father was Matthew Ring. You can see from the certificate that her married name is Walsh. Her father's name was given as Walsh on the death certificate in error.

She married David Walsh in 1876. Unfortunately, she was married in Macroom, which is in the Diocese of Cloyne rather than Cork & Ross, which means there isn't anything on irishgenealogy.ie. I have a copy of her civil marriage record, but that only gives her father's name. I also have a transcription of the church marriage record from rootsireland.ie, but that isn't any help. I haven't been able to find a birth record for her or her sister on rootsireland.ie, and no trace of her father Matthew.

The name Ring has been recorded and transcribed in a variety of ways - Reing, Reiny, Rinn, Reen, etc - but I've tried everything I can think of. No luck. I suppose I'll have to wait for my next trip over and browse the parish records in person.

CeannRua

Are there any clues in what Catherine or siblings named any daughters they had? Celia or variant?

Other than that, I wonder if names have been conflated and what is ostensibly listed as the mother's first name is actually her maiden surname. Maybe Calnan or variant. Or if it is a 'h' in the middle of the name, something like Cahalane or a variant.

P. Breathnach

That section of the form has basic errors. I suspect that it might have been completed by somebody working in haste, and not taking care. I suspect that there was an intention to write "Catherine" and the "t" was omitted and the "erine" tailed off into a squiggle.

WHL

Looking at ancestry.co.uk, I see a Catherine Ring who was born on 8th April 1851 in Inchageelagh with parents called Matthew Ring and Betty Moynihan. Can't get Elizabeth or anything like that from the death certificate though

RGM

P. Breathnach wrote: »

That section of the form has basic errors. I suspect that it might have been completed by somebody working in haste, and not taking care. I suspect that there was an intention to write "Catherine" and the "t" was omitted and the "erine" tailed off into a squiggle.

Yes, I think this is most likely what happened. If there was any trace of a t at all, I wouldn't have even asked.

Is it possible the name could be "Cahira?"

CeannRua wrote: »

Are there any clues in what Catherine or siblings named any daughters they had? Celia or variant?

Other than that, I wonder if names have been conflated and what is ostensibly listed as the mother's first name is actually her maiden surname. Maybe Calnan or variant. Or if it is a 'h' in the middle of the name, something like Cahalane or a variant.

Now that is an interesting idea. Hadn't thought of that.

The daughters names were Catherine, Mary Ellen, and Bridget. Bridget is younger than the other two and I don't have anything specifically saying she was a sister. It's possible she may have been a cousin, for example.

RGM

WHL wrote: »

Looking at ancestry.co.uk, I see a Catherine Ring who was born on 8th April 1851 in Inchageelagh with parents called Matthew Ring and Betty Moynihan. Can't get Elizabeth or anything like that from the death certificate though

That's an interesting record not just because of the first names, but because Catherine's sister married a Moynihan. But wouldn't that actually be a strike against? Inchageelagh is not all that far from Macroom though. I'll keep it in mind.

Mary Ellen Ring married Patrick Moynihan in Macroom in 1879. Their first child was born in Rockborough.

WHL

Is Rockborough near Macroom as well. You know that Catherine had a sister called Mary Ellen. Were there any other siblings that you know of. If you knew of one that was born after 1864 you might get the mother's name from a birth certificate. Did Mary Ellen or any of the other siblings move abroad. If so, would their death certificate show their mother's name.

Was Catherine the oldest girl in her family. Further to what CeannRua said, am I right in thinking that the first daughter of the oldest girl would often have been named after her grandmother - I think that you are saying that Catherine's first daughter was called Catherine also

RGM

WHL wrote: »

Is Rockborough near Macroom as well. You know that Catherine had a sister called Mary Ellen. Were there any other siblings that you know of. If you knew of one that was born after 1864 you might get the mother's name from a birth certificate. Did Mary Ellen or any of the other siblings move abroad. If so, would their death certificate show their mother's name.

Was Catherine the oldest girl in her family. Further to what CeannRua said, am I right in thinking that the first daughter of the oldest girl would often have been named after her grandmother - I think that you are saying that Catherine's first daughter was called Catherine also

Yeah, I've covered most of it.
- Rockborough is by Macroom, yes. It is right by Raleigh.
- Don't know of any other siblings.
- The sisters moved to the US together, or at least around the same time to the same place. Mary Ellen's death certificate didn't have anything relevant.
- I don't know anything else about the family, so not sure if Catherine had other siblings.
- No, Catherine's first daughter (that I know of) was named Johanna.

CeannRua

Inchigeelagh is in Cork & Ross but for some reason all IrishGenealogy has are 1816-1826 baptisms. The parish name is spelled Ivelearly on the actual database. There are a bunch of other children on FamilySearch with parents Mathew Ring/Elizabeth Moynihan. I can't see the name on the death cert being any form of Elizabeth though.

RGM

CeannRua wrote: »

Inchigeelagh is in Cork & Ross but for some reason all IrishGenealogy has are 1816-1826 baptisms. The parish name is spelled Ivelearly on the actual database. There are a bunch of other children on FamilySearch with parents Mathew Ring/Elizabeth Moynihan. I can't see the name on the death cert being any form of Elizabeth though.

Thanks for looking.

The only place names in Cork I have associated with the family are Macroom and the neighboring townlands of Raleigh (aka Rathleigh) and Rockborough. I'd naturally be very skeptical of anything that falls outside the area of Macroom.

I should also mention that sponsors of Catherine's children included the surnames Roche and Sweeney.

WHL

I'd imagine the Catherine Ring in Inchageelagh is a red herring if all the other known information is from the Macroom area

WHL

I have been thinking about this again. If you look at the 1901 census, there is a Mary Ring living in Raleigh South in Kilnamartyra (just outside Macroom). http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Cork/Kilnamartry/Raleigh_South/1124973/ Is this the right Raleigh? Was your Catherine married in Kilnamartyra or in Macroom itself? I see that Mallow Heritage Centre have baptism/marraige records for Kilnamartyra from 1803 to 1895 and also Macroom in a similar period. It is a paying service but they might be able to help.
I can't find this Mary Ring in Raleigh in the 1911 census and I see a Mary Ring of the right age that had a death registered in Macroom in 1906. This is a shame as the 1911 census would have said how many children she had.

Speaking of deaths - there seem to be 18 Ring females with deaths registered in Macroom that might have been the mother of Catherine and Mary Ellen (born between 1805 and 1840). This is presuming that she died in the area and that her death was registered in Macroom. The names are Anne, Ellen, Kate, Abbey, Mary, Margaret, Julia, Hanora and Johanna. Johanna and Kate seem to be the ones that might match your ancestor but Johanna was born around 1842 and the two Kates were born in 1812 and 1842. Seeing as Catherine and Mary Ellen were born around the 1850s, the 1842 ones would seem too young (although dates were often wrong in those days) and the 1812 Kate would seem very old if these were her only children (although she may have had other children or might have been married before)

Were you able to find Raleigh in Griffiths Valuation. This would tell you if they were the only Ring family in the townland.

It's not an easy one

RGM

WHL wrote: »

I have been thinking about this again. If you look at the 1901 census, there is a Mary Ring living in Raleigh South in Kilnamartyra (just outside Macroom). http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Cork/Kilnamartry/Raleigh_South/1124973/ Is this the right Raleigh? Was your Catherine married in Kilnamartyra or in Macroom itself? I see that Mallow Heritage Centre have baptism/marraige records for Kilnamartyra from 1803 to 1895 and also Macroom in a similar period. It is a paying service but they might be able to help.
I can't find this Mary Ring in Raleigh in the 1911 census and I see a Mary Ring of the right age that had a death registered in Macroom in 1906. This is a shame as the 1911 census would have said how many children she had.

Speaking of deaths - there seem to be 18 Ring females with deaths registered in Macroom that might have been the mother of Catherine and Mary Ellen (born between 1805 and 1840). This is presuming that she died in the area and that her death was registered in Macroom. The names are Anne, Ellen, Kate, Abbey, Mary, Margaret, Julia, Hanora and Johanna. Johanna and Kate seem to be the ones that might match your ancestor but Johanna was born around 1842 and the two Kates were born in 1812 and 1842. Seeing as Catherine and Mary Ellen were born around the 1850s, the 1842 ones would seem too young (although dates were often wrong in those days) and the 1812 Kate would seem very old if these were her only children (although she may have had other children or might have been married before)

Were you able to find Raleigh in Griffiths Valuation. This would tell you if they were the only Ring family in the townland.

It's not an easy one

Yes, I spotted her some time ago. She jumped out because she lived next to a Moynihan family, and Catherine's sister married a Moynihan. Catherine's marriage was in Macroom, but that is the right Raleigh. Transcriptions of the records are on rootsireland and I've searched them extensively.

There aren't any Rings there in Griffiths, but there is a Catherine Ring in nearby Parkanillane, which is a few townlands over.

There are other Rings in the area though, so it will be nearly impossible to make any assumptions without more birth and marriage records.

As far as death records go, I'm more interested in where Matthew Ring's is.

TheChizler

Could it be Caoilainn or some variant? No idea if that name would have been used back then.