DNA Results

Gunnerkid

I have a question about haplogroups and there appearance in Ireland, I recently took a DNA test on 23andme and as expected on my paternal line it shows the R1B1B2 haplogroup which I believe is common in Ireland.

However on my maternal line the haplogroup U5b1b2 appears, now this shocked me as it does not appear on the mapping for Ireland and I know for a fact my mother is Irish, and her mother is Irish, after that not so sure. Basically I just want to know does this group appear in Ireland to some degree or is it rare?

Thanks in advance for any help or info. :cool:

RGM

Gunnerkid wrote: »

I have a question about haplogroups and there appearance in Ireland, I recently took a DNA test on 23andme and as expected on my paternal line it shows the R1B1B2 haplogroup which I believe is common in Ireland.

However on my maternal line the haplogroup U5b1b2 appears, now this shocked me as it does not appear on the mapping for Ireland and I know for a fact my mother is Irish, and her mother is Irish, after that not so sure. Basically I just want to know does this group appear in Ireland to some degree or is it rare?

Thanks in advance for any help or info. :cool:

I don't know about your specific haplogroup, but your mtDNA dates back thousands of years. There is no reason for you to be shocked just because your grandmother is Irish. Your ancestors could have been in Ireland for many hundreds of years and still have a strange haplogroup.

Gunnerkid

RGM wrote: »

I don't know about your specific haplogroup, but your mtDNA dates back thousands of years. There is no reason for you to be shocked just because your grandmother is Irish. Your ancestors could have been in Ireland for many hundreds of years and still have a strange haplogroup.

Ya I was thinking that my ancestors were probably here for hundreds of years with that haplogroup. I was just wondering how rare it was in Ireland and whether it could potentially mean that there was a greater chance of a more recent ancestor marrying into the family rather than that haplogroup being carried down the line for hundreds of years

Ipso

The U group in general is fairly common in Ireland. It is thought to have been present in Ireland for a long time. These articles may be of some use.
http://www.eupedia.com/europe/origins_haplogroups_europe.shtml#UK
http://www.eupedia.com/europe/european_mtdna_haplogroups_frequency.shtml

Gunnerkid

Ipso wrote: »

The U group in general is fairly common in Ireland. It is thought to have been present in Ireland for a long time. These articles may be of some use.
http://www.eupedia.com/europe/origins_haplogroups_europe.shtml#UK
http://www.eupedia.com/europe/european_mtdna_haplogroups_frequency.shtml

Interesting although from the link you provided above it does not appear to be that common, in terms of the U5 subgroup. I'm just taking that from the numbers but I could be wrong as I don't know much about DNA and ancestry.

Ipso

Gunnerkid wrote: »

Interesting although from the link you provided above it does not appear to be that common, in terms of the U5 subgroup. I'm just taking that from the numbers but I could be wrong as I don't know much about DNA and ancestry.

The mtdna haplogroups seem more evenly spread than the Y ones; one thing you could do is in your Relative Finder section click on the box for your haplogroup and this will filter matches showing people with the same one, then check their background. A bit crude but it may give a rough idea.

Gunnerkid

Ipso wrote: »

The mtdna haplogroups seem more evenly spread than the Y ones; one thing you could do is in your Relative Finder section click on the box for your haplogroup and this will filter matches showing people with the same one, then check their background. A bit crude but it may give a rough idea.

Cheers, I took a look at that last night and the majority of 2nd to 3rd cousins appear to be from Ireland, however when I started to look at people in the 3rd to distant cousin section, people from Finland, Poland, Serbia started to appear. Would that be an indication of a not to distant relative not being Irish??

My countries of ancestry show: Ireland 2.5%, UK 0.2%, Sweden 0.2%, Spain 0.2%, Serbia 0.1%, Norway 0.1%, Colombian 0.1%. Would these be normal breakdowns for most Irish or do you think this is an indication of more recent mixes in the blood-line??

Gunnerkid

Another quick question if I got my mother tested would that make any difference in terms of narrowing down the DNA results??

Ipso

Gunnerkid wrote: »

Another quick question if I got my mother tested would that make any difference in terms of narrowing down the DNA results??

Not really if you want to track your direct female line as this is all your mtdna haplogroup looks at.
What it may do is help to show what matches on Relative Finder are on your fathers side.
If your mother done a test and you compare results in Relative Finder whatever you have that she doesn't have should be relatives on your fathers side.
If you want to look at your direct maternal line only (mother, her mother, her mother etc) Family Tree DNA do a more detailed test.

Ipso

Gunnerkid wrote: »

Cheers, I took a look at that last night and the majority of 2nd to 3rd cousins appear to be from Ireland, however when I started to look at people in the 3rd to distant cousin section, people from Finland, Poland, Serbia started to appear. Would that be an indication of a not to distant relative not being Irish??

My countries of ancestry show: Ireland 2.5%, UK 0.2%, Sweden 0.2%, Spain 0.2%, Serbia 0.1%, Norway 0.1%, Colombian 0.1%. Would these be normal breakdowns for most Irish or do you think this is an indication of more recent mixes in the blood-line??

I think what I suggested was too crude, those matches could be from your fathers side.
The way to look at your U5 haplogroup is to draw your family tree for 10 generations. You have over 2,000 ancestors with no inbreeding. What the mtdna haplogroup shows is the link down the maternal line, your mother, her mother etc which is just 10 ancestors out of over 2,000 and all those people in the family tree could be common ancestors of you and your relative matches.

Here is a good forum that might help you understand genetic testing more.
http://eng.molgen.org/

Gunnerkid

Ipso wrote: »

I think what I suggested was too crude, those matches could be from your fathers side.
The way to look at your U5 haplogroup is to draw your family tree for 10 generations. You have over 2,000 ancestors with no inbreeding. What the mtdna haplogroup shows is the link down the maternal line, your mother, her mother etc which is just 10 ancestors out of over 2,000 and all those people in the family tree could be common ancestors of you and your relative matches.

Here is a good forum that might help you understand genetic testing more.
http://eng.molgen.org/

Thanks for the info, just one final question, in terms of the nationalities of ancestry and their numbers, how do I determine which ones are worth looking at and which ones would be just blips, like I take it that my Irish percent is correct and worth noting, but if its a percent like 0.2% or 0.1% are these numbers to watch. I find it hard to see how my DNA is primarily European but then something like Colombian appears. Sorry if I sound like an idiot here but just trying to get my head around the numbers with the nationalities

Ipso

Where are the countries of ancestry percentages coming from?
It could also be a case that you and a Colombian share similar non Colombian ancestry not that you have Colombian ancestry.

Gunnerkid

Ipso wrote: »

Where are the countries of ancestry percentages coming from?
It could also be a case that you and a Colombian share similar non Colombian ancestry not that you have Colombian ancestry.

oh ok, so on the "your countries of ancestry" it may be representing people I have shared ancestry with? those percents are coming from my ancestry by country makeup

Ipso

Hmm, I can't think of the section you're talking about right now. When I'm at home I'll have a look at my account.
Also there is a site called www.gedmatch.com you shoyld try to use.
Download your 23andme raw data and upload it to this site. There are calculators that look at ancestry admixtures. It might also he of use to identify if you have recent non Irish ancestry.

thadiisgirl

I must admit to still feeling surprise at the recent Y-DNA test done by my brother. The paternal line comes from Connaught (emigrated to UK around 1870) and the majority of those so far tested with our surname have the R1B1 Haplogroup and not the (fairly) rare J2-M172 we tested for...

RGM

Gunnerkid wrote: »

Another quick question if I got my mother tested would that make any difference in terms of narrowing down the DNA results??

It would be helpful in narrowing down matches with distant cousins (and giving you new ones, as you don't have half of her DNA). It wouldn't make a difference in mtDNA results though.

Gunnerkid

Cheers to everyone for your advice and info. I got my ancestry composition and it described me as 93.8% Northern European and 0.1% North African. I then went and ran my 23andMe results on GedMatch EuroGenes and consistently came up with 58.52% Northern European and 25.86% Mediterranean. Can anyone tell me how firstly to decipher the 23andMe results with a 0.1% North African, is this just noise or something to look at.

And with my GedMatch results how do I deciper that and its relevancy?? Are we talking hundreds of years with that makeup or do those results indicate a more recent relative??

Ipso

The sites below might help clear things up. Go to the early posts on dodecad, some tine he had spreadsheets with averages for countries so you can compare. I am DOD350 in dodecad.
In eurogenes irish people have an IE prefix so you can see how they compare against other populations.
http://dodecad.blogspot.com/?m=1
http://dienekes.blogspot.com/?m=1
http://bga101.blogspot.com/?m=1

As far as I can figure out any exotic ancestry would needto have been in the last 8 generations or so to show up. Small percentages like your 0.1 are most likely noise.

Ipso

Slso contact Doug McDonald , his address is in the link. He runs an analysis on 23andme raw data
http://23pp.david-web.co.uk/getting-more-from-your-data/

Gunnerkid

Ipso wrote: »

Slso contact Doug McDonald , his address is in the link. He runs an analysis on 23andme raw data
http://23pp.david-web.co.uk/getting-more-from-your-data/

Thanks I emailed Doug McDonald with my 23andme raw data.

Can you tell me though from my eurogene results how does it work, because they show different results say in comparison to 23andme, is it just that they calculate your data in more depth, or calculate a smaller percent of your raw data?

Ipso

Try to find the original post in Eurogenes where he first posted results based on that calculator. There is ine post where he gives explanations.
These kinds of tests use a large data base of various populations, allele frequencies are calculated and where certain alleles are common they are named Northern European, Mediterranea etc so if you have 60% Northern European for example it means 60% of your genetic make up is of s component found mostly in Northern Europe.
So if different companies have different population samples there may be some inconsistencies.

Gunnerkid

Ipso wrote: »

Try to find the original post in Eurogenes where he first posted results based on that calculator. There is ine post where he gives explanations.
These kinds of tests use a large data base of various populations, allele frequencies are calculated and where certain alleles are common they are named Northern European, Mediterranea etc so if you have 60% Northern European for example it means 60% of your genetic make up is of s component found mostly in Northern Europe.
So if different companies have different population samples there may be some inconsistencies.

Cheers Ipso for all the advice, I sent my raw data to Doug McDonald and he sent me this back:


Most likely fit is 88.6% (+- 6.8%) Europe (all Western Europe)
and 11.4% (+- 6.8%) Europe (various subcontinents)
which is 100% total Europe

The following are possible population sets and their fractions,
most likely at the top
English= 0.846 Lithuani= 0.154 or
English= 0.790 Belorus= 0.210 or
Irish= 0.443 English= 0.557 or
English= 0.883 Russian= 0.117 or
Irish= 0.883 Tuscan= 0.117 or
English= 0.883 Finland= 0.117 or
Irish= 0.813 Romania= 0.187 or
French= 0.231 Irish= 0.769 or
Irish= 0.874 Italian= 0.126

This is British/Irish plus some substantial northern European

There appears to be a lot of potential population sets from his calculations with Irish/English being pinpointed as the most obvious. I know for a fact that my parents are Irish born and their parents are Irish born. However on my mothers side their has been some speculation of a not to distant relative from Italy, do you think this would be reflective in two of the above population sets, the Irish=0.883 Tuscan=0.117 or Irish=0.874 Italian-0.126. Or would these sets be outweighed by the rest of his calculations??
I'm pretty certain there is no English blood, but it may require me to do some ancestry research in order to clarify that.

Ipso

You have an interesting arc on non Irish that stretches from the Baltic to Italy. Have you asked him if your ancestry from Italy may be represented by this?

Here is what I got from him:
Most likely fit is 100% Orcadian (Western Europe)
which is 100% total Europe
The location error = 0.007236 with 1 group
Most likely fit is 100% Orcadian (Western Europe)
which is 100% total Europe

The following are possible populations,
most likely at the top:
Orcadian= 1.000

The following are possible population sets and their fractions,
most likely at the top
Irish= 0.900 Egyptian= 0.100
Orcadian= 0.925 Moroccan= 0.075
Irish= 0.889 Palestin= 0.111
Irish= 0.896 Bedouin= 0.104
Orcadian= 0.920 Egyptian= 0.080
Irish= 0.911 Moroccan= 0.089
Irish= 0.842 Jewish= 0.158
Orcadian= 0.920 Bedouin= 0.080
Irish= 0.887 Druze= 0.113
Orcadian= 0.943 Mozabite= 0.057

Orcasian represents fringe Western Europe and I'm from the West so it makes sense but the middle eastern bit doesn't.

On Gedmatch there is a new Eurogenes calculator K36 or K 37 that breaks down into a lot of clusters. Try that to see what shows up.

Gunnerkid

Ipso wrote: »

You have an interesting arc on non Irish that stretches from the Baltic to Italy. Have you asked him if your ancestry from Italy may be represented by this?

Here is what I got from him:
Most likely fit is 100% Orcadian (Western Europe)
which is 100% total Europe
The location error = 0.007236 with 1 group
Most likely fit is 100% Orcadian (Western Europe)
which is 100% total Europe

The following are possible populations,
most likely at the top:
Orcadian= 1.000

The following are possible population sets and their fractions,
most likely at the top
Irish= 0.900 Egyptian= 0.100
Orcadian= 0.925 Moroccan= 0.075
Irish= 0.889 Palestin= 0.111
Irish= 0.896 Bedouin= 0.104
Orcadian= 0.920 Egyptian= 0.080
Irish= 0.911 Moroccan= 0.089
Irish= 0.842 Jewish= 0.158
Orcadian= 0.920 Bedouin= 0.080
Irish= 0.887 Druze= 0.113
Orcadian= 0.943 Mozabite= 0.057

Orcasian represents fringe Western Europe and I'm from the West so it makes sense but the middle eastern bit doesn't.

On Gedmatch there is a new Eurogenes calculator K36 or K 37 that breaks down into a lot of clusters. Try that to see what shows up.

Cheers Ipso Ill have to ask him about the potential Italian link. Your population sets are interesting as well, sounds unusual for an Irish person. I took a crack at the K36 but again I'm coming back with lots of close percentages from Iberia to the Northern Caucuses, so Im not quite sure what this means overall but may require me doing some research into my family history

C R Hickey

My haplogroup is I2b and the male line has been traced back to about 1790s in Co. Clare (probably Bunratty area)

It is thought that I2b arrived c.2000BC with early metalworkers

Ipso

C R Hickey wrote: »

My haplogroup is I2b and the male line has been traced back to about 1790s in Co. Clare (probably Bunratty area)

It is thought that I2b arrived c.2000BC with early metalworkers

I am also I2b (actually I2b1a1 now renamed as I2a2a), which subgroup are you?
Did you test at Family Tree DNA?

keryl

I'm R1a1a1g2

Mother's is U5a

Father's Mother U4

Ipso

keryl wrote: »

I'm R1a1a1g2

Mother's is U5a

Father's Mother U4

That R1a sub group seems most common in Slavic areas. Did you test with Family Tree DNA?

keryl

Yeah

The r 1a1a subclade project is trying to piece together how we got here so it's very interesting. It's rare in that it's different to the usual R1a found here. We're from the west so there was talk of being brought by vikings as Slavic slaves

Also the possibility of hanging out with the Celts and just coming with them, a celtic r1a if thats allowed.
Then there's the chance we just came with some English people... Who knows

Ipso

keryl wrote: »

Yeah

The r 1a1a subclade project is trying to piece together how we got here so it's very interesting. It's rare in that it's different to the usual R1a found here. We're from the west so there was talk of being brought by vikings as Slavic slaves

Also the possibility of hanging out with the Celts and just coming with them, a celtic r1a if thats allowed.
Then there's the chance we just came with some English people... Who knows

If you tested at FTDNA your closest Y match may give an idea. Mayo also has higher than average numbers of I-M253 so Vikings may be a possibility, or like you say maybe MrR1a was a tag along.

dubhthach

Ipso wrote: »

That R1a sub group seems most common in Slavic areas. Did you test with Family Tree DNA?

R1a is quite diverse, just like we can argue that R1b is diverse. Here's a great diagram from the R1a1a & Subclades project on FTDNA



R1a-L664 (R1a1a1a) is "North-West European" in origin, whereas the Slavic R1a all tends to fall under R1a1a1b*

These are old haplogroups.

The latest Haplogroup R tree from ISOGG can be found here:
http://www.isogg.org/tree/ISOGG_HapgrpR.html

keryl

Yeah the Germanic and Slavic R1a has been narrowed down a lot

Either way it's great to be in a group that's still being discovered

Just to add, those of us in the subgrouping of the R1a project are closely matched. All it took was one person to come along and 'confuse' us now. It's not necessarily a bunch of this certain r1a that came together...

It's hard to determine if those in the subgroup all descend from the surname I have or did we get it from one of the 3 names tested.

Ipso

keryl wrote: »

Yeah the Germanic and Slavic R1a has been narrowed down a lot

Either way it's great to be in a group that's still being discovered

Just to add, those of us in the subgrouping of the R1a project are closely matched. All it took was one person to come along and 'confuse' us now. It's not necessarily a bunch of this certain r1a that came together...

It's hard to determine if those in the subgroup all descend from the surname I have or did we get it from one of the 3 names tested.

Are all the other surnames Irish? One thing I noticed in my own subgroup (my closest matches have a Scottish name with a similar Gaelic one to mine) is that matches that are estimated to around the time of surname adoptions have surnames that are way off.
When looking through a site that had a lot of different results I remember seeing something similar where very different surnames where linked in a time frame where you would expect a similar surname.
The adoption of surnames seems to have been a bit "unstructured" for want of a better word.

Ipso

dubhthach wrote: »

R1a is quite diverse, just like we can argue that R1b is diverse. Here's a great diagram from the R1a1a & Subclades project on FTDNA



R1a-L664 (R1a1a1a) is "North-West European" in origin, whereas the Slavic R1a all tends to fall under R1a1a1b*

These are old haplogroups.

The latest Haplogroup R tree from ISOGG can be found here:
http://www.isogg.org/tree/ISOGG_HapgrpR.html

That's actually the chart I had a look at, keryl is L260 I think.

keryl

Yeah L260, that will change though I'm sure.

Other surnames are English and Norman and 'native' Irish.

The native Irish is downstream so can rule that out, also compared to the other project for the name-they are all r1b.
The Norman could be the originator but this person is the only or only 2/3 that is R1a in a majority r1b and E project.
The English name is the only R1a in his group.

That said, my name R eaney is different to the others of my surname who are all r1b... We know the origin of most of those though, Ulster-Scots...

Waitsian

Should I be embarrassed, or are there others like me in the same boat, to admit that this whole thread may as well be in Vietnamese or Hindi for all I understand it?

dubhthach

mod9maple wrote: »

Should I be embarrassed, or are there others like me in the same boat, to admit that this whole thread may as well be in Vietnamese or Hindi for all I understand it?

The thread is talking about Y-Chromsome Haplogroups. Every man by definition carries a Y-Chromosome. He inherits this from his father who in turn inherited it form his father etc etc.

Men who thus share a common ancestor (male-line) will show similiarity in their Y-Chromosomes, as they would have each inherited their Y from that common ancestor.

keryl

mod9maple wrote: »

Should I be embarrassed, or are there others like me in the same boat, to admit that this whole thread may as well be in Vietnamese or Hindi for all I understand it?

Embarrassed? not at all. I don't know what I'm on about half the time.

Different strokes etc:D

owenc

What about a percentage dna test. Still looking around but can't find one. Found one called dnatribes but was really confusing. Any suggestions?

keryl

What about the National Geographic?

They have Northern European, Southern European and say Asia, depending obviously on your ancestry.

So mine was 45% Northern, 35% Southern and 20% Southwest Asia

I take those type tests with a pinch of salt...

RGM

keryl wrote: »

What about the National Geographic?

They have Northern European, Southern European and say Asia, depending obviously on your ancestry.

So mine was 45% Northern, 35% Southern and 20% Southwest Asia

I take those type tests with a pinch of salt...

The thing is different tests are trying to tell you different things. The Geno 2.0 test from National Geographic tries to paint a picture of your past that is much more different than 23andMe, for example.