Secular Education

Burning Eclipse

I'm saying this upfront so it puts my comments in perspective. My son is not, nor will he ever be baptised. I consider myself very lucky that he has a place in a great educate together school when it's time for him to attend primary school. That being said:

I really hate the idea of doing this (baptism) for the sake of going to a "good school". I've lost track of the amount of threads on here where people talk about how they are atheists, or at very least have serious issues with the RCC, and in the same post say "of course the kids are baptised". Is a school 'good' if they have a Catholic ethos and your kids have none? Surely a non-denominational school is a better fit? If there are none in the area, how far is too far to travel for a secular education?

Again, I realise this is a situation that I don't have to deal with, but I just don't understand how someone can be so opposed to the church yet not see that by baptising your child, you're continuing to prop up their numbers... It's a self-fulfilling prophecy for them - kids are baptised to get into their schools, schools remain overwhelmingly Catholic because so many kids are baptised, etc.

This isn't a judgement on anyone who does this, because I know you have to make what you think are the right decisions for your children. I'm also curious as to where this is happening. I'm from a rural area originally (3-teacher school sort of thing) and anyone was welcome in that school. Now I live in a city, and the ET school is open to anyone who applies (subject to classroom space) and is centrally located, so getting to it isn't much of an issue.

So, to all members here - those who have kids in full time education, and those who will be dealing with this in future... How important is it to you that your kids go to a non-religious school?

Penn

I don't have children. However, when discussing this topic, I always think about what would happen if I had children where I currently live. Truth is, the nearest Educate Together school is almost half an hour away. No buses for it come near my house. No relatives live near it. Which means if my child was sent to that school, huge provisions would have to be made in terms of getting the child to and from school at times which would be awkward if both parents were working. It's hugely inconvenient.

The local Catholic school (where I went as a child), the bus goes right past my house, I have several relations living along that bus route and some within easy walking distance of the school.

Even though my children won't be baptised, if I was still living where I currently am, I would attempt to get my child into the local RC school, because it's just far more convenient. I'd prefer them to go to an ET school, but again, the provisions and planning which would be required could make it very difficult.

This is why the number of ET schools being built is irrelevant when it comes to people living in rural areas, because there isn't enough demand for them in those areas even though there are people who would prefer it or wouldn't care either way. The cultural catholics start planning the baptism as soon as the child is born, which means they don't have that problem. Once that water is sprinkled, the child is more likely to be admitted to an RC school than my child, regardless of location or anything.

Dades

Burning Eclipse wrote: »

So, to all members here - those who have kids in full time education, and those who will be dealing with this in future... How important is it to you that your kids go to a non-religious school?

For me it's important, but by no means the most important factor. It's a decision we'll be making this year in our house and it's by no means easy.

Kiwi in IE

Would love to send my son, who starts school in September, to a secular school. The two closest ED schools are both an hour round trip. As a family we can't be doing that twice a day, every day for the next 8 years. As we are both Nurses, my partner and I have to rely on family and friends occasionally to mind our son when shifts clash. I can't expect them to drive for 2 hours a day at times they would collect him for us. It is also not fair to send him to school outside his community so all his friends live a half hour drive away.

Can Catholic schools actually refuse you because you are not Catholic? What is the law on this? It seems absurd that they can refuse anyone for not being Catholic when 90% of all state run, tax payer funded schools are Catholic!

We have decided to send our son to the local COI school. Still religious and not ideal, but no communion or confirmation preperation in school hours and less class time spent on religion overall. Also a few of the wackier beliefs of Catholicism don't apply to Anglicanism, and they appear more tolerant of women, gay people etc. To me it is the lesser of two evils. They didn't have an issue with my son being no religion.

On saying that we also enrolled him in the local Catholic school when we were still undecided. They asked for his baptismal certificate. I told them he dosn't have one and is no religion (he was baptised unfortunately because it was so important to my partners mother, but I wasn't going to admit that to them). He was still accepted to the school despite that.

Tipsygypsy

It is very important to me that my kids go to an ET school, religion is part of the reason, but not all. There is no bus to bring them and the school is nearly 30km away. I've driven them every (school) day for the last 6 years. It takes the guts of an hour, twice a day, and in my previous car was costing me nearly €100 in petrol every week. (that's over €3000 per year - of which I receive approx €800 back in the form of a remote area grant). I have just changed to a diesel car and so have halved that. Sometimes (as I'm driving past the local catholic school which is within walking distance) I wonder if I'm completely mad. But I see my kids going into school in such a wonderful positive environment, where parental involvement is welcome and encouraged, where everyone is respected equally, where teachers are called by their first names, where there is no uniform and children are encouraged to find themselves and be creative and comfortable with themselves. AND where no religion is forced on them and they are taught that we are all equal irrespective of belief/gender/colour/sexual preference etc and they learn about religion in a historical, cultural and social context as opposed to learning it as fact and being indoctrinated into any one faith. When I consider all of that I KNOW we're doing the right thing, and as long as we can afford to do so, we will. Despite the fact that finances are tight, and its a LOT of money and time, it really has been worth it. For us.

Kiwi in IE

Anyway, how can a four and a half year old child be 'a religion'? It is a ridiculous concept. Official forms for children asking religion should be worded "What religion do you intend to attempt to indoctrinate them with?", rather than what religion ARE they!

December2012

I'm not an athiest or agnostic - I don't know what I am tbh. "Raised" a catholic.

Have young children who I had baptised in case the promised secular schools in my area were not built in time.

Thankfully the schools are built and the eldest starts this year. She won't make her communion, confirmation etc unless she wants to herself when she's older. Same with the second, who is now pre registered.

School is not ET, but is multi denominational so gives religious education on all religions and none, no religious instruction.

Why did I baptise them, even though it props up membership of an organisation I disagree with?

Because their education is more important than their religion, and I wanted a back up school.

Happily now it will never be needed!

Tipsygypsy

Kiwi in IE wrote: »

Anyway, how can a four and a half year old child be 'a religion'? It is a ridiculous concept. Official forms for children asking religion should be worded "What religion do you intend to attempt to indoctrinate them with?", rather than what religion ARE they!

This.

Because they learn so about so many religions, my kids regularly come home saying the want to be a different religion. At the time of the last census they were going through a Buddhists phase, and so our census form was returned with 1 Atheist, 1 Pagan, 2 Buddhists and 1 undecided (because he was only 3 and not ready to commit). When the nice catholic lady came to the door to collect it she certainly raised an eyebrow. Still makes me giggle.

eviltwin

I have no idea what will happen when my youngest starts school. My eldest went to a Catholic school but ET's were just a pipe dream then. I found it really hard not to have her involved in the religion side of things and have had a lot of problems with the school.

We are lucky to have 6 ET schools in the area and I have my son's name down for all of them so hopefully one will come through for us. What is interesting is our local Catholic boys school have been canvasing for pupils. Now my son isn't bapthised and I mentioned this to a person from the school who called to the door and they couldn't have been nicer, no religion is not a problem - at one stage you had to produce a bapthism cert to get into the school. Even more interesting they are trying to organise classes so non Catholics won't have to sit in on religious class.

Even so I don't really want to support a Catholic school so I'm in a bit of a quandry really.

Hotblack Desiato

Depends on what the admission policy says Kiwi, but yes, schools are allowed discriminate on the basis of religion and that goes for the teachers they hire as well as the kids they admit. Hopefully this will be the next social issue Europe drags Ireland into the 20th [sic] century over, once the X case is legislated for, but I won't hold my breath.

Kiwi in IE

But non religious tax payers must fund these schools! How can they be allowed to refuse our children?

robindch

Kiwi in IE wrote: »

But non religious tax payers must fund these schools! How can they be allowed to refuse our children?

Because the law, as enacted by the nation's elected politicians, says they can. It's in the Equal Status Act (2000), section 7:

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2000/en/act/pub/0008/sec0007.html#sec7

And explained on page 13, in a helpful book produced by the Department of Education:

http://www.education.ie/en/Publications/Education-Reports/ge_schools_and_equality.pdf

The undefined, and poisonous, word "ethos" is the sole justification for this sectarian crap.

Peregrinus

Kiwi in IE wrote: »

But non religious tax payers must fund these schools! How can they be allowed to refuse our children?

If they have a free place, they'll admit your child. But if there's competition for the place - if more parent apply for places than there are places funded - then they can prioritise applicants according to criteria which can include religion.

Shenshen

I don't have children yet, but I think I would be very, very much torn.
There is no question about baptism, if any of my future offspring want that they can do it once their legally of age, not before.

But I do not live near an ET school. There are a handful of primary and secondary schools in the little town where I live, but the nearest ET school is in the next town, 20 minutes drive away. There are no buses, and to take the train you'd have to change trains half-way. I've never done that, but I would imagine it might take all of an hour to actually get there, and then you'd have to walk from the train station to the school itself.

Now, for an educational and ethical point of view, I would want to send my kids to the ET school. But that would mean taking them out of the community in which they will have grown up.
While their neighbours and friends will most likely be going to one of the local schools, my children would not.

I grew up in Germany, where the primary school you attend isn't actually a matter of choice. They are all secular, state-run schools, and you attend the one closest to your home.
So when I was growing up, I attended the local school, with all the kids in my neighbourhood.
Once you move on from primary in Germany, there are a lot of options. Depending on your grades, you can attend Hauptschule, Realschule or Grammar school. And with Grammar schools, you can pick different focuses as well (science focused, language focused, etc.) So when primary school ended, nearly everyone in my class ended up in a different school.
And most of the friendships we had formed fell apart within the first year.
We still lived next door to each other, we hadn't fallen out, but going to different schools meant that all of a sudden, we seemed to have so much less in common.

I found that very sad at the time, and I wouldn't be happy doing the same to my own children...

Tipsygypsy

But that would mean taking them out of the community in which they will have grown up. While their neighbours and friends will most likely be going to one of the local schools, my children would not

I worried about this too, when the kids were small, that all of their school friends live so far away, and they wouldn't get to know the local kids. But once they started joining local sports clubs (football and athletics) they've gotten to know lots of local kids, so it has worked out ok.
I do know my eldest is worried about where he'll go to secondary school. There is a new VEC opening near their primary school and some of his mates will be going there, he would like to go there to be with his friends but I haven't been at all impressed with any of the open evenings they've had so far. I don't know what we'll do. None of the schools I've looked at come close to the type of education I'd like them to have.

pwurple

Burning Eclipse wrote: »

Is a school 'good' if they have a Catholic ethos and your kids have none?

Not necessarily. I rate schools based on their location, their results, what secondary schools they are 'feeders' for. What students of those secondary schools acheive in the leaving cert.

I'm catholic, the 'good' schools by my own rating system near me are a protestant school and a catholic one. They are enroled in both. The ET one doesn't rate as it's too new, and untested, and my kid isn't going to be the guinea pig. If it had a decent track record I'd send them there though.

lazygal

Shenshen wrote: »

And most of the friendships we had formed fell apart within the first year.
We still lived next door to each other, we hadn't fallen out, but going to different schools meant that all of a sudden, we seemed to have so much less in common.

I found that very sad at the time, and I wouldn't be happy doing the same to my own children...

TBH this happens to most people, even when they go to the same secondary school. Most of the boys in my primary went to the local christian brothers and the girls to the convent school. Sure I maintained one or two friendships but they fizzled out as we realised primary school was the only thing we had in common. Very few of my current friends are those I started junior infants with and in my wider circle most people wouldn't have close friends from primary school. The same can happen when you move from secondary to college, suddenly the things that bound you in friendship, mostly school related, aren't there anymore and people move on. Its natural to lose and gain friends throughout life.

Dades

Shenshen wrote: »

Now, for an educational and ethical point of view, I would want to send my kids to the ET school. But that would mean taking them out of the community in which they will have grown up.
While their neighbours and friends will most likely be going to one of the local schools, my children would not.

That's my current issue. My daughter has great friends in montessori who all live around and who are all going to the local RC school - including her cousin (actually my cousin's kid) who lives about 100 yrds from us. The RC is 5 mins walk, whereas the ET school is 20 mins away by car. (And while I'm looking to move house, there ain't much out that or any direction!)

Nightmare decision, tbh.

lazygal

Dades wrote: »

That's my current issue. My daughter has great friends in montessori who all live around and who are all going to the local RC school - including her cousin who lives about 100 yrds from us. The RC is 5 mins walk, whereas the ET school is 20 mins away by car. (And while I'm looking to move house, there ain't much out that or any direction!)

Nightmare decision, tbh.

I've taught Montessori and while they like their friends in primary for the initial settling in phase, those friendships aren't really rock solid at such a young age. Our local RC school where most of my pupils went, and is our second option, has five JI classes so even though friends might go there, they don't end up in the same class. I think people are underestimating children's ability to adapt.

Dades

lazygal wrote: »

I've taught Montessori and while they like their friends in primary for the initial settling in phase, those friendships aren't really rock solid at such a young age. Our local RC school where most of my pupils went, and is our second option, has five JI classes so even though friends might go there, they don't end up in the same class. I think people are underestimating children's ability to adapt.

I have absolute faith in kids to adapt and accept to new situations. It's really the location and the family tie that's the stumbling block. It does benefit the child to be in school with the local kids for parties/weekends/evenings etc, and it's a huge plus for everyone to be close so they can walk themselves in a few years.

robindch

Dades wrote: »

That's my current issue. My daughter has great friends in montessori who all live around and who are all going to the local RC school [...]

18 months ago, Snowflake -- mirabile dictu -- got a place in an ET school around a mile from her Montessori school and she'd made an entirely new set of friends within days.

Embarrassingly, we bumped into one of the old friends a few weeks ago and Snowflake didn't recognize her. Though, to be fair, I didn't either as the intervening years seemed to have been filled with nothing but pizzas, crisps and ice-cream.

Sierra 117

robindch wrote: »

Though, to be fair, I didn't either as the intervening years seemed to have been filled with nothing but pizzas, crisps and ice-cream.

Regrettably, that sounds exactly like the past decade of my life.

Dades

robindch wrote: »

18 months ago, Snowflake -- mirabile dictu -- got a place in an ET school around a mile from her Montessori school and she'd made an entirely new set of friends within days.

Aye. Keeping friends is the least important factor in any I've mentioned - bar the family connection.

Rev Hellfire

There's a lot to be said for convenience when both sets of parents are working which is increasingly the norm these days.

I'll take the location and reputation of a school ahead of friends and ethos any day.

Kiwi in IE

Dades wrote: »

That's my current issue. My daughter has great friends in montessori who all live around and who are all going to the local RC school - including her cousin (actually my cousin's kid) who lives about 100 yrds from us. The RC is 5 mins walk, whereas the ET school is 20 mins away by car. (And while I'm looking to move house, there ain't much out that or any direction!)

Nightmare decision, tbh.

My family is in the same situation Dades. Our heads have been done in about which school to send Little Kiwi for the past 18 months. It is a complete nightmare. Religious rituals are out, but so is me giving up my job to drive 2 hours a day to attend closest ET. We decided on local COI school which is very liberal and commonly accepted as the 'Catholic opt out' school in the area. Only 50% are officially COI, the rest are no religion, other religions or non practising Catholics. Best of all there is no communion and the COI confirmation classes are done after school, not in class time. It is by no means perfect but definitely the best choice of what we have. He has a couple of friends and neighbours going there to.

Tipsygypsy

Do check with that ET how far their buses travel, often the bus routes for ET schools extend much much further than you would expect. I've been working on a map of the geographical spread of children attending ET schools in Galway (Im working with the startup group for a 2nd Level ET) and you would be astonished at the distance people travel. I'm very unlucky that there is no bus to my area - thankfully Im self-employed and only work part-time anyway, so I can do the driving - but the buses that do service our school travel around 20 miles away to drop/pick up kids. Worth checking if transport is a deciding factor.

Birroc

Burning Eclipse wrote: »

So, to all members here - those who have kids in full time education, and those who will be dealing with this in future... How important is it to you that your kids go to a non-religious school?

My 2 kids go to a Catholic school but they weren't baptised. The school is grand about it. There are several kids in each class that are not Catholic. The school is more concerned about keeping up numbers than what religion the kids have. They asked once for a baptism cert at the start but we just ignored it and they never asked again.