Boiler not firing up [Firebird]

monthehoops

Hi folks,

I have the attached Firebird boiler. At the moment it isn't firing up. I've already discounted a few things:

1 - I have plenty of oil
2 - The "eye" is spotless. I've taken it out the other day and it is completely clean. Previously I had issues with this as it got dirty but since a new service I've not had these problems.


Two things I have noticed:

1 - There is a kind of rattling noise coming from the circulating pump (highlighted in yellow).
2 - When I press the red reset button at the front of the boiler and let it go again, prevously the boiler would turn off for about 10 seconds and I'd press the reset button again and it would fire up. Now however, once I let the red reset button go the boiler does not shut down but rather continues to try to fire as previous.

So I reckon it's the circulating pump but can't be sure. I know very little about the system. How can I be sure it's this? Also, is this easily replaced myself and how much do they cost?

Pic attached, thanks in advance.

P.S. I searched for other topics but couldn't find anything to do with the circulating pump.

shane0007

monthehoops wrote: »

Hi folks,

I have the attached Firebird boiler. At the moment it isn't firing up. I've already discounted a few things:

1 - I have plenty of oil
2 - The "eye" is spotless. I've taken it out the other day and it is completely clean. Previously I had issues with this as it got dirty but since a new service I've not had these problems.


Two things I have noticed:

1 - There is a kind of rattling noise coming from the circulating pump (highlighted in yellow).
2 - When I press the red reset button at the front of the boiler and let it go again, prevously the boiler would turn off for about 10 seconds and I'd press the reset button again and it would fire up. Now however, once I let the red reset button go the boiler does not shut down but rather continues to try to fire as previous.

So I reckon it's the circulating pump but can't be sure. I know very little about the system. How can I be sure it's this? Also, is this easily replaced myself and how much do they cost?

Pic attached, thanks in advance.

P.S. I searched for other topics but couldn't find anything to do with the circulating pump.

Disconnect the cable from the photocell going into the control box. Press reset & if it goes to lock out, then it is a faulty photocell. If not, report back.

Dtp79

monthehoops wrote: »

Hi folks,

I have the attached Firebird boiler. At the moment it isn't firing up. I've already discounted a few things:

1 - I have plenty of oil
2 - The "eye" is spotless. I've taken it out the other day and it is completely clean. Previously I had issues with this as it got dirty but since a new service I've not had these problems.


Two things I have noticed:

1 - There is a kind of rattling noise coming from the circulating pump (highlighted in yellow).
2 - When I press the red reset button at the front of the boiler and let it go again, prevously the boiler would turn off for about 10 seconds and I'd press the reset button again and it would fire up. Now however, once I let the red reset button go the boiler does not shut down but rather continues to try to fire as previous.

So I reckon it's the circulating pump but can't be sure. I know very little about the system. How can I be sure it's this? Also, is this easily replaced myself and how much do they cost?

Pic attached, thanks in advance.

P.S. I searched for other topics but couldn't find anything to do with the circulating pump.

Is you're boiler firing and continuing to run or just going through the motions then lockout after 10 seconds?

monthehoops

shane0007 wrote: »

Disconnect the cable from the photocell going into the control box. Press reset & if it goes to lock out, then it is a faulty photocell. If not, report back.

Ok so remove the black lead (photocell), press reset and see if it fires up?

Dtp79 wrote: »

Is you're boiler firing and continuing to run or just going through the motions then lockout after 10 seconds?

It's trying to fire, failing and continuing to run. When this has happened before it's switched itself off after a few tries (is this what you mean by lockout?). Basically it doesn't cut out at any point, just continues to attempt to fire.

Dtp79

monthehoops wrote: »

Ok so remove the black lead (photocell), press reset and see if it fires up?



It's trying to fire, failing and continuing to run. When this has happened before it's switched itself off after a few tries (is this what you mean by lockout?). Basically it doesn't cut out at any point, just continues to attempt to fire.

Have you tried what shane0007 said

monthehoops

Dtp79 wrote: »

Have you tried what shane0007 said

No, i will when I get back to it tonight. Thanks lads.

.jacksparrow.

shane0007 wrote: »

Disconnect the cable from the photocell going into the control box. Press reset & if it goes to lock out, then it is a faulty photocell. If not, report back.

Can you explain how this works Shane please?never tried it before.

Wearb

This is the connection that Shane was writing about. (highlighted in red) There are one or two screws on top of the control box to open to get to this connection. There is mains power in there, so if you are not comfortable with that then leave it alone and get someone qualified to do it.

monthehoops

Ok update. I pulled out the photocell itself and hit reset. After the reset it fired up for a split second (with the photocell out) but then powered down (locked out?)

The photocell is clean but perhaps a little browned about the edges, can't be certain.

I haven't gone near the control box, mind, but am guessing the photocell is the issue. Are they expensive? Can I replace or do I need someone to replace it?

Billy Bunting

monthehoops wrote: »

I haven't gone near the control box, mind, but am guessing the photocell is the issue.

With respect, people here are trying to help, they do not wish to guess the problem so following the instructions and answering the questions are the only way you can be helped.

monthehoops

Billy Bunting wrote: »

With respect, people here are trying to help, they do not wish to guess the problem so following the instructions and answering the questions are the only way you can be helped.

I haven't gone near the control box because "if you are not comfortable with that then leave it alone"

I didn't put in or out on your day, friend. If I change the photocell it will be at my own expense. I'm not asking anyone to provide me with a definitive answer on what's wrong, nor am I looking to hold anyone accountable should something go awry. Thanks for your concern.

Wearb

monthehoops wrote: »

Ok update. I pulled out the photocell itself and hit reset. After the reset it fired up for a split second (with the photocell out) but then powered down (locked out?)

The photocell is clean but perhaps a little browned about the edges, can't be certain.

I haven't gone near the control box, mind, but am guessing the photocell is the issue. Are they expensive? Can I replace or do I need someone to replace it?

Is it (the burner) doing something different with the photocell pulled out of the burner body than it was doing with it in there?

They are about 20 euro. A clean cell is not an indication of its working condition. Your guess could be right, but it is still just a guess and I am still unsure of exactly what is happening with your burner.

jimf

you have to follow the instructions shane advised in post 2 this means you have to open the control box and remove the photocell from the control box when you have this done advise back and let us know the outcome a lot of the problems with oil burners are solved by the process of elimination at the moment 4 things spring to mind that could be causing the symptoms photocell coil control box and motor voltage to control box

monthehoops

Wearb wrote: »

Is it (the burner) doing something different with the photocell pulled out of the burner body than it was doing with it in there?

They are about 20 euro. A clean cell is not an indication of its working condition. Your guess could be right, but it is still just a guess and I am still unsure of exactly what is happening with your burner.

Yeah with the photocell in, and running without my interference, then the boiler attempts to fire over and over but never cuts out. If I press reset it does nothing.

With the photocell out, the boiler fires up but then cuts out as you'd expect. The reset button works in this scenario as expected.

Thanks for the help.

monthehoops

jimf wrote: »

you have to follow the instructions shane advised in post 2 this means you have to open the control box and remove the photocell from the control box when you have this done advise back and let us know the outcome a lot of the problems with oil burners are solved by the process of elimination at the moment 4 things spring to mind that could be causing the symptoms photocell coil control box and motor voltage to control box

Thanks I'll have a look and get back later.

.jacksparrow.

If he disconnects the photocell is it not always gonna go into lockout?or am I missing something.

shane0007

Sorry, just in the door. Nightmare day.
I understood the boiler was running and running without going to lock out. Then you say it is going to lock out. Which is it?
If it attempting to fire and then eventually going to lock out and going to lock out when you pull the photocell out of the burner, then there are 2 possible reasons:
1. A faulty photocell is not reading the lux being offered to it.
2. Air/fuel ratio out so much that it does not like the lux reading it is receiving. An over-aired burner can often do this.

Probable cause: faulty photocell

Wearb

monthehoops wrote: »

Yeah with the photocell in, and running without my interference, then the boiler attempts to fire over and over but never cuts out. If I press reset it does nothing.

Thanks for the help.

There is a difference between continuous running and trying to fire over and over; Is "trying to fire over and over" exactly what it is doing?


If you stick with us we might be able to pin it down exactly. Otherwise, if you purchase a photocell, try and get the shop to agree to take it back if that isn't the problem. Make sure not to get them mixed up.

shane0007

.jacksparrow. wrote: »

Can you explain how this works Shane please?never tried it before.

If the burner is running and running and never goes to lock out or never tries to fire, there are 4 possible causes:
1. Faulty photocell
2. Faulty coil
3. Faulty motor
4. Faulty control box

Test each in this sequence also.
To test:
1. Remove the electrical connection of the photocell from the CB. If it goes to lock out, you have remove the problem causing te symptom, i.e. the photocell so the CB can proceed to lock out.
2. If the problem persists with the photocell disconnected, then test the resistance of the coil. If not within MI, replace coil.
3. If coil is correct, test the white wire from the motor to ensure it is delivering 50V to the CB. If not, replace motor. (This is an extremely rare fault)
4. Replace CB.

jimf

just as a matter of interest have you adjusted any settings on the burner yourself poster i too thought the burner was running constantly with no attempt to fire

Billy Bunting

shane0007 wrote: »

2. Air/fuel ratio out so much that it does not like the lux reading it is receiving. An over-aired burner can often do this.

I'd go for 2, but its not something you can play with without specialist toys.

.jacksparrow.

shane0007 wrote: »

If the burner is running and running and never goes to lock out or never tries to fire, there are 4 possible causes:
1. Faulty photocell
2. Faulty coil
3. Faulty motor
4. Faulty control box

Test each in this sequence also.
To test:
1. Remove the electrical connection of the photocell from the CB. If it goes to lock out, you have remove the problem causing te symptom, i.e. the photocell so the CB can proceed to lock out.
2. If the problem persists with the photocell disconnected, then test the resistance of the coil. If not within MI, replace coil.
3. If coil is correct, test the white wire from the motor to ensure it is delivering 50V to the CB. If not, replace motor. (This is an extremely rare fault)
4. Replace CB.

I see,its just if you disconnect the photocell the burner will always go to lockout as it can't see a flame,ah I'm probably picking it up wrong!

jimf

Billy Bunting wrote: »

I'd go for 2, but its not something you can play with without specialist toys.

very expensive little toys billy namely flugas analyser

Billy Bunting

jimf wrote: »

very expensive little toys billy namely flugas analyser

Bet my toys are bigger than yours. :P

.jacksparrow.

I get it now Shane,but I think it might be confusing to someone who wouldn't know about oil burners,if they disconnect it it could go straight to lockout when there is nothing wrong with the cell,its just doing its job,but it is a handy tip ill remember for future reference.

jimf

Billy Bunting wrote: »

Bet my toys are bigger than yours. :P

now now big boys and our toys

monthehoops

shane0007 wrote: »

Sorry, just in the door. Nightmare day.
I understood the boiler was running and running without going to lock out. Then you say it is going to lock out. Which is it?
If it attempting to fire and then eventually going to lock out and going to lock out when you pull the photocell out of the burner, then there are 2 possible reasons:
1. A faulty photocell is not reading the lux being offered to it.
2. Air/fuel ratio out so much that it does not like the lux reading it is receiving. An over-aired burner can often do this.

Probable cause: faulty photocell

The boiler runs and runs (attempting to fire over and over) without going to lockout. If I press reset it just runs again immediately and never goes to lock out.

If I pull out the photocell and press reset then the boiler actually fires for a second or two before going to lock out. I don't think I can explain it any clearer, sorry. It doesn't lock out with photocell in, it does lock out with the photocell out.

Wearb wrote: »

There is a difference between continuous running and trying to fire over and over; Is "trying to fire over and over" exactly what it is doing?


If you stick with us we might be able to pin it down exactly. Otherwise, if you purchase a photocell, try and get the shop to agree to take it back if that isn't the problem. Make sure not to get them mixed up.

Cheers. I could get one in any B&Q?

jimf

shane0007 wrote: »

If the burner is running and running and never goes to lock out or never tries to fire, there are 4 possible causes:
1. Faulty photocell
2. Faulty coil
3. Faulty motor
4. Faulty control box

Test each in this sequence also.
To test:
1. Remove the electrical connection of the photocell from the CB. If it goes to lock out, you have remove the problem causing te symptom, i.e. the photocell so the CB can proceed to lock out.
2. If the problem persists with the photocell disconnected, then test the resistance of the coil. If not within MI, replace coil.
3. If coil is correct, test the white wire from the motor to ensure it is delivering 50V to the CB. If not, replace motor. (This is an extremely rare fault)
4. Replace CB.

shane could you elaborate a little on item 3 please my understanding is the control box takes its control voltage ie 53v from a built in transformer in the motor if this transformer were to go faulty does this then mean that the voltage now going back to control box is 220/240v or is it zero voltage if 220/240 surely this would fry the control box

agusta

monthehoops wrote: »

The boiler runs and runs (attempting to fire over and over) without going to lockout. If I press reset it just runs again immediately and never goes to lock out.

If I pull out the photocell and press reset then the boiler actually fires for a second or two before going to lock out. I don't think I can explain it any clearer, sorry. It doesn't lock out with photocell in, it does lock out with the photocell out.



Cheers. I could get one in any B&Q?

Hi,You wont get one in B&Q,You will have to go to plumber merchant.Yes it seems like the photocell is gone.The burner should make no attempt to fire when the photocell is out!,Reason because the photocell see light instead of darkness so its getting incorrect lux reading.If you turn off power and remove photocell completely from control box,its just a push in connector.Then start up burner once more and if it goes to lock out its 110 percent the photocell.Shane said this in post 2

Billy Bunting

agusta wrote: »

If you turn off power and remove photocell completely from control box,its just a push in connector.Then start up burner once more and if it goes to lock out its 110 percent the photocell.Shane said this in post 2

He's not comfortable doing that, he'll pull the other end out but the philips screw is a little worrying.

He need the man, the Oftec man!!

shane0007

.jacksparrow. wrote: »

I see,its just if you disconnect the photocell the burner will always go to lockout as it can't see a flame,ah I'm probably picking it up wrong!

No, if say the coil was causing the continuous running and the photocell was removed, it would not go to lock out. By disconnecting the photocell and then it goes to lock out, you are 100% proving it was a faulty photocell.

shane0007

jimf wrote: »

shane could you elaborate a little on item 3 please my understanding is the control box takes its control voltage ie 53v from a built in transformer in the motor if this transformer were to go faulty does this then mean that the voltage now going back to control box is 220/240v or is it zero voltage if 220/240 surely this would fry the control box

The white wire is FROM the motor. It should read 50V +/- 3V. If no voltage is present then the motor is faulty.

jimf

shane0007 wrote: »

The white wire is FROM the motor. It should read 50V +/- 3V. If no voltage is present then the motor is faulty.

thanks shane

as you already stated this problem is rare i have yet to encounter it in 4 years but was just wondering what to expect if and when i come across 1

shane0007

Symptom would be continuous running burner without going to lock out or attempting to fire. White wire will read zero voltage. Pump motor will be running as it is receiving 230V but it is not seeing back 50V +/- 3V.

If anybody does come across it, please do not chuck the motor. Let me know and I will take it off your hands.

Dtp79

shane0007 wrote: »

Symptom would be continuous running burner without going to lock out or attempting to fire. White wire will read zero voltage. Pump motor will be running as it is receiving 230V but it is not seeing back 50V +/- 3V.

If anybody does come across it, please do not chuck the motor. Let me know and I will take it off your hands.

You fix them?

shane0007

Dtp79 wrote: »

You fix them?

No

monthehoops

Billy Bunting wrote: »

He's not comfortable doing that, he'll pull the other end out but the philips screw is a little worrying.

He need the man, the Oftec man!!

I'm not comfortable going near mains power. Thanks though, you've been a great help in the thread.

TPM

monthehoops wrote: »

I'm not comfortable going near mains power. Thanks though, you've been a great help in the thread.

If you are not comfortable doing anything, you are doing exactly the right thing by staying away from it. Its all to easy for something to go wrong specially when someone is feeling uneasy.

Billy Bunting

monthehoops wrote: »

I'm not comfortable going near mains power. Thanks though, you've been a great help in the thread.

You came asking for help, as early as post #2 you were asked to carry out a simple test to prove an issue, you replied that you would do so later, you were even given a highlighted picture of the conection, later last night you return and start guessing and giving conflicting infomation, . I'm sorry but as i previously stated following the instructions and answering the questions are the only way you can be helped, the people here trying to help are professionals and use guessing as a last resort, if your not comfortable with electrics then you need to get someone in who is.

monthehoops

Billy Bunting wrote: »

You came asking for help, as early as post #2 you were asked to carry out a simple test to prove an issue, you replied that you would do so later, you were even given a highlighted picture of the conection, later last night you return and start guessing and giving conflicting infomation, . I'm sorry but as i previously stated following the instructions and answering the questions are the only way you can be helped, the people here trying to help are professionals and use guessing as a last resort, if your not comfortable with electrics then you need to get someone in who is.

Yes, I said I'd do it later. Then I saw a post stating that if I wasn't comfortable with mains power then I should get someone else to do it. I'm not asking anyone to guess anything, I've made up my own mind on the info I've gotten that it's the photocell. If it turns out not to be then it's something beyond my knowledge. You entered the conversation with attitude immediately. Everyone else was ok about it.

If I was a boiler ninja like you then maybe it wouldn't be so difficult to explain the scenario. But then we all can't be expert in that field can we. I doubt for example that you know anything about virtualisation, software defined networking or disk technologies but I wouldn't rub it in your face for asking a question about it.

Finally, where do boiler ninjas train? Or do they even train? Are they simply formed from antimatter?

Thanks to everyone else for their help on this. Like any profession there's one or two know it alls.

Billy Bunting

I would imagine a smart ninja like you could use you virtualisation software to fix your burner, good luck with it.

shane0007

monthehoops wrote: »

I doubt for example that you know anything about virtualisation, software defined networking or disk technologies but I wouldn't rub it in your face for asking a question about it.

Now that you mention it.... Lol
Just kidding!

monthehoops wrote: »

Finally, where do boiler ninjas train? Or do they even train? Are they simply formed from antimatter?

Yes they CAN train but many don't. For oil it is not law as yet but hopefully in the not so, it will be.

If you do not feel comfortable, I certainly do not take offence that you did not go at the electrics of the boiler. Always best practice of safety first.
IMHO, you won't go far wrong with replacing the photocell.

monthehoops

shane0007 wrote: »

If you do not feel comfortable, I certainly do not take offence that you did not go at the electrics of the boiler. Always best practice of safety first.
IMHO, you won't go far wrong with replacing the photocell.

Thanks Shane, your input was excellent. I've seen the guy service the boiler before so kind of knew my way around it and had trouble with the photocell before so suspected this. I just don't like going near anything to do with electricity because I'm clueless there and that's how accidents happen.

310

bet u its control box

jimf

id stick with photocell until proven otherwise then coil and then control box

Wearb

310 wrote: »

bet u its control box

Is that just a guess, or have we missed something in our diagnosis.
I don't mean that as a criticism, but I am always trying to improve my own diagnosis.

Wearb

jimf wrote: »

id stick with photocell until proven otherwise then coil and then control box

I would stick with the cheaper options also, unless the brass joiner has spotted something that we haven't.

jimf

Wearb wrote: »

Is that just a guess, or have we missed something in our diagnosis.
I don't mean that as a criticism, but I am always trying to improve my own diagnosis.

but I am always trying to improve my own diagnosis.[/QUOTE]

that makes 2 off us

monthehoops

Well it was the photocell in the end. Replacement part arrived today. Cut the power to everywhere and replaced it. Thanks to everyone who helped.

shane0007

monthehoops wrote: »

Well it was the photocell in the end. Replacement part arrived today. Cut the power to everywhere and replaced it. Thanks to everyone who helped.

Thanks for letting us know. Glad it was an easy fix.

monthehoops

So you know. This is what was happening:

Boiler was continuously trying to fire. It wouldn't go to lockout. If I pressed reset then once my finger was taken off the reset button it would immediately continue as though I hadn't pressed reset at all.

Removed the photocell. Boiler tried to fire, failed and then went to lockout.

Once I added the new photocell, had to let some air out of the system and it fired then almost immediately.

The old photocell is slightly brown so am guessing it "blew"? That's a guess by the way, not asking anyone to tell me what happened