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Boiler not firing up [Firebird]

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  • 19-03-2013 12:58pm
    #1
    monthehoops
    Registered Users Posts: 312 ✭✭


    Hi folks,

    I have the attached Firebird boiler. At the moment it isn't firing up. I've already discounted a few things:

    1 - I have plenty of oil
    2 - The "eye" is spotless. I've taken it out the other day and it is completely clean. Previously I had issues with this as it got dirty but since a new service I've not had these problems.


    Two things I have noticed:

    1 - There is a kind of rattling noise coming from the circulating pump (highlighted in yellow).
    2 - When I press the red reset button at the front of the boiler and let it go again, prevously the boiler would turn off for about 10 seconds and I'd press the reset button again and it would fire up. Now however, once I let the red reset button go the boiler does not shut down but rather continues to try to fire as previous.

    So I reckon it's the circulating pump but can't be sure. I know very little about the system. How can I be sure it's this? Also, is this easily replaced myself and how much do they cost?

    Pic attached, thanks in advance.

    P.S. I searched for other topics but couldn't find anything to do with the circulating pump.


«13

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    #2
    shane0007
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,677 ✭✭✭shane0007


    monthehoops wrote: »
    Hi folks,

    I have the attached Firebird boiler. At the moment it isn't firing up. I've already discounted a few things:

    1 - I have plenty of oil
    2 - The "eye" is spotless. I've taken it out the other day and it is completely clean. Previously I had issues with this as it got dirty but since a new service I've not had these problems.


    Two things I have noticed:

    1 - There is a kind of rattling noise coming from the circulating pump (highlighted in yellow).
    2 - When I press the red reset button at the front of the boiler and let it go again, prevously the boiler would turn off for about 10 seconds and I'd press the reset button again and it would fire up. Now however, once I let the red reset button go the boiler does not shut down but rather continues to try to fire as previous.

    So I reckon it's the circulating pump but can't be sure. I know very little about the system. How can I be sure it's this? Also, is this easily replaced myself and how much do they cost?

    Pic attached, thanks in advance.

    P.S. I searched for other topics but couldn't find anything to do with the circulating pump.
    Disconnect the cable from the photocell going into the control box. Press reset & if it goes to lock out, then it is a faulty photocell. If not, report back.


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    #3
    Dtp79
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,097 ✭✭✭Dtp79


    monthehoops wrote: »
    Hi folks,

    I have the attached Firebird boiler. At the moment it isn't firing up. I've already discounted a few things:

    1 - I have plenty of oil
    2 - The "eye" is spotless. I've taken it out the other day and it is completely clean. Previously I had issues with this as it got dirty but since a new service I've not had these problems.


    Two things I have noticed:

    1 - There is a kind of rattling noise coming from the circulating pump (highlighted in yellow).
    2 - When I press the red reset button at the front of the boiler and let it go again, prevously the boiler would turn off for about 10 seconds and I'd press the reset button again and it would fire up. Now however, once I let the red reset button go the boiler does not shut down but rather continues to try to fire as previous.

    So I reckon it's the circulating pump but can't be sure. I know very little about the system. How can I be sure it's this? Also, is this easily replaced myself and how much do they cost?

    Pic attached, thanks in advance.

    P.S. I searched for other topics but couldn't find anything to do with the circulating pump.
    Is you're boiler firing and continuing to run or just going through the motions then lockout after 10 seconds?


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    #4
    monthehoops
    Registered Users Posts: 312 ✭✭monthehoops


    shane0007 wrote: »
    Disconnect the cable from the photocell going into the control box. Press reset & if it goes to lock out, then it is a faulty photocell. If not, report back.

    Ok so remove the black lead (photocell), press reset and see if it fires up?
    Dtp79 wrote: »
    Is you're boiler firing and continuing to run or just going through the motions then lockout after 10 seconds?

    It's trying to fire, failing and continuing to run. When this has happened before it's switched itself off after a few tries (is this what you mean by lockout?). Basically it doesn't cut out at any point, just continues to attempt to fire.


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    #5
    Dtp79
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,097 ✭✭✭Dtp79


    monthehoops wrote: »

    Ok so remove the black lead (photocell), press reset and see if it fires up?



    It's trying to fire, failing and continuing to run. When this has happened before it's switched itself off after a few tries (is this what you mean by lockout?). Basically it doesn't cut out at any point, just continues to attempt to fire.
    Have you tried what shane0007 said


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    #6
    monthehoops
    Registered Users Posts: 312 ✭✭monthehoops


    Dtp79 wrote: »
    Have you tried what shane0007 said

    No, i will when I get back to it tonight. Thanks lads.


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    #7
    .jacksparrow.
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,428 ✭✭✭.jacksparrow.


    shane0007 wrote: »
    Disconnect the cable from the photocell going into the control box. Press reset & if it goes to lock out, then it is a faulty photocell. If not, report back.

    Can you explain how this works Shane please?never tried it before.


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    #8
    Wearb
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators Posts: 6,239 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wearb


    This is the connection that Shane was writing about. (highlighted in red) There are one or two screws on top of the control box to open to get to this connection. There is mains power in there, so if you are not comfortable with that then leave it alone and get someone qualified to do it.

    Please follow site and charter rules. "Resistance is futile"



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    #9
    monthehoops
    Registered Users Posts: 312 ✭✭monthehoops


    Ok update. I pulled out the photocell itself and hit reset. After the reset it fired up for a split second (with the photocell out) but then powered down (locked out?)

    The photocell is clean but perhaps a little browned about the edges, can't be certain.

    I haven't gone near the control box, mind, but am guessing the photocell is the issue. Are they expensive? Can I replace or do I need someone to replace it?


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    #10
    Billy Bunting
    Registered Users Posts: 2,842 ✭✭✭Billy Bunting


    monthehoops wrote: »
    I haven't gone near the control box, mind, but am guessing the photocell is the issue.

    With respect, people here are trying to help, they do not wish to guess the problem so following the instructions and answering the questions are the only way you can be helped.


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    #11
    monthehoops
    Registered Users Posts: 312 ✭✭monthehoops


    Billy Bunting wrote: »
    With respect, people here are trying to help, they do not wish to guess the problem so following the instructions and answering the questions are the only way you can be helped.

    I haven't gone near the control box because "if you are not comfortable with that then leave it alone"

    I didn't put in or out on your day, friend. If I change the photocell it will be at my own expense. I'm not asking anyone to provide me with a definitive answer on what's wrong, nor am I looking to hold anyone accountable should something go awry. Thanks for your concern.


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    #12
    Wearb
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators Posts: 6,239 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wearb


    monthehoops wrote: »
    Ok update. I pulled out the photocell itself and hit reset. After the reset it fired up for a split second (with the photocell out) but then powered down (locked out?)

    The photocell is clean but perhaps a little browned about the edges, can't be certain.

    I haven't gone near the control box, mind, but am guessing the photocell is the issue. Are they expensive? Can I replace or do I need someone to replace it?

    Is it (the burner) doing something different with the photocell pulled out of the burner body than it was doing with it in there?

    They are about 20 euro. A clean cell is not an indication of its working condition. Your guess could be right, but it is still just a guess and I am still unsure of exactly what is happening with your burner.

    Please follow site and charter rules. "Resistance is futile"



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    #13
    jimf
    Registered Users Posts: 3,953 ✭✭✭jimf


    you have to follow the instructions shane advised in post 2 this means you have to open the control box and remove the photocell from the control box when you have this done advise back and let us know the outcome a lot of the problems with oil burners are solved by the process of elimination at the moment 4 things spring to mind that could be causing the symptoms photocell coil control box and motor voltage to control box


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    #14
    monthehoops
    Registered Users Posts: 312 ✭✭monthehoops


    Wearb wrote: »
    Is it (the burner) doing something different with the photocell pulled out of the burner body than it was doing with it in there?

    They are about 20 euro. A clean cell is not an indication of its working condition. Your guess could be right, but it is still just a guess and I am still unsure of exactly what is happening with your burner.

    Yeah with the photocell in, and running without my interference, then the boiler attempts to fire over and over but never cuts out. If I press reset it does nothing.

    With the photocell out, the boiler fires up but then cuts out as you'd expect. The reset button works in this scenario as expected.

    Thanks for the help.


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    #15
    monthehoops
    Registered Users Posts: 312 ✭✭monthehoops


    jimf wrote: »
    you have to follow the instructions shane advised in post 2 this means you have to open the control box and remove the photocell from the control box when you have this done advise back and let us know the outcome a lot of the problems with oil burners are solved by the process of elimination at the moment 4 things spring to mind that could be causing the symptoms photocell coil control box and motor voltage to control box

    Thanks I'll have a look and get back later.


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    #16
    .jacksparrow.
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,428 ✭✭✭.jacksparrow.


    If he disconnects the photocell is it not always gonna go into lockout?or am I missing something.


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    #17
    shane0007
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,677 ✭✭✭shane0007


    Sorry, just in the door. Nightmare day.
    I understood the boiler was running and running without going to lock out. Then you say it is going to lock out. Which is it?
    If it attempting to fire and then eventually going to lock out and going to lock out when you pull the photocell out of the burner, then there are 2 possible reasons:
    1. A faulty photocell is not reading the lux being offered to it.
    2. Air/fuel ratio out so much that it does not like the lux reading it is receiving. An over-aired burner can often do this.

    Probable cause: faulty photocell


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    #18
    Wearb
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators Posts: 6,239 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wearb


    monthehoops wrote: »
    Yeah with the photocell in, and running without my interference, then the boiler attempts to fire over and over but never cuts out. If I press reset it does nothing.

    Thanks for the help.

    There is a difference between continuous running and trying to fire over and over; Is "trying to fire over and over" exactly what it is doing?


    If you stick with us we might be able to pin it down exactly. Otherwise, if you purchase a photocell, try and get the shop to agree to take it back if that isn't the problem. Make sure not to get them mixed up.

    Please follow site and charter rules. "Resistance is futile"



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    #19
    shane0007
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,677 ✭✭✭shane0007


    .jacksparrow. wrote: »

    Can you explain how this works Shane please?never tried it before.
    If the burner is running and running and never goes to lock out or never tries to fire, there are 4 possible causes:
    1. Faulty photocell
    2. Faulty coil
    3. Faulty motor
    4. Faulty control box

    Test each in this sequence also.
    To test:
    1. Remove the electrical connection of the photocell from the CB. If it goes to lock out, you have remove the problem causing te symptom, i.e. the photocell so the CB can proceed to lock out.
    2. If the problem persists with the photocell disconnected, then test the resistance of the coil. If not within MI, replace coil.
    3. If coil is correct, test the white wire from the motor to ensure it is delivering 50V to the CB. If not, replace motor. (This is an extremely rare fault)
    4. Replace CB.


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    #20
    jimf
    Registered Users Posts: 3,953 ✭✭✭jimf


    just as a matter of interest have you adjusted any settings on the burner yourself poster i too thought the burner was running constantly with no attempt to fire


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    #21
    Billy Bunting
    Registered Users Posts: 2,842 ✭✭✭Billy Bunting


    shane0007 wrote: »
    2. Air/fuel ratio out so much that it does not like the lux reading it is receiving. An over-aired burner can often do this.

    I'd go for 2, but its not something you can play with without specialist toys.


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    #22
    .jacksparrow.
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,428 ✭✭✭.jacksparrow.


    shane0007 wrote: »
    If the burner is running and running and never goes to lock out or never tries to fire, there are 4 possible causes:
    1. Faulty photocell
    2. Faulty coil
    3. Faulty motor
    4. Faulty control box

    Test each in this sequence also.
    To test:
    1. Remove the electrical connection of the photocell from the CB. If it goes to lock out, you have remove the problem causing te symptom, i.e. the photocell so the CB can proceed to lock out.
    2. If the problem persists with the photocell disconnected, then test the resistance of the coil. If not within MI, replace coil.
    3. If coil is correct, test the white wire from the motor to ensure it is delivering 50V to the CB. If not, replace motor. (This is an extremely rare fault)
    4. Replace CB.
    I see,its just if you disconnect the photocell the burner will always go to lockout as it can't see a flame,ah I'm probably picking it up wrong!


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    #23
    jimf
    Registered Users Posts: 3,953 ✭✭✭jimf


    Billy Bunting wrote: »
    I'd go for 2, but its not something you can play with without specialist toys.

    very expensive little toys billy namely flugas analyser


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    #24
    Billy Bunting
    Registered Users Posts: 2,842 ✭✭✭Billy Bunting


    jimf wrote: »
    very expensive little toys billy namely flugas analyser


    Bet my toys are bigger than yours. :P


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    #25
    .jacksparrow.
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,428 ✭✭✭.jacksparrow.


    I get it now Shane,but I think it might be confusing to someone who wouldn't know about oil burners,if they disconnect it it could go straight to lockout when there is nothing wrong with the cell,its just doing its job,but it is a handy tip ill remember for future reference.


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    #26
    jimf
    Registered Users Posts: 3,953 ✭✭✭jimf


    Billy Bunting wrote: »
    Bet my toys are bigger than yours. :P

    now now big boys and our toys


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    #27
    monthehoops
    Registered Users Posts: 312 ✭✭monthehoops


    shane0007 wrote: »
    Sorry, just in the door. Nightmare day.
    I understood the boiler was running and running without going to lock out. Then you say it is going to lock out. Which is it?
    If it attempting to fire and then eventually going to lock out and going to lock out when you pull the photocell out of the burner, then there are 2 possible reasons:
    1. A faulty photocell is not reading the lux being offered to it.
    2. Air/fuel ratio out so much that it does not like the lux reading it is receiving. An over-aired burner can often do this.

    Probable cause: faulty photocell

    The boiler runs and runs (attempting to fire over and over) without going to lockout. If I press reset it just runs again immediately and never goes to lock out.

    If I pull out the photocell and press reset then the boiler actually fires for a second or two before going to lock out. I don't think I can explain it any clearer, sorry. It doesn't lock out with photocell in, it does lock out with the photocell out.
    Wearb wrote: »
    There is a difference between continuous running and trying to fire over and over; Is "trying to fire over and over" exactly what it is doing?


    If you stick with us we might be able to pin it down exactly. Otherwise, if you purchase a photocell, try and get the shop to agree to take it back if that isn't the problem. Make sure not to get them mixed up.

    Cheers. I could get one in any B&Q?


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    #28
    jimf
    Registered Users Posts: 3,953 ✭✭✭jimf


    shane0007 wrote: »
    If the burner is running and running and never goes to lock out or never tries to fire, there are 4 possible causes:
    1. Faulty photocell
    2. Faulty coil
    3. Faulty motor
    4. Faulty control box

    Test each in this sequence also.
    To test:
    1. Remove the electrical connection of the photocell from the CB. If it goes to lock out, you have remove the problem causing te symptom, i.e. the photocell so the CB can proceed to lock out.
    2. If the problem persists with the photocell disconnected, then test the resistance of the coil. If not within MI, replace coil.
    3. If coil is correct, test the white wire from the motor to ensure it is delivering 50V to the CB. If not, replace motor. (This is an extremely rare fault)
    4. Replace CB.

    shane could you elaborate a little on item 3 please my understanding is the control box takes its control voltage ie 53v from a built in transformer in the motor if this transformer were to go faulty does this then mean that the voltage now going back to control box is 220/240v or is it zero voltage if 220/240 surely this would fry the control box


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    #29
    agusta
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,590 ✭✭✭agusta


    monthehoops wrote: »
    The boiler runs and runs (attempting to fire over and over) without going to lockout. If I press reset it just runs again immediately and never goes to lock out.

    If I pull out the photocell and press reset then the boiler actually fires for a second or two before going to lock out. I don't think I can explain it any clearer, sorry. It doesn't lock out with photocell in, it does lock out with the photocell out.



    Cheers. I could get one in any B&Q?
    Hi,You wont get one in B&Q,You will have to go to plumber merchant.Yes it seems like the photocell is gone.The burner should make no attempt to fire when the photocell is out!,Reason because the photocell see light instead of darkness so its getting incorrect lux reading.If you turn off power and remove photocell completely from control box,its just a push in connector.Then start up burner once more and if it goes to lock out its 110 percent the photocell.Shane said this in post 2


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    #30
    Billy Bunting
    Registered Users Posts: 2,842 ✭✭✭Billy Bunting


    agusta wrote: »
    If you turn off power and remove photocell completely from control box,its just a push in connector.Then start up burner once more and if it goes to lock out its 110 percent the photocell.Shane said this in post 2

    He's not comfortable doing that, he'll pull the other end out but the philips screw is a little worrying. :D

    He need the man, the Oftec man!!


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    #31
    shane0007
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,677 ✭✭✭shane0007


    .jacksparrow. wrote: »
    I see,its just if you disconnect the photocell the burner will always go to lockout as it can't see a flame,ah I'm probably picking it up wrong!

    No, if say the coil was causing the continuous running and the photocell was removed, it would not go to lock out. By disconnecting the photocell and then it goes to lock out, you are 100% proving it was a faulty photocell.


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