Hoping to get a legal opinion on something

NickMondo

I won a bet with an online firm, they paid me out I withdrew the money. Got a recepit for the withdrawal and then a few hours later they said they had made an error my bet was over when I backed it and they cancelled my withdrawal and offered me this explanation. Just wondering weather anyone thinks i've an right to pursue getting paid or if it's hopeful at best

i Jeffrey,
Due to a technical problem, the (Boxing Match on Jessie Vargas V Wale Omotoso various markets) were still active and displayed on our site after the event had begun. In accordance with our rules, we are obliged to void your bets placed on this event.

Following the cancellation of your bets we have now cancelled your most recent withdrawal for €3018.18 and adjusted your account to the correct balance. Below is our rule regarding late bets:

Our rules state:

'Bets are accepted up to the off-time of the event or a pre-determined time whichever the earlier. ***** ***** reserves the right to void any bet inadvertently accepted after the betting has closed or where the event was resolved or at a stage where the customer could have any indication of the outcome.'
We apologize for any inconvenience this may have caused.

For a complete list of our betting rules please consult the 'Help' button on the Homepage.

If you have any further queries please click here to avail of our Live Help or send us a Tweet

Kind regards,

Daniel

Just their rules don't state they can cancel a withdrawal

Again i'm hoping not to be banned i tried to word this as politically correct as possible and edited out the firms name

NickMondo

They even have this up

Note: Withdrawals to Debit Cards can take between 2-3 working days to be processed, they can take up to 5 on occasion. This delay is while your bank processes the transaction. The funds leave your account immediately.

But they were somehow able to cancel mine?

coylemj

Betting involves chance and as such, no legally enforceable contract exists regardless of the circumstances of the bet.

NickMondo

Thats not what i'm asking, what i'm asking is after me withdrawing my money can they legally cancel it hours later. Even though their site states the funds leave the account immediately

coylemj

When they say that the money 'leaves your account', what they mean is that you can't access it to place new bets but it obviously hadn't yet been sent to your bank account so they were able to stop it going any further.

They wouldn't be able to claw back the money if it had been lodged into your bank account.

NickMondo

Look at how they have it worded though, they say the delay is due to the banks processing it. So if the funds leave immediately on their behalf they shouldn't be able to touch them, they didn't do this instantly i'd withdrawn the money been give a recepit and then they were able to cancel it hours later

coylemj

The thread title says you're asking for a 'legal opinion', my opinion is that you are wasting your time pursuing this.

If it's an online betting operation, it's probably based in the Isle of Man, the Channel Islands, Bermuda or some similar offshore place and if you wanted to legally pursue it, you would need to brief lawyers in that territory which would require a large amount of cash upfront and it would be money down the drain.

Forget about it.

Shield

You already know you won't get legal advice on specifics here, but let me set something up so you know where you would stand if any of the below happened to you:

In general terms, for example you had lodged €10k with your bank, and they have no record of it due to a computer error, but you have a valid receipt, the teller remembers the transaction, it's on CCTV, and the manager remembers it well as he brought you in for coffee and scones on the morning in question because it's not often people would lodge such a large cash sum in their little one-horse-town... in that case, the bank would have to rectify the situation and give you back your €10k when you wanted to withdraw it.

Many people do not realise the opposite is also true. If a bank mistakenly lodged €10k into your account, and you withdraw it before they realise the error, then you would be liable for that €10k. It's even the same at an ATM. If you want to withdraw €10, and the machine gave you a €20 in error, you are liable for the extra €10 that was given to you in error. Quid pro quo if you wanted to withdraw €20 and it only gave you €10, but debited your account by €20.

The TL;DR version of the above is: If a mistake has been made, it has to be rectified, even if that spoils the party.

P_1

NickMondo wrote: »

,
Due to a technical problem, the (Boxing Match on Jessie Vargas V Wale Omotoso various markets) were still active and displayed on our site after the event had begun. In accordance with our rules, we are obliged to void your bets placed on this event.

That's your problem, you made the bet when the outcome of the fight was known.

Commonly known as a 'palp' in betting terms. I'm afraid you don't really have a leg to stand on.

Also gambling debts aren't legally enforceable in Ireland.

NickMondo

There's two things sticking out, they haven't linked me any evidence to say the bet was late it's just their word. I was very drunk when I placed it, and the other....my main question is. They say the once the money leaves my account its the bank proccessing it which is why it's not instantly in my bank account, but after them saying i'd successfully withdrawn my money and given me my receipt do they have the legal power to cancel that transaction even though it says it's an immediate one on the website, now i'd get that if they paid me they'd have the right to come after me for the money. But how can they reverse the transaction thats supposedly already gone through on the spot and giving me such a small amount of detail? they had hours to correct this and I they haven't responded to any of my emails since.

Peregrinus

As others have pointed out, a contract of wager is unlawful in Ireland (and many other countries) meaning, not that it is a crime, but that it will not be recognised by the courts and cannot be enforced. Therefore you should only place bets with somebody you trust to honour the bet.

If a bet isn't honoured your only recourse is to complain to the regulator of wagering and gaming (in any) in the country where your bookmaker operates. This may result in problems for the bookmaker, up to and including loss of licence (assuming he has a licence). This doesn't in itself result in your bet being paid, but it does give bookies a strong interest in keeping customers happy, and therefore honouring the bets they have made.

So, do they have the legal right to cancel the transaction? In effect, yes; they can welch on a bet and return your stake for any reason at all or for no reason, and you have no legal recourse, since the bet was never legally enforceable to begin with. But it's unlikely that they would welch on a bet without good reason, since that damages their reputation and good will, and reputation is everything in the bookmaking world. Plus, if they are based in a regulated jurisdiction and are licensed, it could jeopardise their licence.

Indricotherium

I wonder which company ***** ***** could possibly be.

Lol.

BRAIN FEEDs

the bookie can talk about Rules all they like........... but its the legality of the issue thats the only thing a court would look at......... imho.
interesting thread.

Kristopherus

OP, At what time did you place the bet. Was it before or after the fight started or was the fight over?

NickMondo

My issue isn't so much with them welching on the bet, my issue is that after them granting my withdrawal and giving me a receipt. Do they not have to go through any channels legally to get the money back from me because it's stated on their website that the funds leave immediately and any delay is due to the banks proccessing I've tried to cancel a withdrawal before and they said it was out of their hands.

They had a fight listed to go off at 3.30 a.m it was a saturday night and i was on my way home only I backed it a few mins before the off, I had the even recorded and watched it from the start i've no idea if the fight had started but I was on twitter shortyl afterwards waiting for the F1 to start and it looked in line with all the times posted there for the result

NickMondo

Simply put for them to take the money i'd withdrawn do they not have to go down a legal route to get that back? since they told me i'd succesfully withdrawn gave me a receipt and the funds had left the account

coylemj

NickMondo wrote: »

Simply put for them to take the money i'd withdrawn do they not have to go down a legal route to get that back? since they told me i'd succesfully withdrawn gave me a receipt and the funds had left the account

There's no 'legal route' required, the money had been taken out of your account but hadn't yet been transferred to your bank and they were able to claw it back when they realised the mistake.

It's like as if they posted it in a letter but the letter was still in the 'out' tray so they were able to pull it before it was collected by the postman.

If they had left it too late and you got the money in your bank account then I suspect they would have thrown in the towel on the basis that it was a mistake on their part to accept the bet but as long as they could pull the money back, they were morally entitled to do so. Note I said 'morally' entitled, there are no legal issues here since a bet has no standing in law.

NickMondo

But they say they immediately transfer it once funds have been withdrawn, so for this to be true is a lie on their behalf

XxMCRxBabyxX

NickMondo wrote: »

But they say they immediately transfer it once funds have been withdrawn, so for this to be true is a lie on their behalf

I'm no banking expert but surely they can just issue a request with a bank to cancel the transaction before it has cleared?

P_1

NickMondo wrote: »

But they say they immediately transfer it once funds have been withdrawn, so for this to be true is a lie on their behalf

Thats why they don't immediately transfer.

What time did you place the bet at? If you check your account history you can find that out.

If its before the fight started you might have a case.

coylemj

NickMondo wrote: »

But they say they immediately transfer it once funds have been withdrawn, so for this to be true is a lie on their behalf

So what? There's nothing you can do about it. Get off the moral high ground, you haven't a leg to stand on.

bigneacy

NickMondo wrote: »

But they say they immediately transfer it once funds have been withdrawn, so for this to be true is a lie on their behalf

It leaves your account immediately- I.e. As soon as you request that money is no longer in your account. It will be authorised by an actual human another 1 or 2 times over the next 4-5 hours before it leaves the bookmakers accounts and becomes tangible money and goes beyond their control. The reality is, once it leaves their control there's little they can or are willing to do to reclaim it so there's plenty of checks in place.

In essence, it does leave your account in milliseconds. It leaves the bookies account within hours. Then it's up to your bank from there on in.

They've no case to answer for here.

VW 1

There was a mass case of this over a year ago, it involved a football match which was finished and left on the online gambling website of the bookie in question. A boardsie picked it up, and posted here. From memory there must have been at least 30-40 posters who put money on the outcome already knowing it, and the bookie cancelled at least some withdrawals when the mistake was realised. Again from memory the totals must have been 100k. Search the gambling forum for the thread, I can't search as on the phone at the minute.