Is my manager right??

Efaol89

Can anyone help me? I am in full time employment for a retail company and am on a permanent contract. Back in January we asked our head office how many days holidays we all had left to take. I had 14. I took 12 of these in January so still have 2 to take before 30th April. I asked my manager today could I take one day next week and she said yes but then later changed her mind and said I didn't have the hours built up. She then proceeded to "check" this and confirmed no I didn't have the hours built up. I have no idea what she means because when I was going on holidays in January I had the option of taking all the 14 days but she advised me to keep a few so I did. How could I have had them built up to take then and not any more?
Any advice appreciated

naughtysmurf

Normally you build up your holidays entitlement at a rate of 1.5 / 1.6 days per month so technically at the end of Feb you would only be entitled to take three days paid holidays,
A lot of companies don't actually enforce this though but some do

wmpdd3

If your holiday year ends in April then you could have that many hours, I had 16 days left on the last day of the holiday year. It is up to your manager when they give you the holidays though.

Efaol89

Okay so would that mean I wouldn't be entitled to take them until April?

Efaol89

wmpd33: I thought you had to take them before the end of the year?
Yes it ends April 30th

dearg lady

so your holiday year runs May-Apr? If you're permanant it shouldn't be relevant if you've worked up the hols or not, you should have an annual entitlement. How many days annual leave does your contarct give you, and how many have you taken?

monkeypants

The days are built up on a pro-rata basis throughout the holiday year, but most places will let you take the year's entitlement whenever you like. After all, if you leave, they can easily take a couple of days out of your last paycheque.

Mrs OBumble

I think you really need to tell your manager what you've told us and see what she says.

dearg lady

monkeypants wrote: »

The days are built up on a pro-rata basis throughout the holiday year, but most places will let you take the year's entitlement whenever you like. After all, if you leave, they can easily take a couple of days out of your last paycheque.

Yes, sorry, this is what i meant, I didn't expalin it well at all!

Hoboo

As a fulltime employee you are entitled to take your full allowance at any stage, taking into account both personal needs and business needs. If you have booked a holiday and it has been agreed, it may only be changed at your discretion, regardless of business requirements, however may be refused when first requested due to business requirements.

If you leave before the end of the 12 month period, any holidays over your entitlement are deducted from your last months pay.

In the meantime, ask them for a copy of your hours which they must record (for the past 5 years), ask them to explain it and get it in writing, and email will do............and check your contract. They will have a copy if you dont. And remember, just because its in a contract, it doesnt make it legal, it must comply with employment legislation.

The Working Time Act sets everything out very clearly.

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1997/en/act/pub/0020/index.html

tatli_lokma

Hoboo wrote: »

As a fulltime employee you are entitled to take your full allowance at any stage, taking into account both personal needs and business needs. If you have booked a holiday and it has been agreed, it may only be changed at your discretion, regardless of business requirements, however may be refused when first requested due to business requirements.

I don't think this is entirely correct.
A full time employee is entitled to 4 weeks AL per year. There is no legal obligation, AFAIK where an employer has to allow the full allowance to be taken in one go. My understanding is that for an employee who has worked for at least 8 months, the entitlement is to an unbroken period of 2 weeks' annual leave. So the maximum an employer is obliged to give in one period is 2 weeks. It is at their discretion if they allow more than that. This would be particularly relevant in retail environments where many employees only work one week in arrears of payment. It would not be reasonable to expect an employer to give 4 weeks leave when less than 3 weeks has been accrued, as there would be no way for them to recover the payment in the last salary.

I am also not aware of the cancelling of AL as being legally at the discretion of the employee. I have heard of it being upheld that an employer can cancel leave, but would be expected to compensate the employee for any costs incurred. When and how you take your leave is at the discretion of your employer, provided they have given you at least one months notice before the leave is to be taken. Provided they take into consideration your rest and recuperation and family responsibilities then they can decide when your leave will be taken.

In the OP's case I think it is more likely a case that the manager forgot about the extra 2 days still available. I also think that a quick conversation to this effect will recify the situation. It could of course also be that the manager was mistaken when she said there were 14 days available, and in fact there were only 12. I would recommend OP ask for a record of their leave taken in this current AL year just to clarify.

naughtysmurf

dearg lady wrote: »

Yes, sorry, this is what i meant, I didn't expalin it well at all!

Me too

Hoboo

Apologies, I was trying to keep it short without specifics. 4 weeks is statutory, employer must give unbroken TWO weeks together, I meant entitled to use all holidays, but not in a 4 week block. No obligation there as Ted stated. How the second 2 weeks is used is discretionary. Any company Ive worked with allow the 4 weeks after a set number of years, depending on their role.

In retail you may need to check collective agreements which overrule some areas of the WTA.


In terms of canceling leave, it is at the discretion of the employee to accept any changes, just as it is at the discretion of the employer in the first instance. Its a catch 22 really. The employer can cancel leave, but only if it doesnt interfere with family and personal obligations. So if you dont want to cancel you tell them its not suitable. Nothing they can do. End up having a disciplinary meeting, employee leaves, next thing you know youre sitting in a constructive dismissal tribunal, with an employee telling how you cancelled their leave to a family function or holiday.

As the other poster said, ask for the documents, write down what was said in every conversation, what time, where etc. Any meetings bring a colleague, pref union rep.

It sounds like an admin error, if she did 'check'.

Efaol89

She didn't forget about the extra two days she agreed with me that i still have these to take. I spoke to her again today reinforcing that i would like to take 1 day next and 1 the week after and that any day suits. She said no because i am building 1.5days per month and because we are not yet into april i havent build that yet but that i can take them in april.
I told her that in december when i took 12 days she had said i could take all 14 but recommended to me to keep a few in case i needed them. She agreed she said this but said she was letting me do that then but she's not now.
To be honest i can see that its a control thing cause i know that the head office don't strictly enforce that you have to build the holidays first i am sure of this but i don't want to step on her toes by saying it to head office. She said its because in case i leave how can get they get the money back and i reassured her i wouldn't be leaving so that's a ridiculous excuse.
I guess i am just going to have to wait till April.
Thanks for help

Osborne

Efaol89 wrote: »

I guess i am just going to have to wait till April.
Thanks for help

You're entitled to the 2 days. Why are you giving up so easily?

FIGHT!

Efaol89

i know but i will get them in a few weeks. I just don't want any more hassle because she gets so bitchy if you challenge her! thanks tho

Hoboo

"Building up' days is a complete non runner, she clearly has no idea of employment legislation and is trying to bully you.

But she sounds like the type of person who will make hell for you unless you really want to push things. But dont bow down to ignorant bullies. Ring HR in HQ and ask them directly, and ask them under what section of either your contract or The Working Time Act 2007 does it say you need to build up days ?

If youre paid monthly, then taking a day off wont affect them either way, they can deduct at source (only with you agreement).

OR, just tell her you'll take the days unpaid until the end of April.

collegeme

But if you do wait till aftet April does that mean you loose your two days? It sounds like it .As in you will be starting in May with only 20 days.

collegeme

Actually she is being a bit bullyish and nitpicking. I see what she is doing. She is saying you have not worked up march or aprils entitlement...honestly what a b**ch.