VRT shocker

Mhen66

Just got the vrt fee today from NCTS having brought in my 1994 Hymer B584 yesterday to Waterford, I bought the camper in the UK, originally German and its in good nick. 90,000 km. The ncts inspector only looked at chassis number and the odometer, nothing else, did not look at the body, chassis, condition, and to be honest I got the impression she knew nothing about campers. It was obvious when she asked did it have a cooker, sink and a toilet ! Any estimates of the vrt fee before I share it with all!

cipro 55

1300e:mad:

stapeler

€2100?

niloc1951

If it's like THIS ONE which you should sell for at the most €10k and possibly less, the VRT @13.5% should come in at around €1,350 at most.

Mhen66

I saw that hymer tonight and was thinking the same about the price. They are looking for 2793 !! They are valuing the camper at 21,000. Its a disgrace ! I'm gutted. I have my homework done and have owned many campers over the last 20 years but could not get the model I wanted here. I know the value of the camper here.:mad:

niloc1951

stapeler wrote: »

€2100?

That represents an OMSP of over €15,500. For that asking price there is a selection of '00 to '02 motorhomes on Done Deal, example HERE

And, that's before haggling a price which the vehicle will sell for.

You should even land THIS BOMB-PROOF BEAUTY for the fifteen and a half grand.

niloc1951

Mhen66 wrote: »

I saw that hymer tonight and was thinking the same about the price. They are looking for 2793 !! They are valuing the camper at 21,000. Its a disgrace ! I'm gutted. I have my homework done and have owned many campers over the last 20 years but could not get the model I wanted here. I know the value of the camper here.:mad:

No way can they stand over that figure. I know THIS 'VAN it's absolutely like new and has been kept in a garage when not in use.

Have a look at THIS SELECTION in and around an asking price of €21k which will invariable sell for less.

The whole VRT scheme is a pure scam, with no transparency or accountability and may even be illegal SEE HERE and SEE HERE.

paddyp

You can might be able to get 500 quid back by arguing their valuation with concrete examples and any work that needs doing with photos, quotes etc. but you have to pay up first. They seem to rely a lot on dealers valuations for omsp.

Heres one in Ireland from a couple of years ago *asking* 18500 you could ask him what it went for.
http://www.mycamper.ie/ads/288

niloc1951

paddyp wrote: »

You can might be able to get 500 quid back by arguing their valuation with concrete examples and any work that needs doing with photos, quotes etc. but you have to pay up first. They seem to rely a lot on dealers valuations for omsp.

Heres one in Ireland from a couple of years ago *asking* 18500 you could ask him what it went for.
http://www.mycamper.ie/ads/288

The dealers valuation is one of the issues before the courts.
Firstly, dealers have a financial interest in boosting valuations as it boosts the cost of importing and protects their margins.

Secondly, there is the question of the legality and constitutionality of a tax levied on a citizen being calculated based on a notional figure provided by a company or person with a vested interest in the outcome.

The Minister for Finance and The Revenue Commissioners are required to be totally independent of outside influence when setting taxes, in the same way as the judiciary are required to be independent of outside influence when dispensing justice.

As an aside, The Revenue Commissioners were able to construct what appears to be a fair system (irrespective of whether you agree with the tax in the first instance) for the Property Tax, it is designed to reflect the true value of the property as agreed between the taxpayer and The Revenue, not what some local builder or auctioneer says.
Pity they didn't apply their grey matter to the VRT.

Mhen66

Its crazy to think that I have to pay a crazy price , which I know to be outrageous, before I can appeal and then rely on the mercy of the revenue who obviously have no idea of the market value of campers. A 19 year old camper worth 21,000, not a hope ! I honestly would not have bought the van if I thought this could happen.

niloc1951

Mhen66 wrote: »

Its crazy to think that I have to pay a crazy price , which I know to be outrageous, before I can appeal and then rely on the mercy of the revenue who obviously have no idea of the market value of campers. A 19 year old camper worth 21,000, not a hope ! I honestly would not have bought the van if I thought this could happen.

Quite right, I have posted before about the fact that as a tax VRT on campers in particular is unique among taxes in that the tax bill is raised after the transaction is irreversibly complete and no reliable mechanism exists to pre-determine the potential tax liability beforehand.

This leaves the taxpayer in the unique position of not being able to asses his/her tax liability resulting from a transaction until after the purchase is closed. This has to be illegal or unconstitutional.

How do you feel about involving you MEP, as our own government is not interested in resolving the issue maybe The EU might give them a shove in the right direction, you have a good concrete example for you MEP to work with.

Mhen66

I rang revenue in advance of my purchase and enquired about the potential vrt liable on this camper. As I was aware, a nice lady in revenue explained the procedure and told be to check out the market price of similar campers here and estimate the value on that basis which is what I did. I checked out the market here, internet research and viewed private sales and called to a dealer to view campers also. On that basis I decided to purchase the hymer in the UK as I estimated the market value here. I have printed off material off the net of the asking price of hymer campers prior to buying and tonight also. I am going to call back to the ncts and ask them to query the vrt before I am forced to pay before i appeal. I am very worried that my appeal will fall on deaf ears and I will have been duped into paying an unfair tax based on a ridiculous valuation. Open market selling price is what someone will pay for the camper and I know nobody would pay anything near 21000 for this van. I wonder could this process be judicially reviewed?

Irishgoatman

Sometime ago this question came up and I posted what I had done to get a reduction and a refund.
I sent in an appeal and attached examples of what I could have got here for the value they put on my camper and pointed out the differences. I did also include campers that were on sale here for the price I paid but also had extras that I didn't want/need.

I received a refund of approx, as far as I can remember, 18%. When I mentioned that on here other people came forward who had also received, or knew of others, who had reveived around the same % amount.

Not sure if this is a great deal of help but I just thought that any info. is always useful as ammunition.

Benbecul97

Mhen66 wrote: »

They are looking for 2793 !! They are valuing the camper at 21,000.

What is their rationale for arriving at that valuation?

I would ask them for a detailed explanation of this in writing before paying it as you have information of similiar campers to be worth alot less.

niloc1951

Mhen66 wrote: »

I rang revenue in advance of my purchase and enquired about the potential vrt liable on this camper. As I was aware, a nice lady in revenue explained the procedure and told be to check out the market price of similar campers here and estimate the value on that basis which is what I did. .............................................................

Why then did the Revenue not take their own advice and why have they not passes it on the the people in the NCT department who they have appointed to do their job.

In interesting question is, is the VRT due actually assessed by Revenue Commissioners or by a private commercial enterprise Applus+ a Spanish multinational company who operate and manage the National Car Testing Service in Ireland and is what legal authority and/or expertise have they to asses the tax liability of an Irish Resident.

We should not forget that there is a track record in this country of ours of government departments acting illegally, the most recent example Govt Seeks Legal Advice Over Illegality Of Mobility Allowance "a report from the Ombudsman that found the department of health has been illegally operating the scheme for the past 12 years."

galwaytt

Benbecul97 wrote: »

I would ask them for a detailed explanation of this in writing before paying it as you have information of similiar campers to be worth alot less.

You can ask - but they won't tell you. I went toe-toe with Ms Feehilly on this last year and she wrote and told me that Revenue were 'too busy' to deal with VRT queries from the public and would NOT get into it with anyone, and pointed at the DIY method of valuation.

Irishgoatman

Niloc mentions on here, and has raised the question before, as to whether the way of charging and calculating the VRT is legal or illegal under Irish or E.U. law.

So the question now is has any person sought legal advice?. If I were to be asked for that sum of money I would be on the 'phone to a solicitor straight away.

Always worth looking into.

porterboy

Hang on in there. http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/cwkfsnmhidsn/rss2/

Irishgoatman

porterboy wrote: »

Hang on in there. http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/cwkfsnmhidsn/rss2/[/QUOTE]

So all the time we've been talking about, it's been in the hands of the courts.

So no point in taking legal advice or going to your T.D. or M.E.P. as has been suggested!.

You learn something new every day.

porterboy

Still waiting and now February has passed. Wouldn't hold your breath as its about 18 yrs. The camper was new.

Mhen66

I was back onto revenue today and the ncts. Revenue won't talk to me about the valuation.' They say I have to pay the vrt and then I can appeal. I explained that in my opinion, recording the mileage and chassis number of a camper does not amount to valuation , same reply, pay up and then lodge an appeal.

niloc1951

Mhen66 wrote: »

I was back onto revenue today and the ncts. Revenue won't talk to me about the valuation.' They say I have to pay the vrt and then I can appeal. I explained that in my opinion, recording the mileage and chassis number of a camper does not amount to valuation , same reply, pay up and then lodge an appeal.

How to Complain to Revenue

If you are not in dire need to get the vehicle on the road asap you could try the above three step procedure.

niloc1951

This is The Revenue Customer Service Charter.

It includes such commitments as:

Revenue will administer the law fairly, reasonably and consistently and will seek to collect no more than the correct amount of tax or duty.

You can expect: to be given the necessary information and all reasonable assistance to enable you to clearly understand and meet your tax and customs obligations and to claim your entitlements and credits.

You should point out to the person you spoke to to-day his/her obligation to fulfill the conditions of the above charter.

It is also a good idea to inquire if the call is being recorder as it reminds the person at the other end that what you and they say can be referred to in the future, and if not record it yourself.

In any dealings with bureaucracy take loads of notes and record names, don't rely on memory.
Being able to accurately quote previous conversations and having names can give you the upper-hand in follow up contacts particularly if it shows inconsistencies in your treatment at different times.

paddyp

The court case linked to is going on for 17 years because its against the governments interest to resolve it. I wouldn't get the OPs hopes up about fighting the man and getting any kind of resolution.

Basically its pay up and gather as much evidence as you can to support an appeal, maybe a dealer would value it for you too.

If you were to spend money on a solicitor I think it would certainly be more cost effective to get them to write a letter accompanying your appeal than to fight the system.

Mhen66

I have started on the appeal. I have a good bit done and I am going to canvass people who have sold their campers recently and invite them by way of statement to present the real open market selling price of campers in 2013. Maybe camper owners should for the future through a club / forum, set up a database recording the actual sale price of campers. I sold my last camper earlier this year and will be including a statement on my appeal as to the sale price. I could understand that people may not want to disclose such information but I think if private sellers were to provide statements to revenue there is a prospect of challenging the ridiculous omsp being presented by revenue, (apparently from dealers) . Just an idea but it may help for the future for the private seller / buyer to challenge the current unfair vrt valuations.

niloc1951

The real question is where did the OMSP of roughly twice that actual price with reference to similar vehicles currently on the market come from.

I have heard it said, but obviously cannot comment on its accuracy, that the OMSP is often given by a source outside the Revenue Commissioners 'sight unseen' just working off the description passed on by the NCT center.
If this is correct then 'somebody', who is not part of the Revenue Commissioners, out there is dictating what amount of tax the vehicle is subject to......................highly irregular in my book.

In the old days it was an actual customs officer who inspected the vehicle.

Irishgoatman

When I brought my car over to Ireland in 1996, although there was no duty to pay because I had owned it for 3 years, a guy from the revenue office in Castlebar actually came into the car park to check the vin and the mileage etc.
When I bought my camper in the U.K. and took it straight to the same office the day after I brought it over the guy I dealt with didn't even bother to ask where the camper was! If he'd turned and looked out of the window he could have seen it.

So when they valued it, no-one from the Revenue dept had actually seen it:eek:.

Brilliant way to operate.

GalwayChelle

Irish goat man - can i ask then if I have owned a car (M1) for more than 3 years in the UK before i want to bring it to ireland do i have to pay VRT on the car or am i exempt from this? I was a UK citizen for over 10+ before buying the car and was still a UK citizen for the 3 years of owning the car also?

Irishgoatman

Sorry, perhaps my post wasn't clear.

You must have owned the vehicle for a certain length of time, not sure what the minimum is, whilst living in the U.K.

the rambler

GalwayChelle wrote: »

Irish goat man - can i ask then if I have owned a car (M1) for more than 3 years in the UK before i want to bring it to ireland do i have to pay VRT on the car or am i exempt from this? I was a UK citizen for over 10+ before buying the car and was still a UK citizen for the 3 years of owning the car also?

as far as i know its 1 year then you will get away with the VRT,

you need a bucket load of paper work for revenue

literally they need every thing even down to pay slips :mad:

hope this helps,

Irishgoatman

the rambler wrote: »

as far as i know its 1 year then you will get away with the VRT,

you need a bucket load of paper work for revenue

literally they need every thing even down to pay slips :mad:

hope this helps,

Not quite that bad.
Just the U.K. car docs. with some proof as to how long you had owned it, in my case I had a service invoice, and a utility bill with a date that was in line with when you moved over and showing your name and U.K. address.

What I was earning had nothing to do with ownership of the car so I wouldn't have produced salary slips even if they were asked for. Which they wern't.

galwaytt

Irishgoatman wrote: »

Not quite that bad.

It IS that bad.

I had to produce bills, payslips and tax info to them here, when I brought my 'yoke' in years ago.

Irishgoatman

galwaytt wrote: »

It IS that bad.

I had to produce bills, payslips and tax info to them here, when I brought my 'yoke' in years ago.

You say "years ago". As I said in an earlier post, I brought my car over in 1996. That's the time I'm talking about. Things might be different now.
But why would they want to see pay slips? and why would any clear thinking person see the need for these and produce them?. As I said, I certainly would not.

plonker

Mhen66,how can they ask you a crazy price like that when these guys are advertising a 2003 and 2008 for way less-what the hell are they playing at,surely any vrt they get is extra revenue for the state instead of putting people of the idea???
2003
http://www.donedeal.ie/for-sale/campers/4731071

2008
http://www.donedeal.ie/for-sale/campers/4490662

Mhen66

I know plonker, it makes no sense what so ever. Appeal s ready for post now. Talk about hassle, can't get registration docs until I have doe because tax office won't tax it without doe cert. I'm not sure yet if I can get a doe test without a log book. I don't think I would buy abroad again !

Irishgoatman

Mhen66 wrote: »

I know plonker, it makes no sense what so ever. Appeal s ready for post now. Talk about hassle, can't get registration docs until I have doe because tax office won't tax it without doe cert. I'm not sure yet if I can get a doe test without a log book. I don't think I would buy abroad again !

I don't agree with it but it makes sense in so far as putting people off buying abroad and protecting vehicle sales here at home.

No, you can't get a test done without producing the reg. doc. That will come through to you regardless of any appeal that you make.

Best of luck with the appeal. Lots of evidence to support your appeal I hope? keep them bogged down with plenty of paperwork.

galwaytt

plonker wrote: »

...,surely any vrt they get is extra revenue for the state instead of putting people of the idea???

....you are too kind, really.

No, Revenue have adopted the Irish model of screwing the one guy that does offer to do business with them, rather than encouraging any kind of wider activity that would increase volume at a fair rate.

Mhen66

Just by way of updating everyone and thank you for all the replies. I'm a happy camper again. Just got word back from Revenue on my VRT appeal. Believe it or not, they went 100% with my appeal and agreed that the OMSP (Open Market Selling Price) was nine thousand less that they initially stated which I had argued in my comprehensive appeal. The refund will be approx 43% of the VRT charged.

Benbecul97

Fair play - glad it worked out from you.
It paid (43%!) to make a comprehensive appeal.

Irishgoatman

As I posted on the other thread, well done.

Also as I said, I think that everyone should appeal on principal. It will be the only way to get Customs and Excise to re-think how they arrive at their valuations.

odds_on

Irishgoatman wrote: »

I don't agree with it but it makes sense in so far as putting people off buying abroad and protecting vehicle sales here at home.

No, you can't get a test done without producing the reg. doc. That will come through to you regardless of any appeal that you make.

Best of luck with the appeal. Lots of evidence to support your appeal I hope? keep them bogged down with plenty of paperwork.

But all motorhomes are imported!!

Irishgoatman

Very true odds on, and isn't VRT incorporated in the price you pay for a new (imported) car?.

I think I'm right in saying that all vehicles brought into this country, whether privately or by dealers have VRT added. Ours is just a bit higher than some other countries, just compare UK new car prices with ours.:(

bugsntinas

been reading thru this and well done on taking them on and winning.if only they worked out a fair system in the first place they'd save themselves a lot of hassle,time and paperwork and including the fact that they have to give back money too.i've recently bought a transit motorhome and lukily it's a '79 so not so much hassle.

odds_on

bugsntinas wrote: »

been reading thru this and well done on taking them on and winning.if only they worked out a fair system in the first place they'd save themselves a lot of hassle,time and paperwork and including the fact that they have to give back money too.......

But it's keeping them in a well paid job with a good pension.

Irishgoatman

Come on everybody!. If we didn't pay the T.D's. and the top civil servants so much money, we wouldn't get the right people for the job, would we?.