Fat/lean and everything in between.

fatmammycat

Earlier this morning while out exercising my own dog with a friend and her large dog, a rotty-shepherd cross, we got into conversation with a fellow who had a some sort of mixed breed collie ( really pretty dog, but very over weight) and a cocker spaniel (not as heavy) waddling along behind him.
He stopped to watch our two eegits sprinting after each other and shoulder charging, which is their main form of play at the moment (my dog is 12 months, her dog 15m). Our dogs stopped to investigate the two new comers and were given the 'feck off' vibe, which they accepted and went back to chasing each other.
'Grand dogs,' says the fellow.
'Thanks.' said we. My dog came hurtling into me and nearly knocked me off my feet. I've been working on recall, now I need to work on brakes.
Yer man watched for a few moments, then...
'Not a pick on 'em'.
'No.'
'Probably could do with a bit of weight on them really.'
Gobsmacked, we looked at him, down to his rotund pets, and back to him.
I had a few things in mind to say, but decided against it. My friend also decided it wasn't worth it.
'What are you feedin' them.' He said, oblivious to our polite silence.
Sigh
I know I'm verging on evangelical when it comes to raw, so I try not to talk about it at all. My friend says,
'James Wellbeloved.'
I stayed schtum.
'Oh aye?' said he. 'I don't know that one. Must be new. What do you feed your lad?'
That was directed at me, and god help me I couldn't just ignore him.
'I don't feed him any commercial food at all, I raw feed him.'
'Raw?'
'You know, raw chicken, raw meat, raw eggs, raw fish, that kind of thing.'
'Pfft!' said he, rocking back on his heels, 'Sure no wonder he's thin, needs a bit off fibre. Wheetabix, that's the secret, wheetabix and a bit of warm milk. Put a bit of condition on them.'
Again we looked to his dogs, the cocker was staring off into the distance, the collie cross was lying down. It was clear they knew how long this conversation might go.
'Well thanks for the info' said my friend, 'enjoy your walk'

The thing is, and I was thinking about this when I saw the lovely but chubby lab that won in Crufts, a lot of people don't seem to realise that lean is not the same thing as thin. My dogs ribs are covered lightly- you can see the last one or two and he has a defined waist. But at almost 40 kilos he is far from thin. My friend's dog is a few kilos heavier, and again far from thin.
I think a lot of dogs that I meet out are actually way too heavy I think, solid little butterballs in some cases (my mother's dog was a case in point, an obese KCS, my mother genuinely couldn't see it). Do you think we, as a nation of dog owners, have forgotten what constitutes fit and lean?

((Wheetabix and milk. I'm trying to picture his face if I put that down in front of him.))

SillyMangoX

I do think that a lot of the irish public have forgotten what a lean dog looks like, case in point being the crufts lab, to me he was over weight, but when that it what people are seeing in labs day in day out it's easy to forget what they should weigh. I remember coming across a lab in work experience, a hunting dog so he was kept in tip top condition but some other student was fawning over how thin the dog was! I showed her the body condition score chart but she still insisted he was too thin.. I think with peoples own dogs they do become blind to it though. I don't know how many times I've told my uncle that the dog is a fatty bum bum but he insists she barely eats anything, only ever picks at her bowl of pedigree (:rolleyes:) what he forgets about is the sampling of every meal that he has!! Not that I am one to talk, Peach has been described by the vet at the cat show as 'being fond of her dinner' but it's so hard to keep weight off a lazy cat!!

tk123

I get that a lot with my guy - most people don't know he's a retriever because he's lean. Fair play to you - if somebody told me my dog needed weight on him and theirs was a fatty I'd have no problem telling them lol! :pac: The same with raw - I think people think you spend the day butchering animals to serve up to the dog on a silver platter :rolleyes:

TooManyDogs

I get told that my short coated dogs "could do with a meal" a lot too but I think they're in perfect condition. I've found on the raw diet that there isn't a single bit of flab but they've loads of muscle.

Mind you everyone comments on the weight my lab x has lost! When I look back at photos it's hard to believe how good a condition he is in now.

lorebringer

Some people need to keep their opinions to themselves! One of mine looks like a sheep when he has a full winter coat and pretty small when he is groomed - I have had people comment on how he needs a few big dinners when he is shaved and on how he needs to lose a few pounds when he has a full winter coat, and his weight is pretty constant (he is just plus or minus a lot of hair!).

Hooked

It's funny... I had the opposite problem last year. I met with Hugos (our Husky) dad before a show last year and the first words out of his owners mouth were, 'he could do with losing a bit of weight'! Now, at the time I was a bit shocked as I didn't feel he was 'fat' (two long walks daily). Looking back, what I considered 'strong' was in fact too much weight, I admit. He looked like a tank beside his dad.

The breed standard for an adult male Sibe max should be 27kg. Hugo was 31! Not fat to look at - but certainly not 'lean' - as the title says.

So, within about 6-8 weeks, we cut back little by little on his food and treats and I now make a habit of weighing him every 2 weeks at our local maxi zoo. He tips the scales at a fraction over 26kg each week and is so much the better for it...

Like in the OPs thread, my dad thinks he could do with a 'bit of weight on him' but I see the definition, waistline and energy he has now as a 'lean' dog and fully respect the comments made when he looked more Malamute than Husky!

fatmammycat

Heh, it seems people are just fairly pass remarkable.

TooManyDogs, I find that too with the raw diet that there isn't a pick of fat on his body, but plenty of muscle starting to really develop, his chest is starting to drop now too. I think he's going to be a very large (lean) dog indeed. I weigh him every two weeks and he's gaining steadily and has plenty of energy, coat looks great, teeth sparkly white. I think I will forgo the wheetabix and warm milk for a while.

Hooked- Hugo sounds lovely and fit as a fiddle to me.

greengold9999

I think a lot of Irish parents have the same "fat blindness" when it comes to their children - as a nation we're getting fatter and bringing our pets with us it seems and the perception of what is normal weight for all species has shifted quite a long way. My two are at appropriate healthy lean weights but if they could talk they would tell every stranger they met that I starved them - especially the lab, a tad obsessed with anything food related (mind you so am I so I guess pets do get like their owners!).

Magenta

fatmammycat wrote: »

Earlier this morning while out exercising my own dog with a friend and her large dog, a rotty-shepherd cross, we got into conversation with a fellow who had a some sort of mixed breed collie ( really pretty dog, but very over weight) and a cocker spaniel (not as heavy) waddling along behind him.
He stopped to watch our two eegits sprinting after each other and shoulder charging, which is their main form of play at the moment (my dog is 12 months, her dog 15m). Our dogs stopped to investigate the two new comers and were given the 'feck off' vibe, which they accepted and went back to chasing each other.
'Grand dogs,' says the fellow.
'Thanks.' said we. My dog came hurtling into me and nearly knocked me off my feet. I've been working on recall, now I need to work on brakes.
Yer man watched for a few moments, then...
'Not a pick on 'em'.
'No.'
'Probably could do with a bit of weight on them really.'
Gobsmacked, we looked at him, down to his rotund pets, and back to him.
I had a few things in mind to say, but decided against it. My friend also decided it wasn't worth it.
'What are you feedin' them.' He said, oblivious to our polite silence.
Sigh
I know I'm verging on evangelical when it comes to raw, so I try not to talk about it at all. My friend says,
'James Wellbeloved.'
I stayed schtum.
'Oh aye?' said he. 'I don't know that one. Must be new. What do you feed your lad?'
That was directed at me, and god help me I couldn't just ignore him.
'I don't feed him any commercial food at all, I raw feed him.'
'Raw?'
'You know, raw chicken, raw meat, raw eggs, raw fish, that kind of thing.'
'Pfft!' said he, rocking back on his heels, 'Sure no wonder he's thin, needs a bit off fibre. Wheetabix, that's the secret, wheetabix and a bit of warm milk. Put a bit of condition on them.'
Again we looked to his dogs, the cocker was staring off into the distance, the collie cross was lying down. It was clear they knew how long this conversation might go.
'Well thanks for the info' said my friend, 'enjoy your walk'

The thing is, and I was thinking about this when I saw the lovely but chubby lab that won in Crufts, a lot of people don't seem to realise that lean is not the same thing as thin. My dogs ribs are covered lightly- you can see the last one or two and he has a defined waist. But at almost 40 kilos he is far from thin. My friend's dog is a few kilos heavier, and again far from thin.
I think a lot of dogs that I meet out are actually way too heavy I think, solid little butterballs in some cases (my mother's dog was a case in point, an obese KCS, my mother genuinely couldn't see it). Do you think we, as a nation of dog owners, have forgotten what constitutes fit and lean?

((Wheetabix and milk. I'm trying to picture his face if I put that down in front of him.))

Maybe he thinks his dogs are just "curvy"... It's all the rage these days!!!

maggiepip

fatmammycat wrote: »

Earlier this morning while out exercising my own dog with a friend and her large dog, a rotty-shepherd cross, we got into conversation with a fellow who had a some sort of mixed breed collie ( really pretty dog, but very over weight) and a cocker spaniel (not as heavy) waddling along behind him.
He stopped to watch our two eegits sprinting after each other and shoulder charging, which is their main form of play at the moment (my dog is 12 months, her dog 15m). Our dogs stopped to investigate the two new comers and were given the 'feck off' vibe, which they accepted and went back to chasing each other.
'Grand dogs,' says the fellow.
'Thanks.' said we. My dog came hurtling into me and nearly knocked me off my feet. I've been working on recall, now I need to work on brakes.
Yer man watched for a few moments, then...
'Not a pick on 'em'.
'No.'
'Probably could do with a bit of weight on them really.'
Gobsmacked, we looked at him, down to his rotund pets, and back to him.
I had a few things in mind to say, but decided against it. My friend also decided it wasn't worth it.
'What are you feedin' them.' He said, oblivious to our polite silence.
Sigh
I know I'm verging on evangelical when it comes to raw, so I try not to talk about it at all. My friend says,
'James Wellbeloved.'
I stayed schtum.
'Oh aye?' said he. 'I don't know that one. Must be new. What do you feed your lad?'
That was directed at me, and god help me I couldn't just ignore him.
'I don't feed him any commercial food at all, I raw feed him.'
'Raw?'
'You know, raw chicken, raw meat, raw eggs, raw fish, that kind of thing.'
'Pfft!' said he, rocking back on his heels, 'Sure no wonder he's thin, needs a bit off fibre. Wheetabix, that's the secret, wheetabix and a bit of warm milk. Put a bit of condition on them.'
Again we looked to his dogs, the cocker was staring off into the distance, the collie cross was lying down. It was clear they knew how long this conversation might go.
'Well thanks for the info' said my friend, 'enjoy your walk'

The thing is, and I was thinking about this when I saw the lovely but chubby lab that won in Crufts, a lot of people don't seem to realise that lean is not the same thing as thin. My dogs ribs are covered lightly- you can see the last one or two and he has a defined waist. But at almost 40 kilos he is far from thin. My friend's dog is a few kilos heavier, and again far from thin.
I think a lot of dogs that I meet out are actually way too heavy I think, solid little butterballs in some cases (my mother's dog was a case in point, an obese KCS, my mother genuinely couldn't see it). Do you think we, as a nation of dog owners, have forgotten what constitutes fit and lean?

((Wheetabix and milk. I'm trying to picture his face if I put that down in front of him.))

:D:D Ahhhhhhh - your story just gave me a great laugh:P Im always battling to keep the weight off 2 of mine (the third never puts on a pick) While I think they're ok - they could probably be a bit slimmer - tis hard to say no sometimes:o

fatmammycat

With my mother's dog was table scrapsfor sure as cause of his obesity; the animal had to have a 'tithe' on every meal she had. Mind you that dog would have lived on buttery toast if he could.
I'd tell my mother she really shouldn't be feeding him half the food she did, and she would agree TOTALLY and carry on as before as soon as my back was turned.

bluecherry74

I get this a bit with one of my setters. He's very lean, even for a setter and has a light, flat coat so you can just about make out his ribs. His waist is quite skinny too. He's raw fed though and has plenty of muscle and at 1 and a half years old he's still filling out slowly. I've had a few comments from people, but he's ridiculously healthy and fit and I'm happy with his weight.

Funnily enough, his "sister" who is also a setter has the opposite problem - she only has to look at food and she puts on weight! The two of them weight about the same but skinny guy gets almost twice as much food as chubby girl. I'm hoping that will eventually change as he get's older.

I do agree with what others have said about the general public having forgotten what a lean, healthy dog should look like.

DogsFirst

Dogs are evolved to be lean, leaner than wolves, being a more scavenging type. AND you have a setter! With 40% of dogs obese from their high carb diets the public are accustomed to rounder dogs. Try telling them that and you're on to a loser. The guy has a dog and therefore understands every aspect of dogology, there's little you can tell people like that.

fatmammycat

Dogology, heh, I am going to steal that. Thank you.

DogsFirst

I have more

Insymarial. Pronounced In-Sim-Aerial. Usage: It doesn't matter, it means nothing, it's insymarial.

The word doesn't exist but my Dad used it all f his life so we all just assumed it was a word!

Seaneh

I don't live at home (I'm 28) but we have a gorgeous staffie, she's honestly the best girl in the world (shut up, my dog is the best) but she's fecking huge. Every time I go home I have to get on to the mumsy and sister who are there. They are using some stupid "diet" dog food and obvuoously not following the diet very well as they are also constantly giving her treats and throwing her food from their plates. She gets walked twice a day but she's never going to drop weight until they stop over feeding her and stop giving her ****e like markies and bonios and all that crap. I've tried to explain that stuff like a pigs ear would be a much better treat but they are both totally blind to it. "Ah sure she's happy and she's not that big"!.

DogsFirst

Those diet foods are pure gack. They put in more indigestible material (cellulose) into the food at the expense of protein (which is already at a minimum in the food) instead of taking out some of the cereal (which is causing all the problems). It's like a runway model filling up on tissue paper. Not ideal.

Best way to shed the pounds is to move her to mean meat for a month. Protein builds muscle. Protein isn't stored by the body, excess energy is expelled in the urine. Hence fat dogs shed weight in the form of and not lean muscle mass, which is where its as when you're dieting. Cut out the carbs. Fish is best for a month, not much pow in it and you don't have to go pulling the skin off the chicken.

Pigs ears are pure skin, and so are pure fat. They are a serious calorie hit to the dog, like a marsbar every day, cut them out if it's slimming you're after. Use lean meat as a treat, frozen carrots or fresh bones with the fat trimmed off.

tk123

Another clueless bunch? Some of the nurses in the vets who use a chart to decide if a dog is 'overweight'...
I always annoy them by pointing out that muscle weighs more than fat lol! The vet always says his weight is prefect anyways

maggiepip

@ Dogsfirst - everything you post about diet is just spot on - you give great information - although Im not brave enough to switch to raw - I have my dogs on a high protein quality, grain free, low temp cooked tinned food. With regards to those awful "diet foods" - they are just terrible - stuffed with carbs and low protien - High protein and no carbs is the way to get weight off.

Seaneh

I doubt I could ever convince them to go raw, it's what I'd give her. a scoop of "seafood mix" a day from a local fish mongers would be pretty cheap, or I could fully bone a chicken and chop that up for her or use cheaper cuts of beef or whatever, all very reasonable price wise but the mother and sister would never go for it. re:pigs ear, good to know. still, I'd imagine it's better than the boxes of pedigree chump crap? She doesn't get pigs ears btw, I was just thinking it would be better than the normal stuff she gets.

Does anyone know of a no carb high protein bagged or tinned food they would recommend? If so I could buy it for her and throw out the other ****e!

fatmammycat

Seaneh wrote: »

I doubt I could ever convince them to go raw, it's what I'd give her. a scoop of "seafood mix" a day from a local fish mongers would be pretty cheap, or I could fully bone a chicken and chop that up for her or use cheaper cuts of beef or whatever, all very reasonable price wise but the mother and sister would never go for it. re:pigs ear, good to know. still, I'd imagine it's better than the boxes of pedigree chump crap? She doesn't get pigs ears btw, I was just thinking it would be better than the normal stuff she gets.

Does anyone know of a no carb high protein bagged or tinned food they would recommend? If so I could buy it for her and throw out the other ****e!

You wouldn't even need to bone the chicken, just chop up as is ( I'll shut up now)

Seaneh

fatmammycat wrote: »

You wouldn't even need to bone the chicken, just chop up as is ( I'll shut up now)

are chicken bones digestible for dogs?

do tell me more! I'd happily just break down a ckicken as if I was making a stew and just throw it to her but I thought the bones would have been a bad idea?

A 2kg chicken would be a few days eating for her and would be cheap as chips!

toadfly

Raw chicken bones are great for dogs but never cook them as they will then splinter.

My staffie gets raw chicken bones everyday along with raw liver and cooked veg. She gets raw fish about 3times a week and occasionally sardines.

maggiepip

Seaneh wrote: »

I doubt I could ever convince them to go raw, it's what I'd give her. a scoop of "seafood mix" a day from a local fish mongers would be pretty cheap, or I could fully bone a chicken and chop that up for her or use cheaper cuts of beef or whatever, all very reasonable price wise but the mother and sister would never go for it. re:pigs ear, good to know. still, I'd imagine it's better than the boxes of pedigree chump crap? She doesn't get pigs ears btw, I was just thinking it would be better than the normal stuff she gets.

Does anyone know of a no carb high protein bagged or tinned food they would recommend? If so I could buy it for her and throw out the other ****e!

If you fail in the raw department (!) Rocco Classic from zooplus is what I feed - just meat and innards - nothing else - its actually cheaper from the zooplus uk site at the moment:
http://www.zooplus.co.uk/shop/dogs/wet_dog_food/rocco/rocco_classic/158902

fatmammycat

Seaneh wrote: »

are chicken bones digestible for dogs?

do tell me more! I'd happily just break down a ckicken as if I was making a stew and just throw it to her but I thought the bones would have been a bad idea?

A 2kg chicken would be a few days eating for her and would be cheap as chips!

Totally! They're soft and easy to digest. My guy demolishes them with gusto, keep his teeth clean too. Just don't ever cook them.
His all time favourite thing in the world in the spine and skeleton of a rabbit, after we've taken all the meat off it for game pie. He sits there drooling until I give it to him

tk123

fatmammycat wrote: »

Totally! They're soft and easy to digest. My guy demolishes them with gusto, keep his teeth clean too. Just don't ever cook them.
His all time favourite thing in the world in the spine and skeleton of a rabbit, after we've taken all the meat off it for game pie. He sits there drooling until I give it to him

I almost got rabbit a while ago but it's skeleton head/face put me off lol!

fatmammycat

tk123 wrote: »

I almost got rabbit a while ago but it's skeleton head/face put me off lol!

Heh, while I wouldn't be overly besotted with them myself, the dog found them to be very much to his liking

TooManyDogs

Some of the purists in America breed their own meat rabbits for their dogs so at dinner time they just go out, grab a rabbit, neck it and toss it to their dog :eek: I know that is pretty much the best way for them to get a fully complete meal but no way on earth I could manage it

fatmammycat

TooManyDogs wrote: »

Some of the purists in America breed their own meat rabbits for their dogs so at dinner time they just go out, grab a rabbit, neck it and toss it to their dog :eek: I know that is pretty much the best way for them to get a fully complete meal but no way on earth I could manage it

Oh, I wouldn't have the heart. I would name the bunny, teach it tricks and mourn its passing at a ripe old rabbity age if that was left to me.

TooManyDogs

fatmammycat wrote: »

Oh, I wouldn't have the heart. I would name the bunny, teach it tricks and mourn its passing at a ripe old rabbity age if that was left to me.

Me too. We got 2 sheep as lawn mowers and swore that we wouldn't get attached or treat them as pets :rolleyes: you can imagine how long that lasted!

borderlinemeath

tk123 wrote: »

I almost got rabbit a while ago but it's skeleton head/face put me off lol!

Yep, it's not a nice look. Was in a supermarket in France last year (large Carrefour hypermarket place) and they had all sorts at the meat counter. A full tray of skinned rabbits with eyes still in looking at you:eek:.

ISDW

I've seen in the UK that a few people feed rabbit that has been shot as pest control, I'd be a bit worried about the pellets, but I guess if you skin them, you'd just dig them out?

tk123

borderlinemeath wrote: »

Yep, it's not a nice look. Was in a supermarket in France last year (large Carrefour hypermarket place) and they had all sorts at the meat counter. A full tray of skinned rabbits with eyes still in looking at you:eek:.

If you're up in Dublin take a look in the window of FX Buckley's in Moore street and you'll see all sorts! They have 2 shops btw - the first one off Henry Street is more pre packaged stuff but the main one a few doors down usually has rabbits, oxtail etc

DogsFirst

It depends what the rabbit was shot with I suppose. A .22 would go straight through (your dog hopes).

Is it wrong to give m50 fox / badger?!