Fraher Field - Disgrace

Helpneeded86

I was at the National hurling league game in Dungarvan yesterday. I arrived fairly early and got a seat. It was a bad day and as it got closer to throw in the steps in between seats started filling up. Basically anyone with a seat now could not see the game. There was a few exceptional cases aswell near me (Grandfather and child, 2 special needs individuals) along with several older and younger individuals.

There was no steward on our section and i went to the nearest one who said "what do you want me to do about it". He said talk to him and pointed to a person in a orange jacket. I said to that individual you cant have people standing on the steps no one can see and its a H&S issue. He nicely told me to "Fcuk off".

I returned to my seat again and as more people got frustrated I went again this time to the front gate. I was then put in contact with the event co-ordinator who had a chat with me and took my name, address and number. I asked him what he was going to do?

"What can I do the weather went against us"

"We were left down by stewards"

"I cant go up and tell them move theyl F and blind us out of it"

"Here you take the jacket and get them to move"

At this point I went back and my GF was confronting an individual who was directly in her way he told her to "fcuk off back to your seat little girl"

I then had a small shape up with him but im not exactly one for violence. I then eventually got in contact with a Gardai who seemed interested but couldnt really interfere as its not his job as such.

At the start of the second half I spotted the safety officer and took up my issues with him. He denied it was his job even tho he wore a vest with safety officer. I decided to stand in front of the Vip section ( possibly the selectors seats im not 100% sure). I made the point that if i can be moved from there why cant someone move the others. All he done was walk away and I just moved as I didnt want to act the clown altogether as the lads were apologetic.

My final straw was to confront the front gate and ask for my money back. I was told by the man on the front gate to fcuk off or.. and I said or what he replied " I know what id like to do to you".


Ive calmed a bit since yesterday but im pretty tempted to contact HSA and Munster council. Anyone think I should just leave it go? I have pictures and so on....

blackbelt

Post your pics.We can't have this happening at GAA grounds.Proper stewarding and H&S is a minimum requirement for GAA fans to watch and enjoy the game safely.

Helpneeded86

blackbelt wrote: »

Post your pics.We can't have this happening at GAA grounds.Proper stewarding and H&S is a minimum requirement for GAA fans to watch and enjoy the game safely.

Il get the pictures up in the next hour they wont be the clearest but at least they are something.

68Murph68

Definitely get in touch with the authorities.

The behaviour of the individuals in question was completely unacceptable.

You will be doing everyone who ever goes to any match in the land a favour.

Kerrydude1981

Contact your county board as well,cant treat paying punters like that.

That kind of a carry on wouldn't be long putting you off going to matches

Helpneeded86

This is the view from my seat. The girl you can see is where the walkway is.



Steps on the entry/exit point.



More steps been blocked.




This is a picture of the most obnoxious steward although in fairness he did not use any profanities on me. Ive broken the link as I just realised I cant really be posting pictures of him.

Helpneeded86

People sitting all the way up the steps on a walkway.

Mountainlad

Have to say I've never experienced anything like that there before, but didn't travel to the match yesterday, pictures are pretty shocking. Shouldn't be let happen, probably something the stewards don't have to deal with very often on account of that felt they could get away with not dealing with.

Definitely have sympathy, because I'd be fierce frustrated if that happened to me. Who provides the stewards for the league, is it the County Board?

I'd definitely contact your club, the County Board (assuming it's the Cork County Board) and then the Waterford County Board if all else fails. Don't think the Munster Council would want to get involved.

Ando's Saggy Bottom

Kerrydude1981 wrote: »

Contact your county board as well,cant treat paying punters like that.

That kind of a carry on wouldn't be long putting you off going to matches

You'll be waiting a long time for the Wateford county board to give a satisfactory response tbh. Clowns one and all! The U-21 footballers aren't even meeting up to train before championship matches FFS.

68Murph68

Mountainlad wrote: »

I'd definitely contact your club, the County Board (assuming it's the Cork County Board) and then the Waterford County Board if all else fails. Don't think the Munster Council would want to get involved.

If it was Munster Championship the Munster Council would definitely be the people to talk to.

However as its a league game I think it might come under the auspices of Croke Park.

I'd be surprised if Croke Park don't have an interest given they cut Newbridge's capacity to 6000 over health&safety concerns.

I think maybe either Waterford County Council or the Dept of Environment would be interested on the health & safety grounds.

Mountainlad

68Murph68 wrote: »

If it was Munster Championship the Munster Council would definitely be the people to talk to.

However as its a league game I think it might come under the auspices of Croke Park.

I'd be surprised if Croke Park don't have an interest given they cut Newbridge's capacity to 6000 over health&safety concerns.

I think maybe either Waterford County Council or the Dept of Environment would be interested on the health & safety grounds.

Yeah well they might be alright, but I don't think it was a case of overcrowding as there was only 2,500 people there, it was just that nobody wanted to sit in the wet seats or below the covered part of the stand and at the same time weren't prepared to sit over in the corners because they wouldnt have the same view. It just looks like a case of stewards not being prepared to do their job.

blackbelt

Absolutely shocking. I think these images should be forwarded to the complaints department inCroke Park.Don't think your county board will do anything other than give you a token "we'll look into this" and then don't bother.There are too many old hags working in county boards who only want to turn up to work at 10am and go home at 4.30 without having to listen to complaints or lift a finger.

Kristopherus

Afaik, its Croke Park that have responsibility for running the National Leagues. So the OP should forward his photos to them, together with a strong letter of complaint. I'm sorry I cannot find any official listed in the GAA website, but no harm would be done if he addressed his envelope to Padraic O Dubhaigh, Ard Stiurthoir, Pairc an Crochaigh, Bale Atha Cliath 3.

Hammer Archer

That's pretty horrendous alright.
Can't understand the double standards the GAA seem to have with some stadiums. Pairc Tailteann's capacity was cut to just 10000 for a time a couple of years back because the grass banks behind the goals were deemed to be dangerous. These were (and still are) closed off to crowds during games. However, as far as I know, Fraher Field has grass banks on three sides of the pitch which are completely open to the public. And from looking online, the capacity of Fraher Field is 15000 (though I'm not sure how accurate that is).

Mountainlad

Hammer Archer wrote: »

That's pretty horrendous alright.
Can't understand the double standards the GAA seem to have with some stadiums. Pairc Tailteann's capacity was cut to just 10000 for a time a couple of years back because the grass banks behind the goals were deemed to be dangerous. These were (and still are) closed off to crowds during games. However, as far as I know, Fraher Field has grass banks on three sides of the pitch which are completely open to the public. And from looking online, the capacity of Fraher Field is 15000 (though I'm not sure how accurate that is).

Not very accurate, plus there was only 2500 at the ground on Sunday.

It is not so much an issue with the stadium itself, but rather with the stewards. I wasn't there admittedly, but I would guarantee the stand wasn't full.

Realt Dearg Sec

Get in touch with Croke Park, it's not a provincial council issue. The notion that it is just that "the weather went against us" is ridiculous. I've been in Nowlan Park when people who arrived late wanted to sit on steps near the middle of the stand and they are shunted along in short order, and rightly so. It would be extremely dangerous in an emergency. Quite clearly the stewards at Fraher are unwilling to be stewards. I don't know if your county board are any good on these issues (the state of their two county grounds tells its own story though), but Croke Park will definitely be interested. They are safety obsessed to a fault, so they shouldn't be long responding on this. Or, if you aren't getting the response you want, newspapers will never refuse ink, send it on to somebody in a local paper (and certainly inform Croke Park in any correspondence with them that, if they don't take your complaint seriously and act on it, that there will be journalists involved soon.)

tonc76

Mountainlad wrote: »

Not very accurate, plus there was only 2500 at the ground on Sunday.

It is not so much an issue with the stadium itself, but rather with the stewards. I wasn't there admittedly, but I would guarantee the stand wasn't full.

The upper part of the stand was full but no-one was at the front of the stand due to the weather. There were also loads of people standing in aisles as wellas the walkway at the back of the stand. I tried to get into the stand at every access but couldn't do so as there was a crowd blocking the accesses (including the goons in "safety officer" jackets). The grass banks behind the goals had pools of mud at each of the access points and I witnessed several people slipping/falling on entry. Walsh Park is also a shambles but at least there is a covering of stone on 2 of the 3 banks which make it easier to keep your footing.

jj mo

blackbelt wrote: »

Absolutely shocking. I think these images should be forwarded to the complaints department inCroke Park.Don't think your county board will do anything other than give you a token "we'll look into this" and then don't bother.There are too many old hags working in county boards who only want to turn up to work at 10am and go home at 4.30 without having to listen to complaints or lift a finger.

No it's not absolutely shocking:rolleyes: but I do tend to agree with the second part of your post.

rpurfield

tonc76 wrote: »

The upper part of the stand was full but no-one was at the front of the stand due to the weather. There were also loads of people standing in aisles as wellas the walkway at the back of the stand. I tried to get into the stand at every access but couldn't do so as there was a crowd blocking the accesses (including the goons in "safety officer" jackets). The grass banks behind the goals had pools of mud at each of the access points and I witnessed several people slipping/falling on entry. Walsh Park is also a shambles but at least there is a covering of stone on 2 of the 3 banks which make it easier to keep your footing.

the grass banks in pairc tailteann in navan are closed off all the time for health and safety reasons like youve mentioned above.

BRAIN FEEDs

jj mo wrote: »

No it's not absolutely shocking:rolleyes: but I do tend to agree with the second part of your post.

Agreed,shocking and Horrendous are a small bit OTT.

OP i can understand your annoyance and well done on the pictures.

3 years ago,i was in lower Hogan croke park,25/30 minutes into the game,in steps this steward to our row and man handled this woman and daughter out of their seats to let two late comers into their seats. their were hundreds of empty seats all round us,the attendance for the game was something like 45,000 so it was well under capacity.

I emailed croke park,giving a good description of the steward,what section he was working from(i didnt have his bib number)
my grievence was the way he handled the woman,the timing(just before half time) the fact everyone around our section had to stand up while this steward made sure this woman and daughter were separated from their friends. i didnt know the woman from adam but felt compelled to mail croke park,got a response back from them and they said they would look into it:cool: whether they did or not,i dont know but it definitely deserved reporting.

i still see the same steward working there at games.

dzilla

BRAIN FEEDs wrote: »

Agreed,shocking and Horrendous are a small bit OTT.

OP i can understand your annoyance and well done on the pictures.

3 years ago,i was in lower Hogan croke park,25/30 minutes into the game,in steps this steward to our row and man handled this woman and daughter out of their seats to let two late comers into their seats. their were hundreds of empty seats all round us,the attendance for the game was something like 45,000 so it was well under capacity.

I emailed croke park,giving a good description of the steward,what section he was working from(i didnt have his bib number)
my grievence was the way he handled the woman,the timing(just before half time) the fact everyone around our section had to stand up while this steward made sure this woman and daughter were separated from their friends. i didnt know the woman from adam but felt compelled to mail croke park,got a response back from them and they said they would look into it:cool: whether they did or not,i dont know but it definitely deserved reporting.

i still see the same steward working there at games.

I had a run in with a steward at the under21 munster fina @ dungarvanl in 2009 ... 4 turnstiles and only one open to general admission, i asked could dey open another and got threatened from him to shut up n put up

iDave

It annoys me that Navan and Newbridge have their capacities gutted while this lark goes on elsewhere. Not just Fraher but PUC is bit of a deathtrap from what I'm told by anyone who goes there.

Mountainlad

iDave wrote: »

It annoys me that Navan and Newbridge have their capacities gutted while this lark goes on elsewhere. Not just Fraher but PUC is bit of a deathtrap from what I'm told by anyone who goes there.

Páírc Uí Chaoimh is a shambles but it's closed for redevelopment now.

Again, I don't think the stadium's capacity was an issue at all here. There was plenty of seating around in front, and probably at the sides as well but nobody would sit there and the stewards didn't do their job. Fraher Field's official capacity is not 15000 under helath and safety regulations. It is less than Navan I'm sure, dunno anything about Newbridge.

Tom Joad

iDave wrote: »

It annoys me that Navan and Newbridge have their capacities gutted while this lark goes on elsewhere. Not just Fraher but PUC is bit of a deathtrap from what I'm told by anyone who goes there.

Very contradictory post there - why would it annoy you that their capacities are gutted - its for very good reason both grounds had their capacities limited for very good reason.

iDave

Tom Joad wrote: »

Very contradictory post there - why would it annoy you that their capacities are gutted - its for very good reason both grounds had their capacities limited for very good reason.

How is it contradictory. The real contradiction is Navan cant have grass banks but Dungarvan can. Why is it unsafe in one ground but not the other?

Mountainlad

iDave wrote: »

How is it contradictory. The real contradiction is Navan cant have grass banks but Dungarvan can. Why is it unsafe in one ground but not the other?

Fraher Field is never used for big championship games and it's capacity is rarely tested (and was not tested on Sunday). You'd get a big crowd for a game in Navan in the qualifiers I'd imagine? And if you don't, then I don't understand the complaint because if you can get a ticket to the match what's the issue?

Tom Joad

iDave wrote: »

How is it contradictory. The real contradiction is Navan cant have grass banks but Dungarvan can. Why is it unsafe in one ground but not the other?

It's contradictory becuase you call Fraher field and PUC deathtraps while bemoaning the fact that Navan and Newbridge have their attendance cut for being deathtraps.

Great attitude - if they can get away with it why can't we - never mind the dangers involved!!

Hammer Archer

Tom Joad wrote: »

Very contradictory post there - why would it annoy you that their capacities are gutted - its for very good reason both grounds had their capacities limited for very good reason.

I really cannot see the very good reason to be honest. I would be the first to agree that Páirc Tailteann is a kip, but that would be mainly due to the stand. Whatever about Newbridge (only been there 2 or 3 times), Navan comfortably held 20000 a few years back against Kildare. It wasn't especially crowded and it certainly wasn't dangerous, even on the grass banks. Indeed, more would have been there if the capacity wasn't limited to 20000. After this game, Croke Park then told us that the grass banks were too dangerous and ordered them to be closed off to the public, cutting the capacity once again. These are closed off all year round, even during County championship, O'Byrne Cup and League games where the crowd size would be similar to that at Fraher Field at the weekend.

So on one hand, grass banks are said to be dangerous (despite there never being an injury as long as I've been going to Navan). Yet on the other hand Fraher Field is allowed have grass banks on three sides. That's what I'm struggling to get my head around. Given Croke Park's obvious desire to build one stadium for Meath and Kildare's home games in the future, one could be forgiven for thinking that H&S wasn't the only thing on the GAA's mind when they cut the capacities of these grounds.

Tom Joad

1. I highlighted the contradictionary nature of the post because it comes across as "if they can get away with it, why can't we"!!

In my opinion the grass banks in the Fraher Field are dangerous and should be closed - simple as. I've been in Navan a good few times and also Newbridge - I do remember playing a qualifier against Louth in Tailteann a good few years ago on a really wet night - the banks were dangerous that night, people slipping all over the place. Given some of the horrific stadium disasters we have had in other spots, I think the GAA are right to err on the side of caution when health and safety is at play - but agree that it should equally apply to all grounds but shouldn't wait until accidents happen - the GAA have done risk assessments on this stuff.

Their used to be grass banks in Breffni and they were lethal back then - there is no place for them in modern football grounds.

As for the GAAs other motivations - we could fill a few threads on that one

Mountainlad

Tom Joad wrote: »

1. I highlighted the contradictionary nature of the post because it comes across as "if they can get away with it, why can't we"!!

In my opinion the grass banks in the Fraher Field are dangerous and should be closed - simple as. I've been in Navan a good few times and also Newbridge - I do remember playing a qualifier against Louth in Tailteann a good few years ago on a really wet night - the banks were dangerous that night, people slipping all over the place. Given some of the horrific stadium disasters we have had in other spots, I think the GAA are right to err on the side of caution when health and safety is at play - but agree that it should equally apply to all grounds but shouldn't wait until accidents happen - the GAA have done risk assessments on this stuff.

Their used to be grass banks in Breffni and they were lethal back then - there is no place for them in modern football grounds.

As for the GAAs other motivations - we could fill a few threads on that one

Your from Cavan, yes? How many times have you actually been to Fraher Field?

Anyone calling the place a death trap is wrong. I regularly go to the banks. The only danger I could see would be for children running around falling, but then I've seen children running up and down the steps in the stand in several stadiums and the potential for serious injury there is even greater.

Tom Joad

Mountainlad wrote: »

Your from Cavan, yes? How many times have you actually been to Fraher Field?

Anyone calling the place a death trap is wrong. I regularly go to the banks. The only danger I could see would be for children running around falling, but then I've seen children running up and down the steps in the stand in several stadiums and the potential for serious injury there is even greater.

Yes I'm from Cavan - I've been to Fraher field twice, actually played on it too!!

I didn't call it a deathtrap - that was another poster. But I do believe that the banks are dangerous at the Fraher field as they are at other grounds - they have no place in a modern county ground. I'm not sure why they are still open if Tailteann had to close the grass banks.

Mountainlad

Tom Joad wrote: »

Yes I'm from Cavan - I've been to Fraher field twice, actually played on it too!!

I didn't call it a deathtrap - that was another poster. But I do believe that the banks are dangerous at the Fraher field as they are at other grounds - they have no place in a modern county ground. I'm not sure why they are still open if Tailteann had to close the grass banks.

We can't afford to close them. I can see the difference between a stadium that has 20,000 with banks and one that holds about 7,500, maybe a little more but one that has it's capacity tested once in a blue moon. At the same time I can understand the double standard the one would have to close it's banks and another not have to.

I do feel though, that people are trying to use what has been described as happening Sunday as some sort of basis for an argument against banks at stadiums when this has nothing to do really with the issue detailed in the OP. It was quite clearly an issue with the stewards. I've never seen an incident in Fraher Field, and I've been there a lot. I would have to say that if there was to be an issue I can't see it being the fault of the banks but rather the personnel involved.

I would say that the stadium is sub-par by modern standards, no question about it but I really don't see the danger. Each individual case on its own merits, I've never been to Navan or Newbridge so I dunno what they're like.

Tom Joad

We can't afford to close them. I can see the difference between a stadium that has 20,000 with banks and one that holds about 7,500, maybe a little more but one that has it's capacity tested once in a blue moon. At the same time I can understand the double standard the one would have to close it's banks and another not have to.

I will have to bow to your knowledge on that - I'm not sure if Fraher Field is the designated county ground. I am against grassbanks as I view them as dangerous and it should be the same for all - but am against the argument that Tailteann should be allowed use them becasue the Fraher Field does.. That's why I commented on this - its a ludicrous argument.

I do feel though, that people are trying to use what has been described as happening Sunday as some sort of basis for an argument against banks at stadiums when this has nothing to do really with the issue detailed in the OP. It was quite clearly an issue with the stewards. I've never seen an incident in Fraher Field, and I've been there a lot. I would have to say that if there was to be an issue I can't see it being the fault of the banks but rather the personnel involved.

Agreed - the original issue highlighted was with the stand and the lack of stewarding.

I would say that the stadium is sub-par by modern standards, no question about it but I really don't see the danger. Each individual case on its own merits, I've never been to Navan or Newbridge so I dunno what they're like.

I'm sure that some sort of risk assessment was used to decide this - although I can see what Hammer Archer is getting at re another agenda at play. Given some of the horrific tragedies involved in stadia (thankfully none in this country) erring on the side of caution is the way to go. But I do see the difference between a grass bank being used for a league game and being open for a big championship full house game like tailteann or newbridge would get if they were allowed at full capacity.

Mountainlad

Tom Joad wrote: »

I will have to bow to your knowledge on that - I'm not sure if Fraher Field is the designated county ground. I am against grassbanks as I view them as dangerous and it should be the same for all - but am against the argument that Tailteann should be allowed use them becasue the Fraher Field does.. That's why I commented on this - its a ludicrous argument.



Agreed - the original issue highlighted was with the stand and the lack of stewarding.



I'm sure that some sort of risk assessment was used to decide this - although I can see what Hammer Archer is getting at re another agenda at play. Given some of the horrific tragedies involved in stadia (thankfully none in this country) erring on the side of caution is the way to go. But I do see the difference between a grass bank being used for a league game and being open for a big championship full house game like tailteann or newbridge would get if they were allowed at full capacity.

What would your view be on County Championship games? Do you think they should be allowed use the banks for those?

Agreed re the bold part, bit like saying that every stadium in Ireland should have a big screen just because Croker has one.

Maybe the grass banks are potentially dangerous, I wouldn't argue strongloy against that because I know of another ground in Waterford that has a bank that is shaded by trees and even in fine weather the terrain isn't great.

With regard to Fraher Field it's purely a case that I've never seen an accident there, or noticed something that looked potentially dangerous about the place. The only thing I could think of is the children hurting themselves but as I said I reckon that'd be worse if they fell in the stand.

Tom Joad

Mountainlad wrote: »

What would your view be on County Championship games? Do you think they should be allowed use the banks for those?

I would say it depends on the attendance -to my mind grassbanks are generally steep and lethal when wet. There has to be a critical mass of when a few people slipping on them could do a lot of damage - it would be like skittles and you can see the potential for injuries and compo claims for the gaa - all it takes is one incident and they will be closed in every ground in the country.

68Murph68

Tom Joad wrote: »

I would say it depends on the attendance -to my mind grassbanks are generally steep and lethal when wet. There has to be a critical mass of when a few people slipping on them could do a lot of damage - it would be like skittles and you can see the potential for injuries and compo claims for the gaa - all it takes is one incident and they will be closed in every ground in the country.

Its all as a result of the compo culture.

10-15 years ago if a kid or adult slipped on grass banks and hurt themselves, the county board would probably get away without having to pay anything.

Nowadays with the legal professions compo culture, a simple slip could easily result in a massive insurance payout and a further increase in terms of public liability insurances.

BRAIN FEEDs

IMO,it has nothing to do with compo culture. 10/15 years ago,health and safety officers were seen only in offices and fairly scarce on site so to speak. thankfully this is changing,slowly i know.
the idea of using razor wire to keep back the animals from invading a pitch is draconian,yet up until a few years ago was seen in a lot of Gaa grounds.

Stewarding has improved, ironic i know lol that this thread is about poor stewarding,but there are some good ones,its just the bad ones need to be reported and weeded out,and i would encourage OP and anyone else to report your experiences.

Are grass banks in sports stadiums illegal? im may be wrong,but i think there is some law somewhere outlawing them??

Tom Joad

68Murph68 wrote: »

Its all as a result of the compo culture.

10-15 years ago if a kid or adult slipped on grass banks and hurt themselves, the county board would probably get away without having to pay anything.

Nowadays with the legal professions compo culture, a simple slip could easily result in a massive insurance payout and a further increase in terms of public liability insurances.

Thats a big part of it but after hillsborough and other tragedies in other sports the health and safety aspect has improved immesaurably too.

Tom Joad

BRAIN FEEDs wrote: »

Are grass banks in sports stadiums illegal? im may be wrong,but i think there is some law somewhere outlawing them??

I'm not sure but i'd say they are all covered under health and safety regulations. Individual sports body such as FIFA IRFU etc may have banned them..