Insulation

john t

Just got a kitchen extension built and find it cold, their is insulating boards on walls and ceeling but just took out downlighter and found no rockwool type insulation in between ceiling and roof about 7inches thick. Is this normal not too pack ceiling with rockwool?? Also builder poured new concrete floor onto grey plastic sheet again no insulation in floor, is this normal practice??

just do it

john t wrote: »

Just got a kitchen extension built and find it cold, their is insulating boards on walls and ceeling but just took out downlighter and found no rockwool type insulation in between ceiling and roof about 7inches thick. Is this normal not too pack ceiling with rockwool?? Also builder poured new concrete floor onto grey plastic sheet again no insulation in floor, is this normal practice??

Did you have a spec for the builder to build to? Sounds like you've a jacket, a woolly hat with holes and bare feet.

john t

No xact spec we asked for extension with insulation and were told it would be. Got another builder today too have a look and he asked about floor and i dont remember any insulation going in, he looked in ceiling also. We were not home when ceiling went up so didnt know it not insulated. Im just asking are these normal as original builder is coming back at our request tomorrow..

sinnerboy

This is precisely normal when one takes such a casual approach to building. You asked for "an extension with insulation" and you got exactly that.Did you get a building regulation complaint extension ? - it does not sound like it.

john t

Whats that? And wat can we do?

sydthebeat

john t wrote: »

No xact spec we asked for extension with insulation and were told it would be. Got another builder today too have a look and he asked about floor and i dont remember any insulation going in, he looked in ceiling also. We were not home when ceiling went up so didnt know it not insulated. Im just asking are these normal as original builder is coming back at our request tomorrow..

the above is EXACTLY the reason we consistently here refer to engaging a professional to compile construction drawings and specifications and to inspect the work while its on going.

The OP has probably spent in the region of €35,000 on a build which
1. they dont know what materials have gone into it
2. does not comply to regulation
3. is cold


wouldnt €1000 have been well spent on a professional to make sure these mistakes didnt happen? Myself, i couldnt possibly fathom spending such large chunks of money and having no idea what im getting for it.

sorry to the OP for highlighting this, but many times on here we have posters who take the "sure it will be grand" and "why spend money we dont HAVE to" approach.

john t

Is their anything we can do??mayb we were a bit vague in our spec but as we know builder we didnt think he would do any wrong..

sydthebeat

firstly, building regulation standard is the minimum standard allowed to be built at in ireland today.

so either the builder knows, and fully carries out all works in accordance with regs, or you engage someone to both tell the builder and check that this standard is achieved.

if you have seen the builder pour concrete onto a "grey plastic" type material and you are not installing underfloor heating then you can be fairly sure there was no insulation installed in the floor... but at this stage you have to take his word, or pay for a core drill to check.
On the roof, i assume he just installed insulated plaster all around?? ie both walls and ceiling? if so EXACTLY what thickness of insulation is on the boards... in mm's... it should be easy to check by looking at off-cuts.

he may say that there is insulation in the ceiling but its just pulled away from the down lighters, so are you sure that theres absolutely none in the void over the ceiling?

john t

Hi ye we took out 6 downlighters and no insulaton in ceiling, i saw no insulation going in floor and we saw him pour. Thickness of insultion plaster board is 50mm.

sydthebeat

john t wrote: »

Hi ye we took out 6 downlighters and no insulaton in ceiling, i saw no insulation going in floor and we saw him pour. Thickness of insultion plaster board is 50mm.

right, is that 50mm total thickness, or 50mm for insulation alone?

doesnt really matter because its not enough for either walls or ceiling.

sounds like youve been sold a pup

topcatcbr

sydthebeat wrote: »

right, is that 50mm total thickness, or 50mm for insulation alone?

doesnt really matter because its not enough for either walls or ceiling.

sounds like youve been sold a pup

He is not the first or won't be the last to employ a friend to do some work and have it turn out wrong.

The best advise I can offer is that he now employs someone who knows what their looking at (architect/tech/engineer/building surveyor) to asses the situation as it it now and how best to improve things.

It will also depend on how much you wish to spend.

Your building professional may be able to convince your builder to remedy at reduced additional cost.

MicktheMan

john t wrote: »

Just got a kitchen extension built and find it cold, their is insulating boards on walls and ceeling but just took out downlighter and found no rockwool type insulation in between ceiling and roof about 7inches thick. Is this normal not too pack ceiling with rockwool?? Also builder poured new concrete floor onto grey plastic sheet again no insulation in floor, is this normal practice??

Whatever about the (lack of) insulation, you probably have an airtightness issue too.
As others have said, you really need now to have an experienced professional fighting your corner for you. Otherwise, it will be one mistake after another.

john t

sydthebeat wrote: »

right, is that 50mm total thickness, or 50mm for insulation alone?

doesnt really matter because its not enough for either walls or ceiling.

sounds like youve been sold a pup

50mm insulation on plaster board. wat is minimum requirement? can we go down a legal route, solicitor ?

topcatcbr

john t wrote: »

can we go down a legal route, solicitor ?

Not allowed discuss this.
If it was me. I would get building advise and try convince builder to rectify.

You had only a verbal agreement and asfaik you as employer are responsible for employing competent people. If you have insufficient knowledge that means employing someone who has. This means building professional. This is not a legal opinion.

I am not saying do not get advise on the contrary get advise from the right people.

john t

topcatcbr wrote: »

Not allowed discuss this.
If it was me. I would get building advise and try convince builder to rectify.

You had only a verbal agreement and asfaik you as employer are responsible for employing competent people. If you have insufficient knowledge that means employing someone who has. This means building professional. This is not a legal opinion.

I am not saying do not get advise on the contrary get advise from the right people.

Thanks for that. we thought he was professional competent builder.he is registered insured etcetc. issues start from here on due too how we know him. but i will take ur advice thanl you. will have good talk too him tomorrow..

martinn123

Guy's there are figures being thrown around here, like snuff at a wake, with little or no evidence,

e,g,

The OP has probably spent in the region of €35,000 on a build


wouldnt €1000 have been well spent on a professional to make sure these mistakes didnt happen

Where did those figures come from?? The size of the extention has not been disclosed...yet

I am not disputing this does not sound good, but I think the ''Builder'' is attending tomorrow, can we wait till then before continuing to condemn all those who ''Build'' as cowboys.

I agree advice is required if this is a disaster, and should have been sought at the start, but you sound as if there are no Genuine Builders out there.

Who Builds your Projects??

john t

martinn123 wrote: »

Guy's there are figures being thrown around here, like snuff at a wake, with little or no evidence,

e,g,


Where did those figures come from?? The size of the extention has not been disclosed...yet

I am not disputing this does not sound good, but I think the ''Builder'' is attending tomorrow, can we wait till then before continuing to condemn all those who ''Build'' as cowboys.

I agree advice is required if this is a disaster, and should have been sought at the start, but you sound as if there are no Genuine Builders out there.

Who Builds your Projects??

little under 30K. hope he come tomorow, he hung up twice today on wife when ssked was rokwool in ceiling and again when asked about floor. never gave answer about rockwool but saif wsll was insulated. advice on thickness of insulating so i hsve regs too use tomorow and is gloor insulation required..

mfceiling

Did you have a set of plans drawn up OP with the building specs on it?

By that I mean, the foundation details, blockwork specified, roof timbers and slates used, insulation for floor, walls and ceilings.

Difficult to argue with the builder if he was working from the back of a cigarette packet.

martinn123

john t wrote: »

little under 30K. hope he come tomorow, he hung up twice today on wife when ssked was rokwool in ceiling and again when asked about floor. never gave answer about rockwool but saif wsll was insulated. advice on thickness of insulating so i hsve regs too use tomorow and is gloor insulation required..

Does not sound good, if he's hanging up, when awkward questions asked.
How about the Financials, do not part with any further Funds, until you get an answer to the points raised.

You may need to have this Examined, before/ after the meeting

Good Luck

sydthebeat

martinn123 wrote: »

Guy's there are figures being thrown around here, like snuff at a wake, with little or no evidence,

e,g,


Where did those figures come from?? The size of the extention has not been disclosed...yet

i dont want to have to back quoting exactly what was posted, but please read what was said before you start taking unnecessary issue on this thread.

martinn123 wrote: »

I am not disputing this does not sound good, but I think the ''Builder'' is attending tomorrow, can we wait till then before continuing to condemn all those who ''Build'' as cowboys.

martinn123 wrote: »

........... you sound as if there are no Genuine Builders out there.

NOBODY on this thread has condemned all who build as "cowboys"

take this as a stern warning right now, THIS IS NOT A SOAPBOX.
Deal with the issue at hand if you like but do not drag this onto something else.

what topcatcbr said is a fair comment and at no point did he refer to "builder", so please drop whatever slight you may have taken from what has been posted so far.

The OP has come on here for some advice prior to meeting the builder to morrow and that is all that is being given.

To the OP, we cannot discuss legal issues here so if this thread goes down that route it wil be locked.

john t

martinn123 wrote: »

Does not sound good, if he's hanging up, when awkward questions asked.
How about the Financials, do not part with any further Funds, until you get an answer to the points raised.

You may need to have this Examined, before/ after the meeting

Good Luck

wat is wall insulation minimum mm? if 50mis not enough can we just tell him too increase at his expense. we requested extension built too industry standard and were told it would befully insulated and warm which it not.

martinn123

sydthebeat wrote: »

i dont want to have to back quoting exactly what was posted, but please read what was said before you start taking unnecessary issue on this thread.





NOBODY on this thread has condemned all who build as "cowboys"

take this as a stern warning right now, THIS IS NOT A SOAPBOX.
Deal with the issue at hand if you like but do not drag this onto something else.

what topcatcbr said is a fair comment and at no point did he refer to "builder", so please drop whatever slight you may have taken from what has been posted so far.

The OP has come on here for some advice prior to meeting the builder to morrow and that is all that is being given.
.

I don't have a Soapbox, and as you are posting not in Bold I will take that as an invitation to reply,
I have posted some advice, see post, @ 21.17 as an example,

I also stated

I agree advice is required if this is a disaster, and should have been sought at the start

that's a bit you omitted from your quotation.

Don't be worried about me taking slight, I am bigger than that, just want to see a just resoluion to the OP's problems

john t

No show today expected at 3.30 and he rang at 3.30 too say cant come but will come sunday 17th. No good we have kids who go too parade. Settled on thurs 21st.. when he quizzed on 50mm wall insulation he said he will explain how it works out too be 100mm ??? About ceiling he said he will put something in it....

sydthebeat

john t wrote: »

No show today expected at 3.30 and he rang at 3.30 too say cant come but will come sunday 17th. No good we have kids who go too parade. Settled on thurs 21st.. when he quizzed on 50mm wall insulation he said he will explain how it works out too be 100mm ??? About ceiling he said he will put something in it....

he says he can come on a sunday, and st patricks day at that???? what a chancer, of course he knew you would say youre not available.

It doesnt matter what material it is on the walls. 50mm of the best high density insulation does NOT meet minimum u values.
you still havent clarified if its 50mm in total, or 50mm of insulation and a 12.5mm plasterboard??

Have you engaged any one to advise you yet on how to deal with this meeting??
if not you are still at the mercy of whatever he claims.

Penn

john t wrote: »

when he quizzed on 50mm wall insulation he said he will explain how it works out too be 100mm ??? About ceiling he said he will put something in it....

Big red flags there. 50mm does not work out to be 100m. 50mm is 50mm. If he's saying he fixed it in a certain way which increases the value of it, it's more likely that he didn't fix it in accordance with the manufacturers instructions.

And he's admitting he put no insulation in the ceiling, as he should have done. Plus it sounds like there's no insulation in the floor.

Could you get another builder or some other professional to be there for the meeting too, who would know if the original builder is trying to use technical talk in an attempt to cover up faults?

Also, you say the insulation is 50mm plasterboard. Is that 50mm insulation with 12.5mm plasterboard, or 50mm total? Is there any insulation inside the wall or is it a cavity block?

john t

Its 50mm total on walls and ceiling.Wall is cavity block. Yes we will have somebody else here on day of meeting who will know wat is normal practice. Yes deffo no floor insulation also.

Penn

The 50mm is still not enough to meet regulations unless there's insulation in the walls too. But there should definitely have been floor and ceiling insulation placed.

I suppose just see what he says and how he proposes to correct it. It's definitely good to have someone with you who knows the current requirements and standard practices, so it would be interesting to see what the builder says. Good luck with it.

john t

Ye all we want is issues corrected. Interesting not coming today and saying 50 wrks out too 100.... he will xplain how, 50 + 50 equals 100...pity cant name and shame.

runawaybishop

He probably means the 50mm he put in is high performing and equivalent to 100mm of cheaper stuff. Whatever he says, get the actual values off him. Don't be afraid to takes notes or record the whole meeting.

john t

This appears too be basic standard insultion board not high grade of any type.

john t

Talking too somebody little while ago who said perhaps he trying too tell us his 50mm board is equal too 100mm of rockwool type insulation.

mfceiling

Once again OP,just for clarity. Did you give the builder a set of plans to price and work off or was it made up as he went along?

john t

We had a drawing but no particular specs but we did request a industry standard extension. And through out build we were always saying watever industry spec on insulation is put extra on.. this was said a lot too him .

sydthebeat

john t wrote: »

We had a drawing but no particular specs but we did request a industry standard extension. And through out build we were always saying watever industry spec on insulation is put extra on.. this was said a lot too him .

for what its worth, i just did a quick calculation and, assuming your build is hollow block, 50mm high density insulation with 12.5mm plasterboard backed gives a u value of approx 0.31 W/m2K

if it was the white polystyrene type material used it gives a u value of 0.42 W/m2K

the minimum allowed u value is 0.21 W/m2K which would equate to 140mm of polystyrene or at least 85mm of high density PIR or PU.

john t

Thanks for that info. Not happy with difference in mm, but its all info we can mention when he finaly reappears .. l

john t

Wife phoned builder 20mins ago too reconfirm him calling too us tomorow, now he cant come till friday and wants too bring insulation xpert. Wife mentioned some other small issues too him which he said he would do them and stop fighting with him..we had builder too be here tomorow on our side who cant be here friday, but did us up a report of his findings and regulations..

just do it

A general question for those that are familiar with the building regulations. In the absence of detailed drawings/ specifications/ contact, is the onus of responsibility on the owner of the property and/or on the builder to build to regulatory standards?

martinn123

john t wrote: »

Wife phoned builder 20mins ago too reconfirm him calling too us tomorow, now he cant come till friday and wants too bring insulation xpert. Wife mentioned some other small issues too him which he said he would do them and stop fighting with him..we had builder too be here tomorow on our side who cant be here friday, but did us up a report of his findings and regulations..

sounds like the influence you can apply, for a meeting, at a time to suit you, on your terms, is financial,

I do hope you owe this Guy a load of money.

john t

Met builder today with his insulaton xpert? A man who said he does windows doors insulation wuth no card so told wait outside... when he in he poited out issues in roof and surprized no insulation in flloor.but builder said he followed old floor no insulation..they agree on 85mm on new builds but dont call extension new build...out come they willput rocwol in bottom part of roof and pump upper..

sydthebeat

john t wrote: »

Met builder today with his insulaton xpert? A man who said he does windows doors insulation wuth no card so told wait outside... when he in he poited out issues in roof and surprized no insulation in flloor.but builder said he followed old floor no insulation..they agree on 85mm on new builds but dont call extension new build...out come they willput rocwol in bottom part of roof and pump upper..

Cowboys ted.

Robus

john t wrote: »

their is insulating boards on walls and ceeling but just took out downlighter ....

On a related point, the insulation on the back of the plasterboard is probably polystyrene or polyurethane , in both cases the plasterboard provides the necessary fire barrier from these flammable products . Did your builder just cut a hole in the plasterboard ( fire barrier) and place a potential heat source ( downlighter) beside the flammable material.?

BryanF

john t wrote: »

Met builder today with his insulaton xpert? A man who said he does windows doors insulation wuth no card so told wait outside... when he in he poited out issues in roof and surprized no insulation in flloor.but builder said he followed old floor no insulation..they agree on 85mm on new builds but dont call extension new build...out come they willput rocwol in bottom part of roof and pump upper..

Sorry for your troubles. If it was me I'd be suing.

john t

Yeah we are now looking at legal route. As builder is sisters partner its a case of total ignore sister brother and other sister and neices nephews.. we were told yes i have insurance and my sister enhanced his insurance. Called joe today and he say he have no insurance...now we totally are stunned as all my family recomended him..

just do it

Just remember who's in the right and who's in the wrong. A**h*le if he won't do it right for family and lie through his teeth.

For all that though I'd try and sort it without going the legal route. If you both end up getting stuck in the legal eagles will be the only winners on the long run and it could take years out of your life....

john t

We would rather not go down legal route, too much hassle at end of day..he is proposing too take bottom 2 roof tiles off and pack with rockwool, pump the upper part of roof and pump bottom of wall behind insulation board, using people he knows who we not trust ..

muffler

You need to get yourself an architect or an architectural technician and get them to go through everything done and not done to date and prepare a list of outstanding works and then oversee the completion of these works.

BryanF

john t wrote: »

We would rather not go down legal route, too much hassle at end of day..he is proposing too take bottom 2 roof tiles off and pack with rockwool, pump the upper part of roof and pump bottom of wall behind insulation board, using people he knows who we not trust ..

Without going into the potential issues with the above solution, why would you trust the builder again? Listen to the advice above and get an arch to advise.

Penn

john t wrote: »

We would rather not go down legal route, too much hassle at end of day..he is proposing too take bottom 2 roof tiles off and pack with rockwool, pump the upper part of roof and pump bottom of wall behind insulation board, using people he knows who we not trust ..

But I think another issue which would arise in that case would be that typically, a 50mm gap is required in the roofspace to allow air to circulate. Completely filling the roof construction with insulation would prevent that.

You need to get a professional involved at this stage. Regardless of whether or not you're going down the legal route, a suitable professional should be able to come up with the best solutions to fix all the problems and prevent further issues. You should also get the builder to pay for the professional (whether they be architect, architectural technician, building survey, engineer etc), but you choose the professional (to ensure impartiality).

genuine leather

Any luck john t with getting any of the work rectified on your build?