Leniency on commerical for private runs

Hopsin

Im in the market for a pickup at the minute for my business. And probably like a lot of sole traders/ small businesses, this pickup is genuinely my work vehicle but I can definitely see it getting the odd bit of use for non-work related things from time-to-time.

Obvioulsy wouldnt be ripping the piss with it, but just been that its a pickup a I could see myself ending up going up the mountains to get firewood every now and then or if the missus wanted something in town like a new warddrobe just say, I could myself going up and collecting it. Or if the dog ever had to go to the vet would rather stick him in the back of the crewcab and not having to worry about getting the good car wrecked etc..

Just wondering if I got stopped doing a private run in a commercial is there any kind of leniency at all? Like I said I wouldnt be ripping the piss and dropping the kids to school and then go do shopping kinda thing. Literally would be only a handful of runs per annum.

Thank you.

stoneill

I've been driving a pickup for personal reasons now for 4 years - passed through several checkpoints, even ones with customs checking for back seats. Never had any problems, just waved on.

George Dalton

I have driven many vans all over the country for various uses and have never once been stopped or asked about business vs personal use. I don't know of any instance where anyone has been fined under that law either.

Big Nasty

What's the story with taxing them commercial these days. What do you need or do they even question it?

corktina

strictly speaking you should only use it commercially, but in practise everyone uses vans for whatever and the chances of getting caught are as near to zero as makes no odds. When the Gardai can't even make everyone get tax and Insurance, I can't see this is going to be high on thier agenda somehow

corktina

corktina wrote: »

strictly speaking you should only use it commercially.........n thie

Strictly speaking that's not true, hence why private use of lgvs attracts bik for many. That coupled with appropriate controls on taxing lgvs makes a decent ish system, not perfect or abuse free but decent ish.

dahamsta

MCMLXXV wrote: »

What's the story with taxing them commercial these days. What do you need or do they even question it?

Depends on the motor tax office. Cork requires you to sign a doc saying you'll be using it exclusively for business. It's a nonsense.

dahamsta

Dupe, sorry.

Big Nasty

So all you need to do is sign a form, no Garda stamp or anything? Is it ok to do this for what is essentially a private vehicle but used only to get to and from work?

Thats the exact opposite of what's ok

Big Nasty

RoverJames wrote: »

Thats the exact opposite of what's ok

Why though? If you are a carpenter driving a commercial jeep with tools in the back that's ok but if you are an office worker driving yourself to work (where the person is the actual 'tool'!:pac:) in a commercial jeep it's not?

dahamsta

MCMLXXV wrote: »

So all you need to do is sign a form, no Garda stamp or anything?

I actually can't remember now if I got it stamped or not, but it makes very little difference, the Garda pays as much attention to it add the OTR form. (And it's not his job to, all he's doing is witnessing your "promise".)

Big Nasty

dahamsta wrote: »

I actually can't remember now if I got it stamped or not, but it makes very little difference, the Garda pays as much attention to it add the OTR form. (And it's not his job to, all he's doing is witnessing your "promise".)

And you didn't get asked for a VAT number or proof of employment or anything?

carzony

MCMLXXV wrote: »

And you didn't get asked for a VAT number or proof of employment or anything?

My mate bought a van last week and he had to fill a form out, It just required a Vat Number and I think he had to explain what he wanted the vehicle for..

He is unemployed and prefers a van to a car so he had no vat number and no proof of employement.. He simply used a Vat number from a mcdonalds receipt and just said he was a cleaner and the Guard stamped the form and asked a few basic questions I think...

MCMLXXV

MCMLXXV wrote: »

Why though? If you are a carpenter driving a commercial jeep with tools in the back that's ok but if you are an office worker driving yourself to work (where the person is the actual 'tool'!:pac:) in a commercial jeep it's not?

I think its a fairly looney system as I reckon the once its taxed for what it is that should be the end of it but I reckon its due to the premise that travel to and from your normal place of work is considered private use, so if that's all you use a commercial yoke for its considered private use and not business use.

A carpenter etc would generally not have a normal place of work, they may well have somewhere they are based but any lad working in say a joinery would generally have his tools at work, much like how mechanics usually don't carry their shtuff about with them.

carzony

carzony wrote: »

My mate bought a van last week and he had to fill a form out, It just required a Vat Number and I think he had to explain what he wanted the vehicle for..

He is unemployed and prefers a van to a car so he had no vat number and no proof of employement.. He simply used a Vat number from a mcdonalds receipt and just said he was a cleaner and the Guard stamped the form and asked a few basic questions I think...

So he lied to a garda and supplied a vat number of a company that he doesn't own or work for ?

carzony

RoverJames wrote: »

So he lied to a garda and supplied a vat number of a company that he doesn't own or work for ?

Yep, A good few of the lads I know do it.. I think as long as the form is filled in and you can answer the questions they don't care. I couldnt believe how easy it was. From what I have been hearing though they are gonna be clamping down on this stuff very soon

kirving

Yeah, and if someone from Revenue reads this thread your mate will be the first to be caught. *Open Database>Search>McDonalds>Cleaners>Vehicle Type>Van* Easy! ;-)

carzony

Kevin Irving wrote: »

Yeah, and if someone from Revenue reads this thread your mate will be the first to be caught. *Open Database>Search>McDonalds>Cleaners>Vehicle Type>Van* Easy! ;-)

i'm sure revenue will find a lot of vans registered there, I know of atleast three :eek::eek:

Big Nasty

RoverJames wrote: »

I think its a fairly looney system as I reckon the once its taxed for what it is that should be the end of it but I reckon its due to the premise that travel to and from your normal place of work is considered private use, so if that's all you use a commercial yoke for its considered private use and not business use.

A carpenter etc would generally not have a normal place of work, they may well have somewhere they are based but any lad working in say a joinery would generally have his tools at work, much like how mechanics usually don't carry their shtuff about with them.

Ok, fair enough. So if I was doing something like say computer repairs or something like that that where I would need to travel to different sites but not necessarily need tools it would be ok in that case but again not for the the office worker solely travelling to and from work?

Just curious by the way, not being argumentative.

GTDolanator

I have a van strictly for work,it just so happens to be my only vehicle.I use it for private use too.90% of the use it gets is genuinley of a commercial nature

MCMLXXV

MCMLXXV wrote: »

Ok, fair enough. So if I was doing something like say computer repairs or something like that that where I would need to travel to different sites but not necessarily need tools it would be ok in that case but again not for the the office worker solely travelling to and from work?

Just curious by the way, not being argumentative.

The com repairs would be ok ish but if its a PAYE worker and they own the van there shouldn't be any private use. If its a company van there'd have to be BIK paid, that's 100 per cent ok.

An office worker could have a company van and once the 5 per cent of the OMSP of the yoke is included as notional pay per annum that'd be grand too.

Big Nasty

RoverJames wrote: »

The com repairs would be ok ish but if its a PAYE worker and they own the van there shouldn't be any private use. If its a company van there'd have to be BIK paid, that's 100 per cent ok.

An office worker could have a company van and once the 5 per cent of the OMSP of the yoke is included as notional pay per annum that'd be grand too.

If it's ok for an office worker to have a commercially taxed van supplied by the company I don't see what's wrong with the office worker supplying their own vehicle and taxing it commercially, once it's used to go to and from work only of course.

dahamsta

They can request a company or VAT number but they can't require them; neither are required to run a business.

Marcusm

carzony wrote: »

My mate bought a van last week and he had to fill a form out, It just required a Vat Number and I think he had to explain what he wanted the vehicle for..

He is unemployed and prefers a van to a car so he had no vat number and no proof of employement.. He simply used a Vat number from a mcdonalds receipt and just said he was a cleaner and the Guard stamped the form and asked a few basic questions I think...

hmmm fraud and making false statements, that'll be nice if he's ever caught. Much worse than actually using the van for private use. Bit like the British cabinet minister and penalty points - the charge for lying about it is worse than the offence itself.

Marcusm

RoverJames wrote: »

The com repairs would be ok ish but if its a PAYE worker and they own the van there shouldn't be any private use. If its a company van there'd have to be BIK paid, that's 100 per cent ok.

An office worker could have a company van and once the 5 per cent of the OMSP of the yoke is included as notional pay per annum that'd be grand too.

Is it only 5% now, 20 years ago it was 12.5% (showing my age).

MCMLXXV

MCMLXXV wrote: »

If it's ok for an office worker to have a commercially taxed van supplied by the company I don't see what's wrong with the office worker supplying their own vehicle and taxing it commercially, once it's used to go to and from work only of course.

Yep, its a looney system.

The private use of the company supplied van does incurr BIK though so the government get a few quid there. Of course if its a diesel the company would have made savings on VAT on the purchase and ongoing on diesel, repairs etc etc.

A friend is on disability allowance and has ran a van as a daily driver for 10 years without issue.

ironclaw

Kevin Irving wrote: »

Yeah, and if someone from Revenue reads this thread your mate will be the first to be caught. *Open Database>Search>McDonalds>Cleaners>Vehicle Type>Van* Easy! ;-)

Funnily enough that would be illegal without an investigatory case been opened. Its like those in Revenue dismissed for randomly looking up their neighbours tax affairs etc. Same for Gardai misusing Pulse.

Marcusm

Marcusm wrote: »

Is it only 5% now, 20 years ago it was 12.5% (showing my age).

Yep, max BIK on a car is 30 per cent now iirc, makes having a 20k fully expensed c ar remotely perk ish even with no business miles on higher rate of tax

Big Nasty

RoverJames wrote: »

A friend is on disability allowance and has ran a van as a daily driver for 10 years without issue.

Why do they bother? They don't pay tax! :eek::eek::eek:

MCMLXXV

MCMLXXV wrote: »

Why do they bother? They don't pay tax! :eek::eek::eek:

Apologies, I phrased that wrong, he's on the social welfare payments for folks who can't work, he's not disabled. He's not fit for work though.

Big Nasty

RoverJames wrote: »

Apologies, I phrased that wrong, he's on the social welfare payments for folks who can't work, he's not disabled. He's not fit for work though.

Sound.

So anyhow my understanding is, enforced or not, that it is illegal to tax a privately owned vehicle that you use solely to travel to and from work in as a commercial while perfectly legal if the vehicle is supplied by the company? Correct?

Wishbone Ash

On a similar topic - most SPSVs are commercially taxed but many owners remove the roof sign and use them as private family cars when not working. Is that illegal?

MCMLXXV

MCMLXXV wrote: »

...

So anyhow my understanding is, enforced or not, that it is illegal to tax a privately owned vehicle that you use solely to travel to and from work in as a commercial while perfectly legal if the vehicle is supplied by the company? Correct?

Yep, once bik is paid on the company yoke, illegal is probably not the description though, dunno what the proper term is tbh.

TrailerBob

The whole issue is a nonsense. Im part of an amateur drama group, we bought a van for hauling stuff to shows. i went into the tax office to tax it, only option was private tax.. spoke to the supervisor and thats my lot. Not VAT registered, so apparently its not business use... even though it will only ever be used in connection with our 'business' ....very unhappy...

CiniO

The Act which sets a schedule for different tax classes and their price, doesn't limit use of commercially taxed goods vehicles only to commercial use.
Once vehicle is used mainly for commercial purposes, it's not against the law to use it odd time for other use (f.e. private).

Strange thing though is that some motortax offices require people to sign declaration stating that vehicle will be used only for commercial purposes (no private use) as there are no law backgrounds to require such declaration.

shooter88

Op Iv been drive a commercial since I was 18 and have been all over the country day and night and never asked was I working the insurance didn't even ask where I was working when another driver reversed into me, strangely enough iv been stopped more in the car..if your a sole trader like me really they can't do anything about you collecting a wardrobe if you say your getting paid

doctorchopper

TrailerBob wrote: »

The whole issue is a nonsense. Im part of an amateur drama group, we bought a van for hauling stuff to shows. i went into the tax office to tax it, only option was private tax.. spoke to the supervisor and thats my lot. Not VAT registered, so apparently its not business use... even though it will only ever be used in connection with our 'business' ....very unhappy...

Go to a different tax office and put down your pps number where they ask for a vat number.

meathstevie

Can't see a VAT number being a requirement as it's not required for a business below a certain level of turnover or for certain types of business that are VAT exempt.

meathstevie

meathstevie wrote: »

Can't see a VAT number being a requirement.........

It shouldn't be

http://www.environ.ie/en/LocalGovernment/MotorTax/PublicationsDocuments/FileDownLoad,23874,en.pdf

The income tax registration number is not necessarily a VAT number.

dahamsta

TrailerBob wrote: »

The whole issue is a nonsense. Im part of an amateur drama group, we bought a van for hauling stuff to shows. i went into the tax office to tax it, only option was private tax.. spoke to the supervisor and thats my lot. Not VAT registered, so apparently its not business use... even though it will only ever be used in connection with our 'business' ....very unhappy...

While I don't disagree it's a nonsense, amateur is by definition not a business.