Newborn not sleeping at night

yellow hen

Hi girls, so our little man is now 5 days old. He has a great appetite and apart from getting his clothes and nappies changed he is as good as gold. We're only home since thurs and he sleeps great in Moses basket during the day but at night goes ballistic in it. Last night, after sheer exhaustion, my oh moved to the spare room and I put the baby into the bed with me. He conked straight through to his next feed then.

My questions are:
1. Dd anyone else experience this? I found this thread (http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=72279888 ) which I actually could have written!!

2. Is it dangerous to have the baby in the bed with me? I think I know the answer to this but is there a way to make it less dangerous?

Any advice would be great, we're struggling with it all right now.

January

Welcome to the world of newborns!

It's a big scary world for himself out here, so a bit of comfort from mammy now will do him no harm in the future. It could be that he's experiencing a bit of colic or reflux if it's the lying flat on his back that's waking him. Have you tried swaddling him? It could be his startle reflex.

It's only dangerous to have baby in bed if you are a very heavy sleeper, or you or your partner smoke or have drank.

yellow hen

Thanks January. So tonight we're going to try swaddle him and also put a hot water bottle in the moses to warm it before he gets in. I'm just so tired and found myself a bit down today. I don't know if that's the exhaustion or a touch of the blues I guess I just want some reassurance from those who have been there before and got through it.

littlemissfixit

I co-slept with both my kids.
Keep pillows away, and no big duvet. You will probably find that you only half asleep yourself, I was anyway.
My second, I got him a co-sleeper cot, so I was able if I hadnt fallen asleep in middle of feed, to slide him back in. Or just have my hand soothing him without waking up too much. It was a revelation for me anyway!

Ginny

It takes them a while to get their body clock in rhythm. I know Our little one woke every hour for the first few weeks, but at 6 weeks he started sleeping 8-6/7. Now he's been up and down sleep wise since 15 weeks, but he's settling down again, I know myself at about 4 I usually give up and bring him into bed. My hub has moved to the spare room just to get some sleep for work, but it is getting better. If you're worried about him being in bed you can get little clips similar to the angelcare monitors that monitor the baby's breathing, I think they're called snuzas or respicares?

Moonbeam

Are you breastfeeding him or bottle feeding him?
If you are breastfeeding co-sleeping is the only option.
For the 1st month mine slept cuddled in to me, it is all new and scary for them and you can not spoil a newborn.
After that while you are feeding yourself it is just easier to have them in the bed but also have them used to the basket and if they are being bottle fed then I would definitely put them down in the basket at this stage.

Until they are about 6 weeks old i would not expect an in anyway decent nights sleep.

Eircom_Sucks

I wouldn't encourage taking him into your bed , next thing you won't get him out of it , check for colic or reflux or wind , swaddle us also good , reminds him of being all snug in the womb etc

Congrats and best of luck

We're due our 2nd on may 16 so back to start for me

missis aggie

Don't make it hard if its easy:) co- slept with first - didn't have a problem to put her in her own room. I'm co-sleeping with my 9 week old from birth and as I'm breastfeeding lying down I am bearly waking up and baba sleeps no problem. Tiny baby's need their mammy close. Its normal. There is a lot of info about safe co-sleeping in the internet.
Congratulations and good luck.

ronjo

Moonbeam wrote: »

Are you breastfeeding him or bottle feeding him?
If you are breastfeeding co-sleeping is the only option.

Come on, this is blatantly not true.
I am not saying co-sleeping is wrong but it is certainly not the only option and I think thats a stupid comment to make.

yellow hen

Yes I'm breastfeeding which takes about 1 hour or more per session about 3 times per night. Thanks for all the replies, I'm glad to know we're not alone. Will try swaddling and hot water bottle tonight. We'll also try feeding him downstairs and settling him in Moses before we go to the bedroom. Keep your fingers crossed for us.

January

PHN told me that if bf was taking an hour then it was too long, said that 20 minutes was more than enough to empty one breast completely and anymore was for comfort. I don't know how true that is though!

Please don't think babies should have a routine from a few days. It's going to be a hard few months. Some babies are dream babies and sleep through from a few days old whereas I never had one of those babies and my 18 month old has only just started to sleep through.

Swaddling, co-sleeping and just sitting up with them at night were my options.

How Strange

yellow hen congrats on your little son. It's very normal that newborns don't settle well at night. I think most of have been there, agonised over it and come through it.

Cosleeping is really the ideal if you're breastfeeding as it means you're not constantly getting up to take him into bed, feed, put him back in a Moses basket.

I had my son in bed with us until about 4-5 months. He'd start off in his basket/cot, inevitably end up in our bed around 1am and maybe I'd put him back in his cot around 7.30am just do I could stretch out and sleep. By 6 months he just didn't want to be in our bed anymore and even at 2 years old he'll only sleep in our bed if he's sick. So cosleeping with a newborn doesn't mean they'll be in your bed until they're 21.

Of course stick with the moses basket if you prefer. There's absolutely no right or wrong and it's a matter of finding what works for you.

As January said, feeding for an hour is probably too long. Watch his jaws and when you stop seeing them move then you know he's stopped feeding. At the beginning feeding probably takes a bit longer as you're still getting the hang of it do watch for signs that he's no longer feeding and then take him off the breast.

cyning

Congratulations and 8 months ago I was the exact same!!
I found breastfeeding at night could easily easily take an hour swapping from side to side: she definitely used to cluster feed at night and all her feeds ran in together: so I think what I saw as 2 hour feeds was just her way if building my supply: but as the others said once she stops sucking break her latch.

I was nervous about co-sleeping too so what I did for the first little while was kicked my husband to the spare room (also he had to be up for work at 6 most mornings so to be fair co sleep or not he was going there) had no pillows on the bed and had duvet only as far as my waist and slept face to face with her. Now I have pillows etc on bed but that made me feel better because all I ever heard was co sleeping was bad. Most people I know who breastfeed co sleep too... I just go with what works for us

dahamsta

If you're wondering /why/ baby has that routine, I'm told by my well-resesrched wife that it's because baby comes out to play when Mummy is sleeping; and not bending over or sitting down, using up all my space.

Our first went back in the cot after every feed because of all the warnings we'd seen about cosleeping, but it soon became apparent (after my wife started falling asleep during) that despite her being a heavy sleeper, instinct woke her up when needed. It's still dangerous though, if you decide to do it you should ease into it carefully.

We've a 4 week old now and he's coslept since day one, and he's good as gold. I do spend every second or third night in the spare room though.

Hobbitfeet

Co sleeping is safe I done properly and for sure makes breastfeeding at night easier. Don't worry about spoiling your baby or not being able to get baby out of bed, this is total rubbish and if you raise a happy, secure baby they will have no problem moving to a cot. My boy slept with me every night until he was about 6 months, he then moved into his own cot in our room, yes the first 2 nights were a bit funny but this is normal it's a change!! He moved into his own room at 11 months when we moved house and had no probs with it. He comes into bed with us every morning for snuggles its the best way to wake up.
Your babe is still young so try not to stress about things like this they will all work themselves out in time. Enjoy nursing and that special bond it brings. Soon you will be begging your independent toddler for a cuddle

Pugins

January wrote: »

PHN told me that if bf was taking an hour then it was too long, said that 20 minutes was more than enough to empty one breast completely and anymore was for comfort. I don't know how true that is though!

Would be very wary of breast feeding knowledge of PHN! When both mine were 5 days old they fed for longer than 20 minutes. Fine in a few weeks they were faster but at 5 days we were definitely feeding for up to 40 mins. Mainly as they would fall asleep on the breast!

As for OP I think at 5 days they are still getting used to being out of the womb.

How Strange

I'm reading the Womanly Art of Breastfeeding at the moment and regarding feeding falling asleep it says a newborn baby who is feeding makes a 'keh' sound. At some point when they're satiated they produce a high level of cck hormone which makes them fall asleep. You can either wait until they're in a deep sleep and unlatch him by putting your little finger into the corner of his mouth and turning it like a screw in which case he unlatches or let him sleep as he is. According to this book it's not unusual for them to wake when the hormone level has dropped and they need to feed again which could be in 10 minutes to 3 hours time.

I didn't know that myself but knowing its all part of a natural process definitely takes the stress of us as mums and we know we're not doing something 'wrong'.

dahamsta

Hobbitfeet wrote: »

Co sleeping is safe I done properly and for sure makes breastfeeding at night easier.

Even if done properly there are risks outside the control of the mother, unless she can simply go without sleep altogether. New mothers should be aware of this. As with most things baby-related, a little time spent reading about risks, pros and cons is a good idea. And as helpful as they can be, forums should never, ever be used in exclusion. :-)

Of course the very best source of information for parenting is a first baby. Time machines are what we need!

Hobbitfeet

Did you know there is also risks to your newborn baby sleeping alone in a Moses basket or cot? And there is even greatet risks of your young child sleeping alone in a room by themselves.
Could you please show us what these risks of co sleeping are? Thanks

dahamsta

Of course there are. If you read the entirety of my post, you'd see that I recommend people research risks. Were you not able to read that many words?

And do I really need to specify that a baby can roll into mum or onto its tummy and suffocate, or that mum can roll onto baby with the same result? That a baby can simply fall out of the bed? Those are just the simple risks. Are you seriously telling me you weren't aware of these? Or do you not consider them risks?

Moonbeam

There are risks associated with both , One is not more dangerous then the other unless alcohol or drugs are involved.
Both report incidents of sids.
You will find reports for the pros and cons of both and you need to make an informed decision.
My 1st screamed through the 1st night and the nurses showed me how to co-sleep and it was the only way I got any sleep for the 1st few weeks with my babies.
I would not have them in the bed long term though but I know it works for other people.

lazygal

I coslept as an emergency measure so baby and I got some sleep. I think its common enough in the first six weeks. I woke in a panic a few times but she was grand! I found feeding lying down a life and sleep saver.

I HATED the Womanly Art of Breastfeeding. I found it very evangelical about breast being best, the advice on getting through using a formula top up quite confidence destroying and ended up throwing it across the room on a particularly bad day.

My advice to any new BF mum is to do whatever it takes to keep going. If you need a cleaner in for a day to give you a dig out, do it. If you need to give a formula feed to save your sanity, do it. If you need to take to the bed and marathon feed and cosleep, do it. If you need to get someone in to cook meals to tide you over, do it. The first six weeks are the worst, I found. After that everything settled down for me. Just don't quit on a bad day.

Rachineire

Oh YH I've been right where you are, it can be so difficult when they won't sleep at night, we found swaddling them tightly works a treat!! My baby woke himself up tons from smacking his face, or being cold. Swaddling kept him.still, warm, and I think reminded him.of being in the womb. Once we started that he slept through until his next feeds and I only had to.get up to feed him at night. Then right after the feed/ burp I would swaddle him again and put him straight back down. He fell back asleep so much faster that way. Before I would change him at night if he had a wet diaper but it woke him up too much and it took ages to settle him then. Now I only change him at night if it's poopy.

Don't worry about swaddling them too tight, we found the firmer the better as his arms can't escape! You won't hurt him, I promise! I was terrified of squeezing him too.tight but he was grand! Once we started doing that we all slept much better! Best of luck and I hope you get rest!

Oh and my baby slept in my bed with me from time to time- I had him swaddled on top.of my duvet and I kept one arm around him so I couldn't roll on him and kept him on the outside, not inbetween me and my husband so he wouldn't be squashed or smothered. It's ok to have them in the bed, if your careful its perfectly fine and babies always sleep great in bed with mammy and daddy, it's comforting!

Hannibal Smith

congratulations Yellow Hen! just keep repeating it gets easier...because it does.

Neyite

lazygal wrote: »

My advice to any new BF mum is to do whatever it takes to keep going. If you need a cleaner in for a day to give you a dig out, do it. If you need to give a formula feed to save your sanity, do it. If you need to take to the bed and marathon feed and cosleep, do it. If you need to get someone in to cook meals to tide you over, do it. The first six weeks are the worst, I found. After that everything settled down for me. Just don't quit on a bad day.

Totally agree. For the first 6-7 weeks, ours was nocturnal, so I just slept as much as I could while he did, then I was ok for the night time. But, I kept the bedtime hours dark and the daytime hours bright (including naps) and his body clock adjusted. Ignore any housework/guests, and concentrate wholly on you and baby getting plenty of naps, good food, and a bit of fresh air once a day if you can, even if its a walk around the house in the buggy. I felt that it was a big scary world for the baby and he needed lots of reassuring body contact.

If friends/family can stock up your freezer with easily cooked meals for you, do online food shopping and get it delivered, it all helps so much in the early days.

We couldnt co-sleep, as my partner smokes and is a very heavy sleeper, but when baby got a bit older at 6 months he naps with me in the bed and its lovely. Sometimes I still settle him in our bed then transfer him when asleep to the cot as he is far too heavy to rock to sleep and has been for a while now. If you choose not to co-sleep, try putting a t-shirt that you have worn around the matteress of the moses basket, it might comfort the baby.

Some babies take to breastfeeding easily and are little flyers on the breast, others slowly enjoy their milk and take ages. Keep an ear out for the gulping sound - if you cant hear it for 10 mins, they are comfort sucking. Also if they stop sucking, count to 10, and if they dont re-start, they are done. When mine was new, he needed me to adjust his bottom lip out so the inside rested against the breast for a better latch, so check that if you can.

You'll be like a zombie for a few weeks. A hormonal one. A mombie. But it gets easier.

seamus

I must apologise for having a little giggle at your OP yellow hen.

It's very easy to be a smug parent even when mine is only five months old. Our lady was very similar; lots of sleeping during the day, wide awake and screaming at night. As mentioned above, this is believed to be a result of the mother's patterns when pregnant - lots of moving around and noise during the day rocks the baby off to sleep, deathly silence and stillness at night and the baby wakes up.

The first two weeks was an ordeal. Hadn't a clue where our heads were, practically no sleep, frustration at seemingly having no pattern on which to gauge her. In the hospital, out of sheer frustration, managed to get her only bit of sleep by feeding the child in the bed. But she didn't like the nervousness of having the child there and was a bit uncomfortable because she'd had a section.

At home co-sleeping just couldn't/doesn't work for us, we couldn't see how to have the child in the bed with us. Like trying to sleep with uncooked eggs in the bed and not break them overnight.

What eventually started to help was first and foremost an acceptance that going to bed no longer meant getting a night's sleep, and so learning to catch a few hours during the day and to hell with anything else that had to be done. And secondly, lights and white noise. So when we go to bed it's not pitch black and silent. I have a 5W bulb in a bedside light giving out just the tiniest bit of light, and white noise going at a very low level all night. This helped when she was tiny, she would go off for up to 2 hours during the night, and since about 2.5 months she's been sleeping through the night. Goes down around 10 o'clock, up around 8am.

Forget about patterns or trying to force anything for about 8 weeks. Our little madam just started to align herself around then, all by herself.

As cliché as it is, it does get easier. When she wouldn't sleep, it felt like we'd been living a waking nightmare for about a year. That was less than 3 months ago for us and it feels like ten years ago now, I can barely remember half of it.
It passes, and it passes quickly. That's absolutely zero consolation when it's 3am, you child is crying and your eyes are falling out of your head, but during the day you might find it comforting.
The loneliness is the hardest thing about a child screaming at night. Things which helped us were just to stop trying in vain to get to bed. Get up, stick the TV on, stick the lights on, maybe even Skype some foreign relatives (or some other new mothers!!). Anything which can make you feel like you're not alone will get you through the nights.

Mink

Oh congrats yellow hen!

The first night I had my wee fella we put him to sleep in his huge cot, he was tiny in it. When he woke up during the night I brought him into our bed but I was so terrified I just lay there staring at him. He's not been in our bed since! My husband is a particularly heavy sleeper so I was nervous about that too.

However I was breastfeeding in the beginning and he'd be up for a feed 2-3 times a night and it was a good 2 hours. 1hr to breastfeed (he kept falling asleep on the boob so I'd spend a few mins every so often trying to wake him to keep him feeding) and then 1/2hr for a formula top up (that's a long story as he was in hospital to begin with and I wasn't allowed b.feed him) and then 1/2hr nappy change and getting him back to sleep.

Often we'd get him back to sleep downstairs in the moses (like your fella he would go asleep in it easy during the day especially if it was noisy) and then carry it up to our room.

I think if I were to go again I'd definitely invest in a co sleeper for breastfeeding. The only plus side is he's never slept in our bed so doesn't know any different and he's slept in his big cot in his own room since 3 mths (it's usually advised to wait til 6 mths but I felt he was ready as he was sleeping through and my husband was on shift work so was disturbing him). Even if we've taken him into our bed say on a Sunday morning, he doesn't understand that it's a place he can sleep, he just think it's another play area!

Just take each day and night as it comes. I found I had to go downstairs with him for night feeds as I would fall asleep in bed with him as I was so exhausted and I'd wake to find my boob in his ear or something. Even with the telly on I could barely stay awake on the couch. But then other mothers who b.feed exclusively swear by doing it all in bed at night and keeping the awake time to a minimum. You have to just muddle your way through to find what suits ye & your baby.

Coming up to 8-10 weeks his awake time at night would be an hour and maybe only once or twice and then by 12 weeks he was sleeping through 8-10hrs, which is very lucky. That time period seemed like an absolute eternity at the time but it's all a blur now

NextSteps

How Strange wrote: »

I'm reading the Womanly Art of Breastfeeding at the moment

Heh, me too - getting ready to start all over again at Chapter 1! It's a lovely book though.

yellow hen

Thanks for all the replies. You have actually saved my sanity by making me realise we're not alone. I think the tiredness and hormones got on top of me this week!

Anyway small victory last night, we introduced a soother (he's already had a bottle teet as an addition to breastfeeding). We swaddled him and kept him warm and put him into the Moses asleep each time swaddled and with his soother. He managed to stay out each time. We got about 5 hours sleep which was just lovely!!

He's still a very hungry baby so we're thinking of introducing aptimil first milk as a last feed before bedtime. I'm not sure how much to give though as there aren't really quantities for breastfeeding. Has anyone else done this?

cyning

yellow hen wrote: »

Thanks for all the replies. You have actually saved my sanity by making me realise we're not alone. I think the tiredness and hormones got on top of me this week!

Anyway small victory last night, we introduced a soother (he's already had a bottle teet as an addition to breastfeeding). We swaddled him and kept him warm and put him into the Moses asleep each time swaddled and with his soother. He managed to stay out each time. We got about 5 hours sleep which was just lovely!!

He's still a very hungry baby so we're thinking of introducing aptimil first milk as a last feed before bedtime. I'm not sure how much to give though as there aren't really quantities for breastfeeding. Has anyone else done this?

Brilliant: I found a soother a must!

To be honest I was supplementing with Aptamil on hosp advice (wrong advice I might add), and she still didn't sleep any more or any better: the reason your babs is feeding what feels like non stop is to build your supply: introducing a bottle can interrupt that. It certainly did in my case. I know its so hard for you right now to imagine in a few weeks it will all settle down: if there are any breastfeeding groups/La Leche/Cuidiu near you go to them: its fantastic to see other people in the same boat. Or is your PHN good? If they are they can be great for advice but I know alot mightn't be as supportive of breastfeeding as mine was.

When I was supplementing I was giving 100ml once a day at night. I wouldn't bother with the powdered formula as it only lasts a month: the cartons of premade are handy: they are 200ml and I used use one every two days.

Neyite

I introduced a bedtime bottle of aptimal at 3 months. I thought it best to fully establish breastfeeding and supply first, and colicky symptoms and problems tend to settle down a bit more by then.

Fly59

Well done on the swaddling and the soother, 5 hours sleep is amazing! I'd advise against supplementing with formula, I also did this under hospital's advice and worked so hard to then wean DD off it. Avoid all the hassle of sterilising and bottles, so much hard work! You're doing the hard work now in bf, and it'll all pay off and become so easy in no time. I found once I rested during the daytime naps too, I could keep going easier. I used a toddler bed rail on the side of our bed, and I fed my DD lying down, then we'd both drift off for a nap. I'd just have the duvet over me and have her between me and the bed rail. She's now using the bed rail on her own little bed