Which Honda will come cheaper?

CiniO

Two options.

Car will do about 25k kilometres per year.

1. 2006 - 2007 Honda Civic 1.8 I-VTEC hatchback with up to 80k miles.
- cost of purchase - about 7000euro.
- Annual costs:
- tax: 636
- petrol: 2880 (assuming av consumption at 7.2l/100km = 39.2MPG)
- maintenance (service + repairs, excluding tyres) - 500 ????
total annual costs: 4016euro

2. 2009 - 2010 Honda Insight 1.3 IMA Hybrid with up to 60k miles
- cost of purchase - about 9500 euro.
- Annual costs:
- tax: 190
- petrol: 2080 (assuming av consumption at 5.2l/100km = 54MPG)
- maintenance (service + repairs, excluding tyres) - 500 ?????
total annual cost: 2770euro


Both cars seem to be similar in size and would suit me.

Civic is much faster (8.6s 0-62mph) comparing to Insight (12.5s 0-62mph - varies on actual battery charge - can be better or worse) so this is big plus for civic, but I could as well live with slower car if needed.

Civic can be fitted with towbar and pull a trailer while Insight can't, but I would need this only once or twice a year, so it wouldn't be much more expensive to actually rent a van for those occasions than pay for fitting towbar on civic and pay for renting a trailer.

Insight is automatic CVT with paddle-shifters by steering wheel for virtual gear changes, and I think it's very nice feature. Prefer it over manual civic, but again manual is OK.

Insight is quite futuristic car, which idea I like.

In general I like both cars, and now it's mostly down to costs.

Insight is slightly more to purchase, but comes cheaper in annual costs (obviously assuming I made calculations right, and assuming those costs won't change (tax, fuelprice))

I would probably keep the car for about 3 years and have no clue about depreciation I can expect.

Adding costs (purchase + 3 years annual costs):

Civic: 7000 + 3 x 4016 = 19048
Insight: 9500 + 3 x 2770 = 17810

That's how much those car will cost me over next 3 years. Insight looks cheaper.
Could anyone give a guess how much will those cars be worth in 3 years? That would show which one is going to be cheaper, but I assume Insight should be worth more in 3 years - so that's another point for Insight - however I'm only guessing.

Also I'm absolutely not sure if maintenance cost will be as I listed, or completely different. Would possibly Insight be much more expensive to maintain?


Any feedback appreciated.

Del2005

Batteries for the Insight would be my biggest concern.

It'll be 7 years old when you go to sell it, how good the batteries are then would be the biggest possible expense for a buyer and also could seriously increase fuel consumption if they aren't in good condition for you and a potential buyer.

lau1247

have you got a quote for insurance?

it is not a big factor but probably should be included to make a good comparison

650Ginge

A toyota Prius will be cheaper again.

CiniO

lau1247 wrote: »

have you got a quote for insurance?

it is not a big factor but probably should be included to make a good comparison

No, I didn't actually get a quote from my insurer, but I can't imagine any of those cars being any more expensive than my current car.
Good point though - i ring them to make sure.

CiniO

650Ginge wrote: »

A toyota Prius will be cheaper again.

Cheaper in what way? I won't be able to get 09 to 10 Prius for the same money as 09 maybe 10 Insight.

Prius might be cheaper to run fuelwise, but I'm not sure if maintenance costs wouldn't be higher than for Insight.
Hybrid Synergy Drive is actually way more advanced system, and if something goes wrong there, it might be very costly.
But the most important is fact that I just seem to prefer the styling of Insight, better handling, etc...
However I'm not saying no to Prius - average costs will proabably be similar to Insight in the end.
But what I wanted can't decide still is between this and normal petrol Civic.

CiniO

Del2005 wrote: »

Batteries for the Insight would be my biggest concern.

It'll be 7 years old when you go to sell it, how good the batteries are then would be the biggest possible expense for a buyer and also could seriously increase fuel consumption if they aren't in good condition for you and a potential buyer.

True.
But first gen Insight had similar system, and most of batteries even tough over 10 years, they still seem to go fine. Civic hybrid also used this from 2006 and owners doesn't seem to have problems with batteries.

Do you think Prius battery would be better?

Gsxr600

I would go with 1.8 civic for few reasons:

1. 1.8 engine can do much better than 7.2l / 100km

(I used to drive 1.8 vvti celica 143 bhb - best fuel consumption was 5.8 l /100 km and not driving slowly. With 6 speed manual at 100km/h You should not go over 2500rpm).
2. No need to worry about batteries if something goes wrong.
3. Maybye learn to eco drive, huge savings can be made that way.

Even better if U could get 2008 with new tax.
Either way good luck with new car and happy motoring.

corkgsxr

Id get the civic. Iv always stuck to the rule of never smaller than 1.6. Smaller than that I tend to use more pertol or diesel trying to get the ****er to more at a decent pace

650Ginge

CiniO wrote: »

Cheaper in what way? I won't be able to get 09 to 10 Prius for the same money as 09 maybe 10 Insight.

Prius might be cheaper to run fuelwise, but I'm not sure if maintenance costs wouldn't be higher than for Insight.
Hybrid Synergy Drive is actually way more advanced system, and if something goes wrong there, it might be very costly.
But the most important is fact that I just seem to prefer the styling of Insight, better handling, etc...
However I'm not saying no to Prius - average costs will proabably be similar to Insight in the end.
But what I wanted can't decide still is between this and normal petrol Civic.

Ifs, buts and maybes....

Well first of all the Prius is a far better hybrid and not just because I have one. It's ultra reliable and they go beyond 350,000 miles if looked after without much issues.

I would have thought the Hybrid in the Prius is more advanced, it certainly is better. The Prius would also be more powerful.

Going by wiki the 09+ insight's engine is more powerful than the MK II Prius 04-09. But the motor of the Prius far more powerful both in the MK II and III, this is what matters most, and where you use the energy stored in the battery and how. It takes learning. The Engine in the MK III is 98 HP 1.8.

The civic would be a lot more fun to drive and if you can get access to LPG up there at a decent rate, you could convert it and depending on price, would work out as cheap to run as a 60 mpg diesel, based on the 81 C/L I could get LPG here.

The batteries in the Prius are ultra reliable and after 6 years and 94,000 miles the battery in mine is still perfect. As with all cars you may or may not have issues but it's rare for a battery to fail in the Prius, and even if it did you can get them on the internet a hell of a lot cheaper than they were 8 years ago. But I wouldn't worry about it.

The insight batteries are also very reliable, though some issues were reported in the early days, I've not heard anything much about them.

But like everything else, you will hear about the bad. Like the Nissan Leaf, a few batteries got too hot and died earlier in Arizona due to extreme heat, but 99.5% of all Leaf's sold have no issues. But their batteries are far more stressed than in a hybrid.

You will pick up a MK II prius with 80,000 miles for a good price and if it has a full service history, there have been a few recalls, so check that out. But with 80,000 on a Prius, it has many many years of life left in it. No DPF to fail, No DMF, No timing belts, No alternator, Only 1 belt to drive the water pump.

JohnBoy26

Get a honda civic, but get the saloon version as it's a better car than the hatch.

BTY the new model Prius from 09 on had 0 belts to change, absolutely 0.

So for 0-100,000 miles all you need is oil, filters every 15,000 kms, plugs every 60,000 Miles Thay last a long time.

Idbatterim

are both of these petrol? why noy not a diesel at 25,000 km per year?

http://www.carzone.ie/search/Ford/Mondeo/NT-ZETEC/15413403899885010/advert?channel=CARS

The Mondeo would drink a lot more diesel than a Prius petrol.

CiniO

JohnBoy26 wrote: »

Get a honda civic, but get the saloon version as it's a better car than the hatch.

I looked up saloon civic, but it's completely unsuitable for me.
Boot is too small, and seats and not folding down.

CiniO

Deleted User wrote: »

BTY the new model Prius from 09 on had 0 belts to change, absolutely 0.

So for 0-100,000 miles all you need is oil, filters every 15,000 kms, plugs every 60,000 Miles Thay last a long time.

I don't think I can afford gen 3 Prius.
Even if I could get one, it would be with lowest T3 trim level and high mileage, so I would prefer older generation but in TSpirit and low mileage.


Why do you say - 0-100,000 miles only?
Is there any major work at 100,000 to be done?
I know about transmission oil to be changed at 100,000miles, but is there anything else?
How much does it cost to get this transmission oil done?

CiniO

Idbatterim wrote: »

are both of these petrol? why noy not a diesel at 25,000 km per year?

http://www.carzone.ie/search/Ford/Mondeo/NT-ZETEC/15413403899885010/advert?channel=CARS

Neeah..
I don't want diesel, and even more I don't want mondeo, even if it could save me money, which I doubt ...

But thanks for idea

CiniO

CiniO wrote: »

I don't think I can afford gen 3 Prius.
Even if I could get one, it would be with lowest T3 trim level and high mileage, so I would prefer older generation but in TSpirit and low mileage.


Why do you say - 0-100,000 miles only?
Is there any major work at 100,000 to be done?
I know about transmission oil to be changed at 100,000miles, but is there anything else?
How much does it cost to get this transmission oil done?

I don't know how much it costs, I don't know if it's part of the schedule, but it's recommended on the prius u.s forum. The electric motor is lubricated and cooled by the oil and some can have metallic bits floating around that could possibly short the windings of the motor. But that is extremely rare. Remember the Prius is one of the most reliable cars ever built.

The coolant also may need to be replaced, it's a bigger job naturally but if it's still pink it may not need to be changed. But that only has to be (or not) done every 100,000 miles.

I must ask Toyota.

But I certainly wouldn't get the civic hybrid.

CiniO

Deleted User wrote: »

I don't know how much it costs, I don't know if it's part of the schedule, but it's recommended on the prius u.s forum. The electric motor is lubricated and cooled by the oil and some can have metallic bits floating around that could possibly short the windings of the motor. But that is extremely rare. Remember the Prius is one of the most reliable cars ever built.

The coolant also may need to be replaced, it's a bigger job naturally but if it's still pink it may not need to be changed. But that only has to be (or not) done every 100,000 miles.

I must ask Toyota.

Thanks.

But I certainly wouldn't get the civic hybrid.

Civic hybrid was never an option, mostly due to the fact that it's only available in saloon which wouldn't suit me.

Insight though would suit me well, but you strongly pulled me now into Prius side.
I'll still need to think about it.
Maybe just normal petrol civic will be the good option as well.
I wanted to do a proper research before buying a car, to actually know what I'm buying, but at this stage I'm too confused as I really don't know what I want.
I hoped this thread will help me choose, but it made even more mess in me head

@81

Sorry I meant to say not to get insight, but I wouldn't get civic hybrid either.

I would go for a decent spin in the prius, they are not everyone's cup of tea.

The Civic 1.8 vtec would be a nicer car to drive, (power wise) and on LPG would be as cheap as a 60 mpg prius, based on LPG at 81 C/L

Prius MK II on LPG would be the same as a 90-94 mpg petrol or diesel car, even including the 10% less efficiency of LPG with modern conversions. Again based on LPG @81 C/L.

Prius is a decent size car, and quiet but as all cvt with low power engines it roars under high engine revs. You need to take it for a spin and then make up your mind.

The MK III Prius would a be a much better bet if you could afford it but the extra cost over the MK II would buy a lot of petrol, but it would be a better car, obviously as it's updated.

CiniO

Deleted User wrote: »

Sorry I meant to say not to get insight, but I wouldn't get civic hybrid either.

I would go for a decent spin in the prius, they are not everyone's cup of tea.

The Civic 1.8 vtec would be a nicer car to drive, (power wise) and on LPG would be as cheap as a 60 mpg prius, based on LPG at 81 C/L

Prius MK II on LPG would be the same as a 90-94 mpg petrol or diesel car, even including the 10% less efficiency of LPG with modern conversions. Again based on LPG @81 C/L.

Prius is a decent size car, and quiet but as all cvt with low power engines it roars under high engine revs. You need to take it for a spin and then make up your mind.

The MK III Prius would a be a much better bet if you could afford it but the extra cost over the MK II would buy a lot of petrol, but it would be a better car, obviously as it's updated.

I drove a gen 3 Prius (1.8) for over a week 2 years ago, when I got it as a rental car. This was actually really nice surprise, as I booked Kia Ceed, and as they run out of cars in this class, they gave me brand new Prius (it literally had 3k miles on the clock)
So I generally know how it drives, and I like it.
I'm not sure how big difference is there between gen2 and gen3 Prius though?
Especially when it comes to comfort, acceleration, handling, etc..

But the review seem to show that Insight is more fun to drive than Prius. And it looks better. So even though Prius is more advanced and probably better designed car, I still didn't drop the idea of Insight.

LPG is not an option. The nearest station selling it is 40km away, and they charge 1.10 per litre. Completely not worth it. Beside I think you mentioned it earlier, and I couldn't find any online review of anyone converting Prius to LPG. I'm affraid that with such complicated machine as Prius, fitting LPG is just asking for trouble. And trust me, I'm not complete novice to LPG. I had 2 cars running on LPG. Last one was Fiat Bravo 1.6 with BRC JUST conversion, for which I bought interface to my laptop and was able to adjust all the parameters myself. LPG is very good way of saving money on fuel (once it's available where you drive) but it will always increase the number of problems you might have with your vehicle. And if you are running on incorrectly adjusted conversion, which makes LPG-air mixture too rich in LPG (or too rich in air) then it's the easiest way to destroy your engine in relatively quick time.
So LPG - yes, but first of all it must be converted by someone who really knows what's he doing, and must be regularly serviced, checked and adjusted to make sure it's running well.
In Prius IMHO it not worth the risk.

If you google Prius lpg conversion you'll fond lots of examples and check out the priuschat I think it is, forum.

Yes LPG conversion has to be done properly but if done properly it doesn't matter if you convert a hybrid or not.

The difference with the MK II & III Prius is, for it looks better inside and out.

It's supposed to be better to drive ( I never drove it) but the higher power engine should make acceleration better and far quieter as the engine has a lot more torque than the MK II.

The MK III also has a claimed 74 or so combined mpg, and if I can match or better the MK II official claims, then I see no reason not to believe them.

It will take time to learn how to drive a hybrid properly and it doesn't mean like a granny, but just where and when and how to use the battery energy, or no energy at all using pulse and glide.

CiniO

Deleted User wrote: »

If you google Prius lpg conversion you'll fond lots of examples and check out the priuschat I think it is, forum.

Yes LPG conversion has to be done properly but if done properly it doesn't matter if you convert a hybrid or not.

The difference with the MK II & III Prius is, for it looks better inside and out.

It's supposed to be better to drive ( I never drove it) but the higher power engine should make acceleration better and far quieter as the engine has a lot more torque than the MK II.

The MK III also has a claimed 74 or so combined mpg, and if I can match or better the MK II official claims, then I see no reason not to believe them.

It will take time to learn how to drive a hybrid properly and it doesn't mean like a granny, but just where and when and how to use the battery energy, or no energy at all using pulse and glide.

In MK3 Prius I mentioned above, I think I manage to do average of 4.2 l/100km (67MPG) over 400km round trip (country roads + towns in busy traffic). That was driving as economical as I could.
And on the other side, I also did the non-economial run with accelerating with pedal to the metal nearly all the time from green lights and stopping harshly by red light. Testing maximum speed, and generally flooring the car as possible. Over about 200km of driving like this, I got 6.3 l/100km in return (44MPG) which IMO was absolutely great.
If I tried that kind of driving in my current petrol car, I would get around 20mpg I suppose).

Well driving economically always helps but learning when, where and how, to use the battery energy helps greatly as does getting to know what's going on, such as when you are driving only on battery, when you are going down a slight decent and feather the throttle it will run on battery and keep momentum going, rather than drive the car, this can make a huge difference, or if going at speeds up to 71 kph use pulse and glide where you lift off the throttle, gently push until no energy is flowing at all then you are coasting and using no fuel at all.

Changing to neutral will fire up the engine and so consume fuel.

Hit e.v mode when stuck at lights if the engine doesn't want to shut off. Don't drive in e.v mode.

Keep the heater at a sensible heat or the engine will have to run a lot more often.

Every time you turn on heat you also turn on the ac compressor and so you need to turn this off as it runns of the high voltage battery and not the engine.

All in all I love the Prius, and those tricks I learned I can know what mode I'm in just by the feel of the car. It comes naturally.

Every time I get into a normal car I realise how noisy and unrefined they are. And there is the vibration, especially in diesels that I hate and they sound so rough now. The Prius is noisy when you accelerate hard but the new one should be much better.

mad m

Mad_lad,

After reading some of your posts, I'm interested in getting a test drive now of the Prius.But with your suggestions of pulse and glide, trying to explain this to the other half would be a mind melt.:)

Oh yeah I tried to explain to my gf but she couldn't care less. She just wants to get in and drive that's it.

Remember to get an idea of your fuel consumption, reset the trip computer after every tank not every trip.

I think my next car will be a leaf, 2nd hand maybe. There are a good few new fast chargers to come online this year.

mad m

Deleted User wrote: »

Oh yeah I tried to explain to my gf but she couldn't care less. She just wants to get in and drive that's it.

Remember to get an idea of your fuel consumption, reset the trip computer after every tank not every trip.

I think my next car will be a leaf, 2nd hand maybe. There are a good few new fast chargers to come online this year.

Well it's got to be better than a 2litre Honda Accord at present. Feck those ssia's back in the day.:)

Del2005

CiniO wrote: »

True.
But first gen Insight had similar system, and most of batteries even tough over 10 years, they still seem to go fine. Civic hybrid also used this from 2006 and owners doesn't seem to have problems with batteries.

Do you think Prius battery would be better?

All batteries wear out, so no I don't rate the Prius over the Insight. But since people seem to be getting decent mileage out of them it may not be a big issue as I assumed.

The Prius only uses a small % of the battery which greatly enhances it's cycle life. Calendar life is pretty good for NiMh cells too.