The stagnation of American animation?

johnny_ultimate

I was at a preview of The Flinstones Ice Age The Croods earlier, which is a Dreamworks animation about a family of cave people fighting for survival as Pangea breaks-up. It's full of family bonding, wacky animal sidekicks, hyperactive / physics defying setpieces, technically impressive animation and - of course - an emotionally charged third act. It's fine enough for what it is, but I've lost count of the amount of times I've seen what it is before.

The film was co-directed by Chris Sanders, who was also responsible for How to Train Your Dragon (which I think its safe to say is a safe but excellent film, and certainly a standout of the Dreamworks output so far). Sanders backstory is interesting - after making Lilo & Stitch, he started work on a film called American Dog. What happened next is still a bit vague, but reading between the lines its very clear that his ideas were more than likely a little too offbeat and subversive for Disney, and he was fired. The film was re-purposed (or, if you wish, Disneyified) as the solid but extremely familiar Bolt. One would have hoped his move to Dreamworks would have lent a little more creative freedom than it his. We can't really argue with ... Dragon's latent conservatism given the quality of the film, but it's harder to forgive in the case of something less inspiring like The Croods. Where is that spirit of rebellion that lost him his pet project and a job at the house of mouse?

Apologies but that was a slightly roundabout way to get to my core question: are you happy with the state of American animation as is? It's a question I find myself pondering every couple of years, usually silenced when a particularly excellent Pixar film comes along (Wall-E, Up and Toy Story 3 made for. But it's been a couple of years since Pixar's last masterpiece, and while there's been some decent productions in the interim - from Paranorman (which I've yet to watch, but have heard generally good things about) to Brave - there has been a whole lot of familiarity even in the better films. Something like Frankenweenie at least tries a different aesthetic and tone - with mostly positive results - but again cannot resist many of the cliches of the 'genre' (should animation even be considered a genre?). And the great Pixar themselves more often than not only remix and revisit their core tropes (buddy comedy, emotive finale, non-speaking object / creature lent anthropomorphic qualities) albeit often with a surplus of imagination.

After The Croods and Wreck It-Ralph - which I wanted to love, but was ultimately extremely frustrated with due to its lazy adherence to formula - recently, I do find myself longing for something braver (Brave excepted). Obviously formula sells tickets and gets executives on-board (CGI ain't cheap), and there's the old 'but they're for kids' argument. But that's missing the point, as well as being condescending to kids who can sure as hell deal with dark **** as history has proven (Bambi, Grave of the Fireflies etc...) There's a lot of very creative, talented directors working in American animation, but they're somewhat shackled by the restrictions placed on them by executives. Toy Story 3, for example, pretty much perfected the whole 'emotional third act' structure, so the less effective examples in The Croods or Wreck It Ralph can't help but feel like a whole lot of nothing, especially as they tend to crap out with a full-on happy 'everything is perfectly resolved' ending. You just have to look at Studio Ghibli for a family friendly studio constantly producing unusual and diverse productions. Their budgets are high too - by Japanese industry standards anyway - but they also rake in the receipts without simply recycling their ideas in a different skin.

But I've just brainfarted, so better open up to the floor. Are you happy or unhappy with American animation as it stands?

krudler

Of recent I enjoyed Dreamwork's movies more than Pixar's, something I never thought I'd hear myself say.
I hated the Shrek franchise (first one was good, sequels were awful), Madagascar too (the last one was entertaining enough though) but How To Train.. and Kung Fu Panda 2 were both fantastic. I wish Pixar would drop any planned sequels bar The Incredibles (which I think stands alongside stuff like TDK and X-Men 2 as far as great superhero movies are concerned and would love to see a follow up) and go back to more offbeat stuff like Up. Brave was ok but pretty generic, ironically it could have been a Dreamworks movie from a few years ago.

ParaNorman is well worth a watch, enjoyed it far more than Frankenweenie, it's pretty dark in places and has some jet black humour, and I expected to love Wreck It Ralph but the tone of it seemed really muddled, its full of references that kids won't get, yet full of juvenile humour, Silverman's character and the whole Sugar Rush act ruined it, so many classic games that a plot could have been set in and they pick a generic kart racer for it to focus on. I loved the first half hour or so then it kinda loses it in the second act and gets all predictable. I thought the short Paper Man was the best part of going to Wreck It Ralph, lovely animation in that.

Trying to think of other animated films that impressed lately, 9 was good, nice looking and pretty bleak

Tipsy McSwagger

Pixar seem to have run out of ideas and are turning out sequels more and more (they better leave Wall-E alone) which is rather worrying. HTTYD blew me away and I thought it was way better than Toy Story 3, but the most underrated animated film of the last few years is Coraline. It's just a beautiful and very very dark film which looks stunning on blu ray.

e_e

Still waiting for a mainstream American animation with the maturity, depth and sophistication of the likes of The Illusionist, Mary and Max, Waltz With Bashir, Persepolis and Paprika.

The Pheasant

I want hand drawn animation back! I want the Disney Renaissance again

norrie rugger

I disagree that it is stagnation of American animation. This is happening throughout mainstream cinema, in all areas. It is just more obvious in animation as, while they may not be totally aimed at kids anymore, the stories still need to be kid accessible.

The Pheasant

The Pheasant wrote: »

I want hand drawn animation back! I want the Disney Renaissance again

Studio Ghibli are continually releasing hand drawn animation, so it's good to know that someone out there is still doing it.

As for American animation, I must agree. For years, both Pixar and Dreamworks were bringing out cutting edge animations, that were entirely original too. It seems like they're not willing to do that anymore - as mentioned previously, in recent years the best animations for me were Coraline, How to Train Your Dragon, and Cloudy With a Chance of Meatballs.

However, in some ways it's interesting that there is a certain stagnation in the American industry as it gives both smaller and international studios a chance to shine.

Thwip!

Incredibles
How To Train Your Dragon
Mars Needs Moms
Toy Story Trilogy
Tangled
Coraline
Megamind
Spirited Away
Secret of Kells

Those are the ones that I've seen which pop to mind when I think of great animated films of the last decade (or so what with toy story)
Basically we need more Brad Bird and Neil Gaiman involvement story wise

I've dying to see the Eden of the East movie though. love that series

Links234

johnny_ultimate wrote: »

But that's missing the point, as well as being condescending to kids who can sure as hell deal with dark **** as history has proven (Bambi, Grave of the Fireflies etc...)

don't forget this guy: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Don_Bluth

Land Before Time was heartbreaking

Links234

Links234 wrote: »

don't forget this guy: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Don_Bluth

Land Before Time was heartbreaking

An American Tail (1986), The Land Before Time (1988), All Dogs Go to Heaven (1989), Rock-a-Doodle (1991)

Great. I have absolutely no idea how many tears that guy is responsible for during my childhood :pac:

johnny_ultimate

norrie rugger wrote: »

I disagree that it is stagnation of American animation. This is happening throughout mainstream cinema, in all areas. It is just more obvious in animation as, while they may not be totally aimed at kids anymore, the stories still need to be kid accessible.

I agree and disagree with that assertion. While a lot of mainstream cinema has undoubtedly stagnated / infantilized, there's usually plenty of diamonds in the rough too (the last two months, for example, saw quite a number of high-quality wide releases). The frustration with animation in particularly is that there's a lot of great directors working there who really could make something special if they could spread their wings a bit outside of the tried-tested-and-tried-and-tested-again formula.

Deleted User wrote: »

However, in some ways it's interesting that there is a certain stagnation in the American industry as it gives both smaller and international studios a chance to shine.

There's been some great international animation, but a lot of it disappears or barely registers in the West. It's been near two years since Ghibli's Poppy Hill debuted in Japan, and there's still no wide UK / Ireland release date - and that's for a studio that has an established, commercially viable audience. Certainly would be nice to see some of the more interesting world animations get more attention, even if the likes of Waltz with Bashir are definitely more 'arthouse' fare anyway. Summer Wars, for example, would have gone down a bomb with a much wider audience, but alas it was relegated to a small home release and barely registered with even critics.

Thwip! wrote: »

I've dying to see the Eden of the East movie though. love that series

Stick with the series: they are two of the worst films I've ever had the displeasure to sit through. Shockingly poor stuff. The TV show was only OK, but the films were just pointless.

Galvasean

Ah the good ol' days when animation wasn't afraid to traumatize children

Thwip!

johnny_ultimate wrote: »

Stick with the series: they are two of the worst films I've ever had the displeasure to sit through. Shockingly poor stuff. The TV show was only OK, but the films were just pointless.

Really? That's disappointing

swiftblade

It all comes down to not taking risks in order to reel in the Benjamins.

It certainly isn't due to lack of creativity as a whole. Just look at some of the recent Disney shorts. Paper Man and La Luna for example. Stunning animation and storytelling.

The problem being is that none of this is marketable or franchiseable.


Regarding Pixar and their apparent loss in creative driven animation. Well they do have a few things in the works. I have a felling their next film will set the tone for the future.


And regarding the sequels they keep churning out. Weren't they tied into some sort of contract with Disney, in which there 3 most successful films had to have 3 follow-ups? I could be wrong though.

Links234

I knew I had a point with Don Bluth...

I was gonna mention Titan AE and what a great movie it was, and how it was sadly a flop that ended up with the closure of Fox Animation studios? it was a sci fi adventure, and really good. but I was kinda thinking, when have we seen any animated films like that?

Rankin Bass in the 80's were great too, anyone remember this?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m5RpRxS28RA

Turtyturd

I think in Sanders' defence if that spirit of rebellion got you fired from one of the two big animation companies, you might be a bit more reserved when it comes to promoting your ideas in your new job.

Optimalprimerib

Of all the movies that have been released over the last few years, how to train your dragon stands out as my favorite, partially due to the flawless soundtrack.

I felt that they can still be brave in the themes they try to set. The feminine maternal theme in brave was, well brave. It is safer for the theme to be more masculine but they took a risk with this but that is Pixar for you. There original material still tries to push a boundary.

Wreck it Ralph disappointed me. The whole purpose for the protagonist to go on the adventure was weak and selfish so I never really connected with him.

But ultimately, the market is too saturated with them in which each and every one is a family comedy. That is why they are beginning to stagnate.

BlitzKrieg

I'll write more when I get to a computer but after seeing the croods today I both get why this thread exists but also somewhat disagree. But the croods had in its third act to be something special and pulled back intentionally

BlitzKrieg

-Ok-


I'm back at a pc. I saw the Croods today and for the most part I loved it.

Ok firstly and very importantly as I recalled and importantly left out in the thought process of this discussion:

The film was originally being made by Aardman Animations as a part of a five-film deal with DreamWorks Animation. Announced in 2005 under the working title Crood Awakening,[9] and as a stop motion film,[10] John Cleese and Kirk DeMicco wrote the first few drafts of the script.[11] With the departure of Aardman in beginning of 2007, the rights for the film reverted to DreamWorks.[12] In March 2007, Chris Sanders, the director of Lilo & Stitch, joined DreamWorks to direct the film, with intentions to significantly rewrite the script.[14] In September 2008, it was reported that Sanders took over How to Train Your Dragon putting The Croods on hold[15] and thus postponing its original schedule for a year to a then planned March 2012.[16] The film's final title, The Croods, was revealed in May 2009, along with new co-director, Kirk DeMicco.[17] In March 2011, the film got another delay, being pushed back a year to March 1, 2013,[18] and finally settled at March 22.[19]

I did remember reading about the film years ago and it had a very different plot (the film had a lighter tone and was about a dispute between two cavemen families where one had invented fire and the other was trying to outdo this etc) I also think Chris Sander's style and creative touch screams from this movie, for good and bad reasons. The character of Eep is very much a Chris Sander staple, you just got to put her beside lilo or astrid from his last two films and you can see both the design and the character traits carrying over. All the animals echo how to train your dragon, in fact I wouldnt be surprised if they had used the same assets to make one of the big cats as they did for him, it was very similar. But as much as Chris Sander's brought the world much more to life with his input I do believe his input into the story caused the film to suffer.

Now I can completely understand Johnny Ultimate making this thread after seeing the film for 2 reasons

1. The film at the beginning of its second half really stumbles and loses its way for a bit cause chris sanders input (the eep character) plotline has been very easily tied up and they need to quickly resolve Grug (nicholas cage's character and who I suspect was original the films lead) part in this story. As a result you get a very flat and uninteresting conflict that is also resolved far too smoothly.

This is pretty much a strange problem as the film swaps leads in the second half and the character who has been narrating and been who we have followed throughout the story drops into the background and the person who has somewhat been our antagonist suddenly becomes our protagonist. It gets very messy.

Leading to an ending that could have been so much better. Essentially we get and ending to a different film which is really good and then the ending to the film that made up most of the first half follows it and the two are very awkwardly tied together.

It feels like that while it was not a troubled production, but it was one that they set off in one direction got way too far down it and didnt want to drop it. I think the Guy character was meant to be a smaller role originally but that they kept expanding it along side Eep to result in needing to cut from what might have been originally there.


So I can see why someone could look at the croods and feel that it had potential to go one step further and opted instead to play it safe.

But this isnt stagnation, Like others have said here, I think Dreamworks have been on a sort of a roll since 2008 with at least one of their films being arguably the best of the year each year (with exception for 2009 where UP just outright blew everything away and 2012 where it was Paranorman and Wreck it Ralph for me) I dont know how big dreamworks is in comparison to pixar, but the fact that they put out such volume and also deliver in quality so often is a very impressive feat on its own.

I love Pixar but UP was their last truly special film I've seen. I really enjoyed toy story 3 but it is imo a flawed film with some outstanding scenes (ok one) but it was clear the franchise itself was struggling with what to do with its characters. But regardless in a somewhat dip in the pixar standard I dont think they've stagnated.

I think to animators the industry is still innovating and thriving because where they are taking leaps and bounds is in design, The Croods may have been weak on story but the development of the characters, how they move and facial expressions its yet again another step up. The opening sequence with them hunting is brilliantly put together set piece, which yes can seem a bit cliched in story and gags, how its put together and designed is innovative and clever.

If anything I'd say mainsteam hollywood has a stagnation in its writing department then anything. There have been a lot of big films in the last few years that have looked fantastic (life of pi) been brilliantly acted (Lincoln) or directed (Argo) but I will say consistently that have all under delivered when it comes to writing.


As for animation there are 2 big studios and 5 smaller but active studios.

Dreamworks has been on top for me these last few years

Disney are delivering quality work but pixar are in a bit of a dry spell. But Disney animation studio I felt stepped up with both Tangled (criminally under rated) and Wreck it Ralph.

Then of the small studios

Blue Sky studios are very hit and miss, if anyone is in stagnation its these guys, there last really great film was Ice Age 3 (which was also the only actually good ice age film)

Illumination entertainment (offshoot of blue sky) I actually dislike for the most part, despicable me was *ok* but the lorax was awful and I have no hope on the despicable me sequel

Then we got Laika and Aardman studios as the two stop motion companies. Both put content out in a less regular schedule for obvious reasons, Laika have delivered in high quality every time. Aardman has slipped up a bit with their last two films

That slip up might have to do with Sony pictures animation, who have yet to make a film that I can admit to outright liking (cloudy with a chance for meatballs came very close) and Aardman films are distributed through them now. (when previously it was with dreamworks)


They are the seven studios who are active the most through out the american animation industry at the moment and between Laika, dreamworks and pixar I dont think there is much in the way of stagnation and the others might hit the rare spark of genius now and then, just dont expect it from illumination entertainment anytime soon.