when worlds collide ( legal question)

peter kern

http://www.slowtwitch.com/Features/When_Worlds_Collide_3441.html

what would happen in Ireland in a case like this ?

tunney

peter kern wrote: »

http://www.slowtwitch.com/Features/When_Worlds_Collide_3441.html

what would happen in Ireland in a case like this ?

Interesting question. From a civil case TI races have 3rd party liability insurance for members (why races on the no fly list should be avoided).

However criminally I don't know. Would be good to know. Might email TI

sconhome

If you listen to the race briefing you are always told to obey the rules of the road and instructions of marshals, Gardai etc.

Would you hit and run from a road accident involving a car you are driving and pedestrian regardless of who is at fault? The same rules apply to bike and pedestrian regardless of open or closed routes.

There is a duty of care to be exhibited by pedestrians and all road users for others but it does not excuse hit and run.

tunney

amphkingwest wrote: »

If you listen to the race briefing you are always told to obey the rules of the road and instructions of marshals, Gardai etc.

Would you hit and run from a road accident involving a car you are driving and pedestrian regardless of who is at fault? The same rules apply to bike and pedestrian regardless of open or closed routes.

There is a duty of care to be exhibited by pedestrians and all road users for others but it does not excuse hit and run.

Say the collision was on the run. If I knocked someone over and said "are you okay?" and they said yes in normal life I would walk on. Same in a race.

If I creamed someone in normal life on the bike and they needed medical attention obviously I'd wait, until the ambulance came and then I'd head on. In a race St John's come to their aid why would I wait longer?

sconhome

tunney wrote: »

Say the collision was on the run. If I knocked someone over and said "are you okay?" and they said yes in normal life I would walk on. Same in a race.

If I creamed someone in normal life on the bike and they needed medical attention obviously I'd wait, until the ambulance came and then I'd head on. In a race St John's come to their aid why would I wait longer?

True, but you would assume if there was attendence by medical then details would be taken. Same occurs in a traffic accident, attendence by Gardai, medical, details exchanged and you may be sent on your way (depending on drink etc if involved obviously)

I'm wondering if the case is being brought by the state for failure to 'stop' at the scene of the accident? or is it a case for damages by the injured party?

tunney

amphkingwest wrote: »

True, but you would assume if there was attendence by medical then details would be taken. Same occurs in a traffic accident, attendence by Gardai, medical, details exchanged and you may be sent on your way (depending on drink etc if involved obviously)

I'm wondering if the case is being brought by the state for failure to 'stop' at the scene of the accident? or is it a case for damages by the injured party?

Details taken - "race number 457". Just like a license plate no?

sconhome

tunney wrote: »

Details taken - "race number 457". Just like a license plate no?

Just like a license plate if you leave the scene of an accident you can be tracked down and charged.

Its a rough position and ambiguous to say the least. Like most legal situations lot of if, ands and buts involved too. Hope TI would have an answer that covers our butts.

Zuppy

My reading would be that the law of the land supercedes the race. So if you are involved in an accident it is your duty to remain at the scene until the Gardai have cleared you to proceed. Unless of course the medical attention is urgent, then if the ambulance wishes to transport, you are not fleeing the scene.

If you are on the run and collide with someone and race off, I am not sure the DPP would go after you for assault and fleeing the scene if you reported it on the finishline (to the Gardai as they are the only ones that count), but a civil case might occur. TI and their legal team would have the answer though.

I read the article and have to say IMCH is not known for being helpful in those cases but thankfully the Switz police are very helpful. No police force would comment on an on going case. The IMG case and social norms are way beyond me commenting on that case.

tunney

I got onto TI:

My question

I don't know if you are the right person for this but if not could you direct my query accordingly

I don't know if you have followed this http://www.slowtwitch.com/Features/When_Worlds_Collide_3441.html

Its got a few people talking. In a TI sanctioned race what is the situation if the event of a collision between a competitor and either a marshal, competitor or spectator. If it was clear that they were receiving medical attention and the athlete continued on, finished the race and then presented to the organisers/authorities as having been in a collision would the athlete be prosecuted for leaving the scene of an accident?

Its not one I have ever heard addressed in any meetings or briefings.

The response:

Hi Dave,

I would advise that if someone were involved in an accident, where another person has been injured, then it would be advisable that all parties stay at the scene of the accident, until the following:-

1. medical attention and/or support has been provided to the injured party and;

2. all parties have exchanged contact details and;

3. the competitor has provided their contact information, race number, name etc to either the race organiser or official race marshall


I hope this helps.

peter kern

Very useful 3 step guidline

mrbungle

tunney wrote: »

I got onto TI:

My question



The response:

And if, lets say, you get hit (like I did), the person continues on and leaves the scene, (finishes the race) and then contact TI and tell them the circumstances about your injuries and damage to your bike and the offenders number, the reply you get is:

Stay at the scene, call the guards, if you want to claim for damage of your bike the excess is €500 only if the guy that hit you admits liability for the accident.

In other words, if you have an 'incidental' accident where you get bashed and your bike busted, you have zero comeback.

Beware of the TI insurance comfort blanket, it does not exist unless you've witnesses and an admission of liability from the offender.

ps: photographic evidence in the local rag, in colour, of injuries to the offender during the run, that wiped me out, all to amounts to natin.

Maybe I'm off the point, but while the conversation is going, its something to bear in mind with the race season fast approaching and people racing locally and overseas.

mrbungle

From TI when I inquired:

(TI maintained on the phone that if the guy that hit me didn't admit liabilty for the crash then the claim and issue was going nowhere).

Following on from our recent correspondence, I have been in contact with the competitor who you were involved in the accident with. After speaking to him about this, while he remembers both of you involved in an accident together, he stated that he cannot recall the details of how it happened or who is at fault. He indicated that he didn’t know of any witnesses that saw the accident. I have also been in contact with our insurers and they have confirmed to me that you are not covered for personal insurance under the TI insurance cover you have (which is third party cover only). This means you are covered for damage you cause to another person or third party property as outlined in the insurance policy I sent to you and on our website. If you wish to discuss this matter further, I would suggest that you contact our insurers directly. Their contact details are as follows:-

tunney

mrbungle wrote: »

From TI when I inquired:

(TI maintained on the phone that if the guy that hit me didn't admit liabilty for the crash then the claim and issue was going nowhere).

Following on from our recent correspondence, I have been in contact with the competitor who you were involved in the accident with. After speaking to him about this, while he remembers both of you involved in an accident together, he stated that he cannot recall the details of how it happened or who is at fault. He indicated that he didn’t know of any witnesses that saw the accident. I have also been in contact with our insurers and they have confirmed to me that you are not covered for personal insurance under the TI insurance cover you have (which is third party cover only). This means you are covered for damage you cause to another person or third party property as outlined in the insurance policy I sent to you and on our website. If you wish to discuss this matter further, I would suggest that you contact our insurers directly. Their contact details are as follows:-

Sorry I think there is some confusion here. Myself and Peter have been discussing the scenario in which a 3rd party is injured and the civil and criminal ramifications of such.

Incidents involving competitors are a whole different ball game. I was always aware that there was no personal injury/damage insurance cover for competitors.

While unfortunate that you were left out of pocket I don't think any bike racing related event insurance would cover damage to bicycles and personal injury - its just too common place (e.g. JackyBack killing his bike and that ofd seven others in an A4 bike race on Saturday)

I remember being told before (via mass communications from TI) that if people were concerned with the potential for loss of earnings and damage to equipment due to racing that additional insurance should be taken out.

If people are under the impression that the insurance is anything other than 3rd party then TI need to ensure that this message is communicated again.