Cross training with UK armed forces

Miceail22

Hello there,
Im aware that the PDF do send some NCOs over to the British army run Platoon Battle Sergeants Course and some officers have been sent to their equivalent course as well. I also remember reading about a defence forces team going to a UK competition for military medical units in AN Cosantoir. I was just wondering does anyone on this forum think the situation would ever see DF personnel on courses like P Coy or the All Arms Commando Course. I know the latter can have foreign military on it not just exclusively from marines like the Dutch or US. Do you think relations could ever get to that stage?

Not trying to start any arguments about past conflicts or whose better just posting this thread out of curiousity.

ChunkyLover_53

The Defence Forces has its own Battle Sergeants Course just because they have to simulate the calling in of artillery & casevac and don't have the facility to call up a battalion of Ghurkas to do enemy, doesn't mean its any less intense or strenuous on the personnel undergoing the course. Its about testing your organisational, leadership & military skills under pressure in a hostile enviroment.

Most friendly nations militaries extend invitations to each other to undergo various courses that they run, so what your suggesting isn't too far fetched, but probably won't happen en mass or anytime soon.

tac foley

It is unlikely that the PDF will ever have a participant on P Company as the PDF does not have an airborne regiment. However, I would be surprised if ARW had not had a few over there at some time or other, just that you'll never actually know about it publicly.

As for the All-Arms RM course, the same possibility exists. However, for the rank and file infantry of the PDF, I doubt it.

tac

Praetorian Saighdiuir

We have an All Arms Standard NCO Course and an Infantry Platoon Sergeants Course. Tough enough tbh.

Miceail22

Thanks for the replies, however I think there has been small bit of confusion. Im not saying our own domestic courses are not tough or up to a high standard just would the possibility ever exist in the future where we could go on something like the All Arms commando course just for the experience of it and what DF personnel could take from it and bring back to their parent units and the organisation itself as a whole. We'll never have the same budget as a unit like the Royal Marines for instance, and what they spend on research and development of the physical training curriculum of its recruits we'll never match for example. Battle fitness is something they put a lot of emphasis on.

It would just be a different perspective on something we do ourselves as a military. Not even to send personnel over en masse even a few who would bring it back at instructor level.

Praetorian Saighdiuir

Miceail22 wrote: »

Thanks for the replies, however I think there has been small bit of confusion. Im not saying our own domestic courses are not tough or up to a high standard just would the possibility ever exist in the future where we could go on something like the All Arms commando course just for the experience of it and what DF personnel could take from it and bring back to their parent units and the organisation itself as a whole. We'll never have the same budget as a unit like the Royal Marines for instance, and what they spend on research and development of the physical training curriculum of its recruits we'll never match for example. Battle fitness is something they put a lot of emphasis on.

It would just be a different perspective on something we do ourselves as a military. Not even to send personnel over en masse even a few who would bring it back at instructor level.

Ah I know what you are saying alright. I should have clarified. AFAIK, our Inf Pl Sgt Cse is broadly based on the Brits course....from experience of Irish troops taking part in their courses....it wouldn't be exactly the same obviously. It's also how our Spec Ops was created, from going to the States, taking part and bringing the knowledge back home.

We have gone on many courses in many countries and brought the knowledge back home. Anything from survival, medical & tactical.

Just on the battle fitness. This is something I have seen the PDF take more seriously in the last number of years. I agree that battle fitness should be paramount in an military but it's not something that was really, really honed in on here. Some units are better organised than others but some let it slip. That is noticebly being rectified. Now, I don't want you to think we are a shower of fat lazy bastards because that is far from the truth.

Yitzhak Rabin

We have sent people over on some of their more strenuous ones too. I know of one NCO who was a student on the Royal Marine Commandos Mountain Recce Course. He topped the course and was invited back as an instructor.

I have experience myself working with the BA forces, and I've found that we measure up very well against them, and a comment I've heard from all quarters is how impressed they are with our lads when we do send students over.

tac foley

Yitzhak Rabin wrote: »

...how impressed they are with our lads when we do send students over.

And why shouldn't they be? After all, you are going to send your best, so that THEY get the best back out of the experience to pass on.

I've never been disappointed with any Irish students that we had in the establishment in which I was CI.

In fact, twenty-four years later, one of them and his son are comng over to see us next month.

tac

Fratton Fred

Yitzhak Rabin wrote: »

We have sent people over on some of their more strenuous ones too. I know of one NCO who was a student on the Royal Marine Commandos Mountain Recce Course. He topped the course and was invited back as an instructor.

That is some accolade. I know two brothers who did that course. Just passing it is an enormous achievement.

Miceail22

Just goes to show, we might not have the same level of funding but we can operate with the best of them

cruasder777

Yitzhak Rabin wrote: »

We have sent people over on some of their more strenuous ones too. I know of one NCO who was a student on the Royal Marine Commandos Mountain Recce Course. He topped the course and was invited back as an instructor.

I have experience myself working with the BA forces, and I've found that we measure up very well against them, and a comment I've heard from all quarters is how impressed they are with our lads when we do send students over.

Instructors in the RMs Mountain leader cadre have to also pass the 12 month Bavarian mountain leader course in the Alps, as do SAS mountain troop soldiers.

I have heard of members of the ARW doing the RM Mountain leader training cadre course.


Check this out (1 min 50 sec), you have to do this before you take the course.

The instructor uses no harness.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n1EH6vkJugs



Heres a series about them, apparently the are a very informal unit.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Aj7B1nDNQ4Q

discus

Informal? As one of them put it a few weeks ago "Unless you've been to jail, you wont be an ML.... most of us are nuts bastards" and he wasn't lying.

I was just wondering does anyone on this forum think the situation would ever see DF personnel on courses like P Coy or the All Arms Commando Course. I know the latter can have foreign military on it not just exclusively from marines like the Dutch or US. Do you think relations could ever get to that stage?

AFAIK any army can ask to have lads on the AACC. Why not as your CO to try get you on it? ****ing awesome course, there's so much learning... and a nice, gentle and relaxing week with the Mountain Leaders too

air assault

The Marine who jumped without any safety line, has serious balls

discus

Wouldn't do it yourself, AA?

cruasder777

discus wrote: »

Wouldn't do it yourself, AA?

Not many people would jump a 15ft gap 270 feet up.

It was one of the original tests to win the Green beret in WW2, 60 mile speed marches in 19 hours were the norm back then to.


Theres footage of them going the same jump in WW2, 4 mins 25 secs

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oU889uwynoI

They also invented the assault course.

cruasder777

Miceail22 wrote: »

Thanks for the replies, however I think there has been small bit of confusion. Im not saying our own domestic courses are not tough or up to a high standard just would the possibility ever exist in the future where we could go on something like the All Arms commando course just for the experience of it and what DF personnel could take from it and bring back to their parent units and the organisation itself as a whole. We'll never have the same budget as a unit like the Royal Marines for instance, and what they spend on research and development of the physical training curriculum of its recruits we'll never match for example. Battle fitness is something they put a lot of emphasis on.

It would just be a different perspective on something we do ourselves as a military. Not even to send personnel over en masse even a few who would bring it back at instructor level.

It costs about 45k to train a commando, there is no point training people to that level if they are never going to use the training, the Irish army does not have an expeditionary force combat role. If Ireland joined NATO then it would be another story.

Miceail22

cruasder777 wrote: »

It costs about 45k to train a commando, there is no point training people to that level if they are never going to use the training, the Irish army does not have an expeditionary force combat role. If Ireland joined NATO then it would be another story.

Why is a significant portion of recruit training based on conventionl warfare tactics? Why do we have artillery regiments? Why do we have the ranger wing when we could just assign the counter terrorist role to the ERU? Don't get me wrong, your point is valid, we dont need designated commando or airbourne units taking up our budget.

You'd have to agree though, we could learn from their experiences in the conflicts of the past 12 years, even going further back to the Falklands. Be it something as fundamental as ensuring comms when on patrol or the challenges of conducting a casevac in a remote environment as two examples. Sending DF personnel on such courses doesnt mean you would have to replicate them exactly when they return at unit level but take whats relevant from them and apply it in future training, exercises etc . . .

Knowledge is no burden to carry, no matter where it comes from.

Morpheus

ERU recieve a certain amount of their training from ARW instructors and ARW run courses.

discus

cruasder777 wrote: »

It costs about 45k to train a commando, there is no point training people to that level if they are never going to use the training, the Irish army does not have an expeditionary force combat role. If Ireland joined NATO then it would be another story.

Errr, where the hhhhhellll are you getting 45k from? This isn't RM basic training, its the All Arms mate. And it's about sharing skills, not only practical benefits.

cruasder777

discus wrote: »

Errr, where the hhhhhellll are you getting 45k from? This isn't RM basic training, its the All Arms mate. And it's about sharing skills, not only practical benefits.

Actually Im out of date it was £50,200 in 2009.

"In 2009 the average cost to train a Royal Marine was £50.2K "



http://www.defenceviewpoints.co.uk/articles-and-analysis/how-much-might-be-done-with-a-hundred-thousand-such-as-these



Cant find a cost for the AACC, either way, cant see them funding it for a number of reasons.

Also how will teaching people on an individual basis commando section attacks, drills and patrolling skills they wont use when they return to the their units benefit anyone ? Also if someone passes the AACC, whats to stop them defecting to the Brits see some overseas action ?

Cross training and a skills exchange on a unit level from both sides would be better.





Heres a nice example of a cross training skills exchange, this would be more effective.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wc5XJUXMqRA

cruasder777

Heres a nice video of the Coldstream Guards cross training with the French army this is the kind of skills exchange we should be doing with the Brits, French etc on a unit level. The French have the largest FIBUA/OBUA/DIBUA training centre in Europe, we should be sending units over there to use this suburb facility.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KuQyHfGdJEI

Miceail22

cruasder777 wrote: »

Actually Im out of date it was £50,200 in 2009.

"In 2009 the average cost to train a Royal Marine was £50.2K "



http://www.defenceviewpoints.co.uk/articles-and-analysis/how-much-might-be-done-with-a-hundred-thousand-such-as-these



Cant find a cost for the AACC, either way, cant see them funding it for a number of reasons.

Also how will teaching people on an individual basis commando section attacks, drills and patrolling skills they wont use when they return to the their units benefit anyone ? Also if someone passes the AACC, whats to stop them defecting to the Brits see some overseas action ?

Cross training and a skills exchange on a unit level from both sides would be better.





Heres a nice example of a cross training skills exchange, this would be more effective.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wc5XJUXMqRA

Your contradicting yourself a bit there, you dont want to send individuals over on a course due to percieved cost but you would send a unit en masse believing it to be a cheaper. I'd love to see things like that happen as it would be hugely beneficial to the organisation as a whole. But bar something like a unit being involved in an overseas training deployment like they did with the Nordic Battlegroup for example now thats highly unlikely.

Also your assuming a great deal there that they wouldnt use it when returned to unit? I've already explained why I think we should conduct cross training in previous posts but I know for a fact the DF would definitely want a return from sending personnel over. I've encountered several officers and NCOs / officers who have done either courses with foreign militaries or trained alongside them, an example for the latter, being training with the Australians while on the East Timor deployment many years ago. He said it was very good and quite enlightening. To a certain extent enjoyable ha

Also if someone passes the AACC, whats to stop them defecting to the Brits see some overseas action ?

I had to laugh a bit at that, I understand the logic to it but Im sure a bit of integrity, pride in the uniform, desire to remain in Ireland even just plain old fashioned loyalty to the DF might stop this. If that was the case there wouldnt be a sniper, recce qualified individual or Ranger left in the DF because your logic is anyone who gets advanced training would just leave in search of ''action''.

We're all entitled to our views and thats what makes a good debate.

cruasder777

Miceail22 wrote: »

Your contradicting yourself a bit there, you dont want to send individuals over on a course due to percieved cost but you would send a unit en masse believing it to be a cheaper. I'd love to see things like that happen as it would be hugely beneficial to the organisation as a whole. But bar something like a unit being involved in an overseas training deployment like they did with the Nordic Battlegroup for example now thats highly unlikely.

Also your assuming a great deal there that they wouldnt use it when returned to unit? I've already explained why I think we should conduct cross training in previous posts but I know for a fact the DF would definitely want a return from sending personnel over. I've encountered several officers and NCOs / officers who have done either courses with foreign militaries or trained alongside them, an example for the latter, being training with the Australians while on the East Timor deployment many years ago. He said it was very good and quite enlightening. To a certain extent enjoyable ha

Also if someone passes the AACC, whats to stop them defecting to the Brits see some overseas action ?

I had to laugh a bit at that, I understand the logic to it but Im sure a bit of integrity, pride in the uniform, desire to remain in Ireland even just plain old fashioned loyalty to the DF might stop this. If that was the case there wouldnt be a sniper, recce qualified individual or Ranger left in the DF because your logic is anyone who gets advanced training would just leave in search of ''action''.

We're all entitled to our views and thats what makes a good debate.

Miceail22 wrote: »

Your contradicting yourself a bit there, you dont want to send individuals over on a course due to percieved cost but you would send a unit en masse believing it to be a cheaper.


......As a unit exchange visit, the only expenses would be getting there.

Alot of the ARW did leave, they went to Iraq to work as contractors and earn alot more money, same with the SAS.

discus

Cant find a cost for the AACC, either way, cant see them funding it for a number of reasons.

Also how will teaching people on an individual basis commando section attacks, drills and patrolling skills they wont use when they return to the their units benefit anyone ?

3 Commando Brigade fund it, because they fund the RM and all the commando trained army units. Why would they not fund the AACC?

Errr, the skills learned on the AACC are not limited to 'attacks skills drills and patrolling', your usual sources "the internet" must be wrong. There's the aspect of drilling in the ability to admin yourself anywhere. There's helicopter drills, fast boating drills, cliff assault as well. These are certainly skills that can be used at any unit.

Also if someone passes the AACC, whats to stop them defecting to the Brits see some overseas action ?

Cross training and a skills exchange on a unit level from both sides would be better.

Errr, they can defect to the brits whenever they want, if they want action. Plenty have done it already.

Cross training only takes place once that there units on both sides briefed and trained in the techniques that their foreign colleagues are using, hence why there can be french on the all arms, and there are army and royal marine lads on the french commando course.