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my friend convicted and fined heavily for jaywalking - to appeal or not to appeal?

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  • 06-03-2013 2:26pm
    #1
    MuffinsDa
    Registered Users Posts: 1,225 ✭✭✭


    A very good friend of mine was hit by a car a while ago while crossing the road at a junction. He firmly believed that the light was in his favour. However, the other party brought independent evidence stating that it was not and as a result He was convicted in district court. He had a barrister with him but he didn't seem to have made much of a difference, in fact it probably made it worse!

    He was fined €550 and €200 on two accounts of breaking road traffic act. Also as a result of this, his solicitors recommends not proceeding with his personal injury claim.

    I have serious concerns over all this. Firstly, my friend was certain that the light was in his favour, and the "independent" witness was 6 cars behind, but also lives on the same road, and is rather friendly with the driver of the car that hit him. Nonetheless, the judge found their version acceptable. The question is how to limit the damage now? Shall he appeal the fine, the conviction, or both? His solicitor recommend no appeal but my friend and I believe firmly that it is way disproportionate. Also, my friend is a foreign national (legally here as a high skilled worker on a green card) and he is very worried that a case like this could seriously affect any citizenship applications down the line.

    Opinions are greatly appreciated. We have solicitors view on this but I want to get as many views as possible before deciding the next step.
    Tagged:


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    #2
    seamus
    Registered Users Posts: 68,317 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    If you're not happy with what your solicitor has to say, then get a second solicitor to give you a second opinion.

    Asking people on the internet who don't know any of the facts of the case to make a judgement based on one side's recollection of the events, will not do you any good.

    If the second solicitor agrees with the first, then recognise that two experienced professionals have given you advice which you should heed even if you don't agree with them.

    Simply not agreeing with your solicitor is not good enough reason to proceed with an appeal, IMO.


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    #3
    P_1
    Registered Users Posts: 14,681 ✭✭✭✭P_1


    Get a new solicitor, I'm no lawyer myself but I can poke significant holes in the 'independant' witnesses theory


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    #4
    MuffinsDa
    Registered Users Posts: 1,225 ✭✭✭MuffinsDa


    Thanks Seamus. I was hoping to get people's views and real life experiences on such cases. He will continue getting legal advice as well!


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    #5
    MuffinsDa
    Registered Users Posts: 1,225 ✭✭✭MuffinsDa


    By the way, another question- if a case is appealed on grounds of fines only, can the fine imposed be increased? Does it ever happen?


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    #6
    amen
    Registered Users Posts: 2,781 ✭✭✭amen


    ianal but if you know the time of the accident would someone not have contacted the county/city council that owns/controls the lights and determined the light sequence at the time of the accident?


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    #7
    MuffinsDa
    Registered Users Posts: 1,225 ✭✭✭MuffinsDa


    great point. although it would be hard to prove exact time at this stage but worth looking into.


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    #8
    voter1983
    Registered Users Posts: 78 ✭✭voter1983


    What exactly is the offence for jaywalking?


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    #9
    MuffinsDa
    Registered Users Posts: 1,225 ✭✭✭MuffinsDa


    sorry maybe I didn't word it properly, I don't have the papers! I think one was for disregarding the traffic light as a pedestrian (which he thinks he didn't!) and the other for entering the road where he shouldn't or something like that!


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    #10
    ResearchWill
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,111 ✭✭✭ResearchWill


    voter1983 wrote: »
    What exactly is the offence for jaywalking?

    http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1997/en/si/0182.html#zzsi182y1997a46

    I think it is now a Class E fine which is max of €500, for first offence. With out any idea of the exact offence or why there was 2 the €550 fine may be excessive. To be honest this story just does not add up.


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    #11
    ResearchWill
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,111 ✭✭✭ResearchWill


    MuffinsDa wrote: »
    sorry maybe I didn't word it properly, I don't have the papers! I think one was for disregarding the traffic light as a pedestrian (which he thinks he didn't!) and the other for entering the road where he shouldn't or something like that!

    It does not add up. Either he crossed at the correct place against a red light or he crossed where there was no crossing they are mutually incompatible. But I do accept that you don't have the summons to hand.


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    #12
    coylemj
    Registered Users Posts: 25,351 ✭✭✭✭coylemj


    Doesn't add up, no way would someone get those fines for a first offence of jay walking. More likely the judge would laugh at the summons and apply the probation act.


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    #13
    ResearchWill
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,111 ✭✭✭ResearchWill


    coylemj wrote: »
    Doesn't add up, no way would someone get those fines for a first offence of jay walking. More likely the judge would laugh at the summons and apply the probation act.

    Totally agree, in fact I have never seen a prosecution for these offences. Not saying they don't happen just saying I never saw one.


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    #14
    Victor
    Registered Users Posts: 78,282 ✭✭✭✭Victor


    That sounds completely disproportionate - what were the two charges?
    ResearchWill wrote: »
    http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1997/en/si/0182.html#zzsi182y1997a46

    I think it is now a Class E fine which is max of €500, for first offence. With out any idea of the exact offence or why there was 2 the €550 fine may be excessive. To be honest this story just does not add up.
    The date of the alleged offence will be quite important as those regulations were revised last year (October?).

    Up to that point, it was difficult to convict a pedestrian as sub-section 2 says "(2) A pedestrian facing a traffic light lamp which shows a red light shall not proceed beyond that light." - of course, the light is on the far side of the road. :pac:


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    #15
    SB2013
    Closed Accounts Posts: 805 ✭✭✭SB2013


    I'd say obstruction of traffic was one of them. Crossing on a red probably the other.


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    #16
    coylemj
    Registered Users Posts: 25,351 ✭✭✭✭coylemj


    SB2013 wrote: »
    I'd say obstruction of traffic was one of them. Crossing on a red probably the other.

    Obstruction (S.98 RTA) is a leap of the imagination on your part but even if that was one of the offences, it falls under the general penalty, no way would a pedestrian be fined a few hundred euros.


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    #17
    SB2013
    Closed Accounts Posts: 805 ✭✭✭SB2013


    coylemj wrote: »
    Obstruction (S.98 RTA) is a leap of the imagination on your part but even if that was one of the offences, it falls under the general penalty, no way would a pedestrian be fined a few hundred euros.

    A leap of imagination? How would walking in front of a row of moving traffic not come under that?


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    #18
    coylemj
    Registered Users Posts: 25,351 ✭✭✭✭coylemj


    SB2013 wrote: »
    A leap of imagination? How would walking in front of a row of moving traffic not come under that?

    Obstructing traffic means you prevent traffic from moving i.e. you block the road and traffic comes to a standstill. Getting run over by a car does not constitute obstruction.

    The offence of obstruction (S.98) is designed to cover the delivery van which stops on a narrow street and blocks the traffic.


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    #19
    MuffinsDa
    Registered Users Posts: 1,225 ✭✭✭MuffinsDa


    AFAIK it wasn't obstruction. I'll get the exact details off him and post it tomorrow but I think one was entering the road where he shouldn't and the other breaking the pedestrian light - or something to that effect.

    We that's the whole story! No previous offense whatsoever. Only this. I think the judge got pissed off that he contested it and it got dragged on to three court sessions!


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    #20
    Victor
    Registered Users Posts: 78,282 ✭✭✭✭Victor


    MuffinsDa wrote: »
    I'll get the exact details off him and post it tomorrow but I think one was entering the road where he shouldn't
    Crossing the road within 15 metres of a pedestrian crossing?

    Surely these two charges should be alternatives - one is at a pedestrian crossing, the other not at a pedestrian crossing.


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    #21
    Del2005
    Registered Users Posts: 18,907 ✭✭✭✭Del2005


    MuffinsDa wrote: »
    A very good friend of mine was hit by a car a while ago while crossing the road at a junction. He firmly believed that the light was in his favour. However, the other party brought independent evidence stating that it was not and as a result He was convicted in district court. He had a barrister with him but he didn't seem to have made much of a difference, in fact it probably made it worse!

    He was fined €550 and €200 on two accounts of breaking road traffic act. Also as a result of this, his solicitors recommends not proceeding with his personal injury claim.

    I have serious concerns over all this. Firstly, my friend was certain that the light was in his favour, and the "independent" witness was 6 cars behind, but also lives on the same road, and is rather friendly with the driver of the car that hit him. Nonetheless, the judge found their version acceptable. The question is how to limit the damage now? Shall he appeal the fine, the conviction, or both? His solicitor recommend no appeal but my friend and I believe firmly that it is way disproportionate. Also, my friend is a foreign national (legally here as a high skilled worker on a green card) and he is very worried that a case like this could seriously affect any citizenship applications down the line.

    Opinions are greatly appreciated. We have solicitors view on this but I want to get as many views as possible before deciding the next step.

    I've been more than 6 cars back and still been able to see the traffic lights. Did your friend look for CCTV cameras that could see the junction?


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    #22
    Victor
    Registered Users Posts: 78,282 ✭✭✭✭Victor


    Del2005 wrote: »
    I've been more than 6 cars back and still been able to see the traffic lights.

    Sure, but you couldn't see the road directly in front of the front car, could you?


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    #23
    Del2005
    Registered Users Posts: 18,907 ✭✭✭✭Del2005


    Victor wrote: »
    Sure, but you couldn't see the road directly in front of the front car, could you?

    All the witness said was that the other person had a green light. That can be seen from 6 cars back, what was on the road doesn't matter as the OP never mentioned that the witness said "It was safe to proceed".


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