Human Resources & Employee issues

micromary

I have a number of part-time employees as we are beginning to start up. Like a number of start-ups I have a contract etc. Mine was 19 pages which I think is excessive despite it dealing with the duration of the company. The HR company helped me with the contract and any initial problems I had.

After a few weeks I asked about the company services and prices & got a list of them back. However no prices were mentioned. As I thought well there are no major issues so far, there is no need to go further. However in late February another employee advised that they had a problem with their contract. I contacted the HR company and they advised that to help me further was €65 per hour plus VAT for any question. I thought that pricewise this should have been dealt with at the start and that if I ask a question that may only last a few minutes then €65 plus VAT is excessive.

I am now confused re the HR situation. I am too small and new to employ a HR manager. Sorry for the rambling thread. I just simply don't know who to turn to or who to trust on this important issue.

DubTony

Mary, many of the issues you'll face with regard to HR can be sorted by checking the relevant legislation, looking up nera.ie (it's not just for employees), or even posting a question here. Theres a strong chance that whatever it might be, there's somebody on this forum has already dealt with it. You'll be given pointers and some very good advice, which is no more than a HR consultant will give you.
€65 is a joke imo; and that 19 page contract ? :eek: Unless it's an employee handbook as well, this seems like overkill to me.

Gloomtastic!

Have you signed an ongoing contract with them? If they haven't supplied you prices until now, it doesn't seem likely.

A quick Google brings up loads of Irish companies offering HR Services so I'd get on to your supplier and ask them for a detailed breakdown of their pricing structure and then use that to negotiate better terms with another company or individual or with your current supplier.

Try not to be intimidated by them and if you're not happy, walk away!

micromary

Thanks for your advice guys. Yep. 19 pages is far too much. For God sake we are only starting up! It is only in the last few weeks that I have realised why there was so much complaints re same. As far as I was concerned they should have been upfront from the beginning re their services & prices etc and not tell me in the middle of a issue that they were dealing with that they wanted money. I am also going on Saturday to the National Business Expo in the RDS and this will be dealing with employment law.

unnameduser

My 2c.

I'd have no issues with using boards.ie for opinions but personally I wouldn't be basing my HR decisions on what I read here. Even reading the particulars of HR legislation online is well and good but I would suggest that HR be looked at as a complete picture.

OP, getting your HR decisions wrong could cost you very dearly. It sounds like you need professional HR advice which is something you will need to pay for.

€65/hr for a professional service such as HR is not expensive by any stretch of the imagination. However it seems you are unhappy with your HR company so perhaps try another one. There will be lots of HR companies/people eager to help.

Best of luck.

RATM

I'd agree with other posters. HR is not rocket science and I say that as someone who has a Masters in it. Employment legislation is relatively straight forward and you don't need to be a lawyer or HR consultant to understand it

If you post the employees problem with the contract up here then chances are we'll be able to solve it or at least outline your various options. If you do then just make sure to provide all of the necessary detail, as you would if you were talking to a HR person.

dbran

Hi

The legislation may not be that complex but HR is all about following correct procedure and properly applying the actual circumstances to these procedures and the relevant legislation. If you get it wrong it can be very costly even if you are fundamentally right in the first place.

For example, I came across a situation where an employee had been caught stealing money and had even admitted it. However because proper procedure was not followed regarding disiplinary action, written warnings etc they were lucky to not to have been brought to the labour court by the employee.

If you are not receiving the proper service from your current HR advisers then you should shop around. I believe that IBEC include a HR as part of the services offered to members. I don't know how much it costs to join them though.

Hope this helps

dbran

dbran

RATM wrote: »

If you post the employees problem with the contract up here then chances are we'll be able to solve it or at least outline your various options. If you do then just make sure to provide all of the necessary detail, as you would if you were talking to a HR person.

Not sure that this is a very good idea as you or the employee could easily be identified.

Clearly an online forum in the public is not the place for this.

dbran

micromary

Good point dbran. I was at the entrepreneur conference yesterday. Highly interesting when it came to HR issues. For example I did not realise that you have to keep CV's for 6 months after they have been received and give reasons why you did not choose someone for a interview or give them the job if you interviewed them. There are a few court cases pending at the moment from applicants who feel they have been discriminated against. Crazy stuff!

DubTony

dbran wrote: »

For example, I came across a situation where an employee had been caught stealing money and had even admitted it. However because proper procedure was not followed regarding disiplinary action, written warnings etc they were lucky to not to have been brought to the labour court by the employee.

Employee wouldn't have a hope in hell in this situation. The dismissal falls under Gross Misconduct and an employee found guilty of that is subject to summary dismissal. Assuming there was evidence to back up the dismissal, an EAT (required first port of call) would likely rule that the dismissal was legal. Best course of action is immediate suspension on full pay, and an investigation. If the evidence is concrete, the investigation need take no longer than a few hours.

For any employer ever finding themselves in this situation, make sure the interview is done with witnesses present (one for each side, although most employees I've caught don't want their own witness - because they're guilty as hell and don't need further embarrassment) and then call the Gardai.

If there's enough evidence to sack a person, there's enough to prosecute.

dbran

DubTony wrote: »

For any employer ever finding themselves in this situation, make sure the interview is done with witnesses present (one for each side, although most employees I've caught don't want their own witness - because they're guilty as hell and don't need further embarrassment) and then call the Gardai.

Perhaps. But it is also all about following the proper procedures.

Even if the person is caught red handed, the employee still has rights and if you do not follow the proper procedures you may be in trouble. The labour court comes down on the side of the employee if there is any doubt or ambiguity.

Also make sure that they are aware that this is going to be a formal official meeting, where disciplinary action may be taken against them including dismissal, that they have rights to a witness, union rep etc.


dbran

micosoft

micromary wrote: »

I have a number of part-time employees as we are beginning to start up. Like a number of start-ups I have a contract etc. Mine was 19 pages which I think is excessive despite it dealing with the duration of the company. The HR company helped me with the contract and any initial problems I had.

After a few weeks I asked about the company services and prices & got a list of them back. However no prices were mentioned. As I thought well there are no major issues so far, there is no need to go further. However in late February another employee advised that they had a problem with their contract. I contacted the HR company and they advised that to help me further was €65 per hour plus VAT for any question. I thought that pricewise this should have been dealt with at the start and that if I ask a question that may only last a few minutes then €65 plus VAT is excessive.

I am now confused re the HR situation. I am too small and new to employ a HR manager. Sorry for the rambling thread. I just simply don't know who to turn to or who to trust on this important issue.

What does the size of the company or age have to do with the contract/manual? You do know the legislation applies equally to a start-up as to a large company? They have given you a catch-all contract to cover all the bases. How do you jump from being charge €65 to hiring a HR manager?

€65 + VAT is cheap for professional advice given the cost of being on the wrong side of an employment case. Those suggesting HR is easy are not in business.

DubTony

micosoft wrote: »

€65 + VAT is cheap for professional advice given the cost of being on the wrong side of an employment case. Those suggesting HR is easy are not in business.

There's an awful lot of nonsense being spoken about how complicated and difficult HR is. It's not. In this case, the OP's contract of employment is too long, and some employees have issues with some part of it. Now the consultant is looking for €65 every time help is needed with the overblown contract. Smacks of extortion to me.

Nice business model though. Provide a complicated product free of charge (one that should be generally quite simple), with a lot of unusual terms and conditions, that will inevitably be queried. Then when the customer raises the issue, inform him of the cost of the service. If this was covered by consumer law it would be illegal. Personally I wouldn't give these sharks any of my money.

Employment contracts should set out terms and conditions, working hours, duties etc., and should then be followed up with an employee handbook that states rules and regulations. Rocket science this ain't. Do it once and keep abreast of legislation through an organisation like ISME or the SFA and you're all set.

unnameduser

DubTony wrote: »

There's an awful lot of nonsense being spoken about how complicated and difficult HR is. It's not. In this case, the OP's contract of employment is too long, and some employees have issues with some part of it. Now the consultant is looking for €65 every time help is needed with the overblown contract. Smacks of extortion to me.

Nice business model though. Provide a complicated product free of charge (one that should be generally quite simple), with a lot of unusual terms and conditions, that will inevitably be queried. Then when the customer raises the issue, inform him of the cost of the service. If this was covered by consumer law it would be illegal. Personally I wouldn't give these sharks any of my money.

Employment contracts should set out terms and conditions, working hours, duties etc., and should then be followed up with an employee handbook that states rules and regulations. Rocket science this ain't. Do it once and keep abreast of legislation through an organisation like ISME or the SFA and you're all set.

My point is that you shouldn't base your hr on free advice on the Internet. Professional advice to suit your situation is important. If a HR issue crops up it can be very expensive if things go wrong.

Obviously in this case the op is being taken for a ride and needs better contracts and better service.

Hr is simple until it goes wrong. Ask anyone who has been f'd over.

at the same time a good hr co. should set you straight at a decent rate.

as I said, it's just my 2c.

DubTony

In the spirit of full disclosure, Mrs. DubTony is a HR manager of many years, but whenever I've had a problem, she threw a book to me and told me to find it in there. In fact, she's helped people on this very forum more often with HR issues than she has helped me. I guess there's some truth in that familiarity breeding contempt phrase. :rolleyes:

I honestly can't see how any of this is complicated. As I said, it's all written down. NERA even has a special page for people starting a new business

http://www.employmentrights.ie/en/informationforemployers/startinganewbusiness/

These guys cover it as well

http://www.citizensinformationboard.ie/publications/providers/booklets/entitlements_employmentrights/publications_entitlements_employmentrights4.html

The amount of information out there is enormous. Now, if you feel you need someone to go through it for you, or you just can't be bothered, that's a different scenario. But I would suggest that every employer know exactly what legislation covers all aspects of his business, or at the very least have people employed who are proficient in the legislation that covers their specific area. A basic grasp of the law will see anyone through. And claiming that you don't have time is a bit lame IMO. It's a necessary part of being in business for yourself. Calling a consultant every time something happens in your business is going to cost a fortune, and if anyone is outsourcing that work, no matter what the price is, I'd suggest they're paying too much.

There are dozens of books on the subject that are specific to Ireland. And as I said, being a member of a business organisation can be worth its weight in gold, and not just from a HR perspective.

And let's stop confusing the HR function with dismissals, suspensions and labour courts. There's a whole lot of HR that never gets that legal. As dbran says above, following proper procedure in a disciplinary scenario is important, but it's also very easy. Personally I've fired more people over the years than I can count. Summary dismissal is my expertise (ok, I'm being flippant), but the only time I ever heard from a rights commissioner was when an employee appealed a first written warning, after "losing money" and was charged with failing to follow written proper procedure with regard to security. I've gone through the procedures from verbal warning all the way to a Third & Final Written Warning over 14 months in a poor performance scenario (yeah, I gave somebody that much time to get their act together).

And while there's a shed load of stuff; maternity leave, bullying, contracts, working hours, JLC agreed rates of pay, overtime, minimum wage etc., they don't all rear their ugly heads at the same time, and handling issues in a calm manner can see things sorted in minutes. There's rarely a need to drag simple HR out over days and weeks.

Anyway, I'll get out of this. I guess I'm a bit too passionate about keeping costs down.

RATM

I'd agree with DubTony here. Like I said before HR isn't rocket science at the end of the day and anyone employing people should have a good grasp of it rather than relying on consultants at every juncture.

I'm also a keen cost watcher and to pay €65 per hour for HR consultancy is just madness IMO, especially as it is highly likely that the OP's problem probably takes all of 10 minutes thought and 5 minutes of typing a recommendation.

I'm not being flippant here, I do realise how companies mess up HR, my sister specialises in employment law and she can list off any number of well known blue chip companies in Ireland who fire people and don't follow the correct procedure. She can even tell you of a top 7 legal firm with over 200 employees who fired not one but two people during their maternity leave. A LEGAL firm who should know the LAW. Unbelievable stuff, the episode cost them €40k per employee in compensation.

When she comes across these cases she can never believe her ears and is just flabbergasted at how dumb some of the people involved in doing the firing have been. As she says herself all the procedures are written in plain english for everyone to see, follow them step by step and you'll be fine. But human nature lets emotions get in the way of firing people and they then don't follow procedure, they get angry and they want people out of there ASAP.

Because they didn't do a simple search of Nera to find out what their responsibilities are they end up paying people like her thousands in legal counsel. She is constantly amazed by this as am I as I have a Masters in HR and to be honest the thing was so simple I was bored out of my tree for the 9 months duration of it. Most of the people in my class were wafflers and I can well see how some of them may be waffling to this day convincing people that their services are worth €65 an hour. But the fact of the matter is they aren't, fools and their money easily parted and all that.

dbran

Hi

I agree with what you re saying about cost watching. It has to be a priority in any business that wants to survive.

I think it really depends on how much you value your own time though.

For example if you charge out your time to customers at say €100 per hour, if it will take you an hour to find and read through the relevant information then clearly it would not make sense to forgo the €100 that you can make doing work in order to save the €65 you would pay to the HR guy. However if you have time on your hands or you have someone who you can trust enough to delegate then maybe it would.

This of course assumes that you get worthwhile advice in the first place and they dont use it just as a gateway to slime more money out of you.

Regards

dbran

RATM

Dbran for sure I agree with what you're saying and you make a good point regards specialistion of labour. But I suppose I just come at it from the perspective that if you can find out something on the web yourself AND have good research skills to ensure that the answers you arrive at are the correct ones then why not take that route.

That's just me by nature though, perhaps not everyone is like myself. To give you an example I am not a mechanically minded person whatsoever but over the last two years I got tired of mechanics charging me €150+ for servicing my car which is essentially a bunch of simple jobs like changing the oil, filter, etc So I am now self taught in simple car maintenance solely by YouTube videos- there are loads of them out there specific to every make of car. For me doing it myself gives me quite a saving over spending out €150 for a mechanic who bumps up the prices of all the parts needed, all of which I buy on ebay for next to nothing. Plus I enjoy a challenge and I enjoy solving problems, be it in my working life or my spare time.

But if my engine blows up or the clutch goes yeah at that point I realise I am out of my depth. In my own opinion the OP has a similar problem, she needs to change a spark plug which is a simple enough job. She can spend the €65 and get a mechanic to do it or she can go and learn it herself so then she has that knowledge forever, thus potentially saving herself €65 several times over.

HR can sometimes be complex, don't get me wrong, there is an attention to detail there that is crucial. But at the same time a majority of answers to any HR question about employee contracts and relations are available with just a little bit of research weather that be through reading books or looking on the web. But at the end of the day it is a matter of different folks, different strokes, some people enjoy learning, knowledge and problem solving whereas others get daunted by it and thus seek the advice of consultants and professionals. Sometimes using professionals is 110% necessary but in my opinion the query the OP had is not one of these occasions. But it is her call which way she wishes to approach these matters at the end of the day.

micromary

To be honest I am not going to take up the €65 for every time I have to ring this HR agency about everything that could also be small and trivial. I just wished that they had been upfront about it. I also understand if an established company gives a 19 page contract out. However as a start up that is a joke, and has led to potential employees being scared up. If we get to staff being made permanent then sure I understand if a long contract needs to be given. I have lost my respect for the agency involved but there is plenty of decent fish in the sea!