Fffff'd up plumbing

Foleyart

Howdy folks, A question to all you plumbing aware people out there. New build 2006 wood pellet burner and underfloor. I recently had to get a plumber in to do some repair work on a leaking pipe. He expressed amazement at the system we had. For starters there is a long loop (apprx 12 ft.) in the shed from the Boiler. There are 2 pumps in the shed, one on the loop and another directly after it. In any other system I have seen there is no such loop. In the house there are another 2 pumps. One on the downstairs manifold and one on the upstairs manifold. There is also another pump under the stairs where the hot water tank is, I suspect it may be to circulate hot water to a distant onsuite bedroom,though that has never appeared to work, but the pump is on intermittently. We are currently getting through at least 7 tonnes of pellets a year, this in spite of the fact that we put in solar panels and turn off the heating from around end of April on. Our ESB bills are astronomical. Any advice on what to do with the system to make it more economical would be appreciated, thanks

Dtp79

Foleyart wrote: »

Howdy folks, A question to all you plumbing aware people out there. New build 2006 wood pellet burner and underfloor. I recently had to get a plumber in to do some repair work on a leaking pipe. He expressed amazement at the system we had. For starters there is a long loop (apprx 12 ft.) in the shed from the Boiler. There are 2 pumps in the shed, one on the loop and another directly after it. In any other system I have seen there is no such loop. In the house there are another 2 pumps. One on the downstairs manifold and one on the upstairs manifold. There is also another pump under the stairs where the hot water tank is, I suspect it may be to circulate hot water to a distant onsuite bedroom,though that has never appeared to work, but the pump is on intermittently. We are currently getting through at least 7 tonnes of pellets a year, this in spite of the fact that we put in solar panels and turn off the heating from around end of April on. Our ESB bills are astronomical. Any advice on what to do with the system to make it more economical would be appreciated, thanks

Would you mind posting pics of this?

Foleyart

Here are some photo's of the loop, the downstairs manifold, and the mystery pump. In loop 1 there is another pump just out of shot to the left.

Dtp79

Foleyart wrote: »

Here are some photo's of the loop, the downstairs manifold, and the mystery pump. In loop 1 there is another pump just out of shot to the left.

Your mystery pump is

Dtp79

Foleyart wrote: »

Here are some photo's of the loop, the downstairs manifold, and the mystery pump. In loop 1 there is another pump just out of shot to the left.

Your mystery pump is probably hot water recirculation. I've never seen that piece before in pic one but It looks like its a pumped circuit and then any other circuits are brought off that with their own pumps. I'd be more alarmed by the system pressure in pic 3. It says 6 bar. Did your plumber not spot that?

Foleyart

Don't have recirculation, as per 1st post I think it is to circulate h water to a distant ensuite but doesnt function properly. Never asked for it either. As to the pressure, the gauge is not working . My question, is there a need for a pumped circuit? there is only one feed off it directly in to the house. It seems to me that it is a sure way for heat loss ??

shane0007

Loop1 is going to a low loss header which would be correct for using larger pumps over a greater distance & for pump over run on a zoned systems.

Foleyart

Hi I appreciate your reply, but I am at a loss in understanding it, in any other system I've seen the heat seems to go directly from source to the mixer at the manifold inhouse. The draw from the shed is less than 20 feet. It would seem to me that the loop is unnecessary and just a source of heat loss. Hot water circulates (Uselessly) there before it is finally utilized in the house where it is needed. What do I gain by it ? Could I save by getting rid of it ?? It is, as are all the others in the system a 60wt pump

shane0007

Think of it as a mini buffer tank. Rather than the boiler short cycling, the low loss header will allow a much more steady demand curve, eliminating or reducing the on/off cycling of the boiler.

TPM

I havent seen them(the header) used in domestic applications before, usually on big oil boilers which suffer a lot more with short cycling due to the difference between the high and low heat demand.

the pump in photo 3 is the circulating pump for the underfloor heating

Foleyart

Thanks for all your replies. The house is only 2200 sq feet, is that buffer really necessary ? would I be as well off to get rid of it? it does seem to me to be a great source of heat loss.

dathi

would you not consider upgrading the insulation on the pipe with some industrial rockwool type insulation you seam to have areas that have no insulation at all

Foleyart

That is surely something to consider, however it doesn't answer the question, would I be better off in the long run just to get rid of it ?

shane0007

TPM wrote: »

I havent seen them(the header) used in domestic applications before

That's all a system link is. It's just a neutral point between different systems. Very usual when you wish to use a larger circulating pump on a system boiler that has a smaller pump installed than what is required.
Another very useful tool for solving poorly designed combined systems with solid fuel, i.e. pitching, air problems, etc.

shane0007

Foleyart wrote: »

That is surely something to consider, however it doesn't answer the question, would I be better off in the long run just to get rid of it ?

Just looked at Loop1 again! What are the 1/2" pipes coming from it going to?

TPM

shane0007 wrote: »

That's all a system link is. It's just a neutral point between different systems. Very usual when you wish to use a larger circulating pump on a system boiler that has a smaller pump installed than what is required.
Another very useful tool for solving poorly designed combined systems with solid fuel, i.e. pitching, air problems, etc.

I was thinking of the headers used on bigger boilers used for the exact reasons you are saying, never even entered my head about the system link.
The likes of the cremin tank (oxyvent) would fall into the same bracket

Foleyart

shane0007 wrote: »

Just looked at Loop1 again! What are the 1/2" pipes coming from it going to?

One is the outlet to the house, and the other is the return, the one with the 1/4 pipe which is the mains into the system.

shane0007

Foleyart wrote: »

One is the outlet to the house, and the other is the return, the one with the 1/4 pipe which is the mains into the system.

Huh? Your house is fed from a 1/2" pipe? Short cycle kingdom!

gifted

house must be fed from steam

JohnnieK

There's two 3/4 pipes there. One going down and one on the side. Your system will run less efficiently with out that low loss header.

The boiler will short cycle more if it's not there. Increase the insulation to 22mm armaflex if you have any heatloss concerns. also insulate the end of the header where the take off's are.

Apart from the auto-filling valve in the "mysterious pump pic" it's a good instal.

shane0007

JohnnieK wrote: »

There's two 3/4 pipes there. One going down and one on the side. Your system will run less efficiently with out that low loss header.

The boiler will short cycle more if it's not there. Increase the insulation to 22mm armaflex if you have any heatloss concerns. also insulate the end of the header where the take off's are.

Apart from the auto-filling valve in the "mysterious pump pic" it's a good instal.

Yes that explains it. It's 1" from the boiler & the 1/2" I thought it was is actually 3/4". Confused when he said there was a 1/4" pipe which is actually 1/2"!

Foleyart

Yeah, sorry about the pipe size mistake, just answering an earlier query. Thanks for your interest and reply's folks, will go ahead with insulation as suggested.:cool: