Gardai Protest...And No motor tax..

MrFrisp

It seems the protest is going a step further,,and some Gardai are now to "use their discretion" in relation to pursuing what they called revenue-gathering offences including those involving motor tax.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2013/0304/371960-croke-park-agreement/

How much of an impact is this going to have I wonder? Both for the Government,and people with no car tax,,or car that's due to be renewed.
.

Paarthurnax

The government could outsource the car tax fines and the Gardai could concentrate on serious crime!!!

aman23

or they could just scrap car tax altogether:D

MrFrisp

Paarthurnax wrote: »

The government could outsource the car tax fines and the Gardai could concentrate on serious crime!!!

Wouldn't that just cost more money though?

Money they are trying to save in the first place.
.

Stheno

MrFrisp wrote: »

Wouldn't that just cost more money though?

Money they are trying to save in the first place.
.

Why can't Shannon do it? Needing to renew my tax is communicated to me by post a month before, and I'd a car recently that was out of tax/off the road for the best part of a year.

I got fairly regular reminders to either tax it, or update as to whether it was still mine.

If they changed the system to SORN and had the ability for Shannon to issue Fixed Penalty notices once a car is a month out of tax, there'd be no need for the cops to be involved?

jupiler_beer

Stheno wrote: »

Why can't Shannon do it? Needing to renew my tax is communicated to me by post a month before, and I'd a car recently that was out of tax/off the road for the best part of a year.

I got fairly regular reminders to either tax it, or update as to whether it was still mine.

If they changed the system to SORN and had the ability for Shannon to issue Fixed Penalty notices once a car is a month out of tax, there'd be no need for the cops to be involved?

hold on a minute, you don't expect our government to think logically do you,

though I doubt the civil servants would take on this additional duty

Stheno

jupiler_beer wrote: »

hold on a minute, you don't expect our government to think logically do you,

though I doubt the civil servants would take on this additional duty

In relation to thinking logically you've a point.

It would be incredibly easy to implement, rather than having their computers auto-generate the "your car is not taxed" letters, simply send the details to the garda office in tipp who issue fixed penalties and have them generate them, it could actually be completely automated, with not a huge amount of effort.

challengemaster

MrFrisp wrote: »

It seems the protest is going a step further,,and some Gardai are now to "use their discretion" in relation to pursuing what they called revenue-gathering offences including those involving motor tax.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2013/0304/371960-croke-park-agreement/

How much of an impact is this going to have I wonder? Both for the Government,and people with no car tax,,or car that's due to be renewed.
.

In all fairness, how is that any different from any other day apart from it's been officially said and put in the news. Gardaí are already quite liberal with "using their discretion" as to what offenses they do and don't pursue.

Not going to make a blind bit of difference. Anyone that pays their tax on time every time will continue to do the same, and anyone that dodges their tax will continue to do the same.

starviewadams

Few mates are Guards,and they generally let tax and NCT slide anyways,unless the person they stop is a known gouger.Usual warning to get it sorted because Traffic Corps will do them for both if they happen to get stopped by them.

jupiler_beer

Stheno wrote: »

In relation to thinking logically you've a point.

It would be incredibly easy to implement, rather than having their computers auto-generate the "your car is not taxed" letters, simply send the details to the garda office in tipp who issue fixed penalties and have them generate them, it could actually be completely automated, with not a huge amount of effort.

Totally and build in a process to facilitate anyone who declares a car off the road. I believe all toll roads should be automated like the M50 and if the reg is picked up on these tolls a severe fine for no tax. I like to see our government implement less labour intensive processes. Also but off topic drivers should be required to take 1hr knowledge awareness every 2yrs or 5 on driving skills, use of indicators, roundabouts, lanes etc this would not be tested on.

CiniO

Stheno wrote: »

Why can't Shannon do it? Needing to renew my tax is communicated to me by post a month before, and I'd a car recently that was out of tax/off the road for the best part of a year.

I got fairly regular reminders to either tax it, or update as to whether it was still mine.

If they changed the system to SORN and had the ability for Shannon to issue Fixed Penalty notices once a car is a month out of tax, there'd be no need for the cops to be involved?

I think you missed something.
If there was no cops involved, then anyone could SORN the car, and keep driving.

You would still need the same amount of roadchecks to find people driving SORNed cars, as you need to find people driving without motortax.

I find idea of SORN a bit nonsense.
Why complicate the system with introducing more paperwork (SORN) instead of just starting to enforce the current regulations with motortax.
You have tax - OK
You don't - heavy fine.

Why do we need anything more than that?


Obviously I'd be in favour of scrapping motortax at all, but until it's still in force, I can't see a difference between detecting people driving untaxed cars to people driving SORNed cars. The same amount of job to be done for detecting forces. While SORN would be only inconvenience to regular people, and wouldn't help anything.

CiniO

Paarthurnax wrote: »

The government could outsource the car tax fines and the Gardai could concentrate on serious crime!!!

And then we would pay the tax, mostly just to cover the cost of detecting people who evade this tax.

Better to scrap it at all.
Why don't we include motortax in our income tax?

digger58

Why not put "Road Tax" on the fuel? It's official name is "Road Fund Licence Duty" ie to help maintain the roads, we all know thats not happening so why pretend. Put it on the fuel then the more you drive the more you pay, as well as that the looney Greens couldn't complain as the more fuel efficient cars would pay less. At the moment Road Tax is a tax on ownership not on use. A lot of pre 2008 cars are costing more to tax than they are worth. another benefit, unless you rob the fuel you can't avoid paying, all foreign vehicles contribute as well for the "use" of our roads and no more Guards time in court prosecuting for the offence. Reduce the staff in the local authority office as well. I would suggest it's a no brainer then again our politicians don't use brains, what do you think?

CiniO

digger58 wrote: »

Why not put "Road Tax" on the fuel? It's official name is "Road Fund Licence Duty" ie to help maintain the roads, we all know thats not happening so why pretend. Put it on the fuel then the more you drive the more you pay, as well as that the looney Greens couldn't complain as the more fuel efficient cars would pay less. At the moment Road Tax is a tax on ownership not on use. A lot of pre 2008 cars are costing more to tax than they are worth. another benefit, unless you rob the fuel you can't avoid paying, all foreign vehicles contribute as well for the "use" of our roads and no more Guards time in court prosecuting for the offence. Reduce the staff in the local authority office as well. I would suggest it's a no brainer then again our politicians don't use brains, what do you think?

The problem is that there is already a big tax on fuel. So why put more?
Fuel in Ireland is already among of the most expensive in Europe.

Motor tax which we are paying is not spend on roads. It's just goes into one pile of money which government maintains.

I can't understand why vehicle owners are meant to pay tax?
If government needs more money, they should increase income tax.
We all pay motortax anyway - directly or not.
If you have a car - you pay motortax (directly).
If you travel by bus, price of motortax which bus operator had to pay is included in your ticket.
If you take a taxi - the same story.
If you go to grocery to buy vegetables - you still pay motortax, as cost of motortax on truck which delivered the vegetables is included in price of those vegetables.

So if we all pay it anyway, including it in income tax is the most fair way, as the more you earn the more you pay.

unkel

digger58 wrote: »

I would suggest it's a no brainer then again our politicians don't use brains, what do you think?

I would suggest you are right!

It will be hard on some people who do a big commute by car and transportation costs will go up, but overall it is a much fairer system. It costs nothing to implement, it costs nothing to collect the tax and compliance is near 100%. If people don't want to pay the tax, they don't have to.

A perfect tax system!

Stheno

unkel wrote: »

I would suggest you are right!

It will be hard on some people who do a big commute by car and transportation costs will go up, but overall it is a much fairer system. It costs nothing to implement, it costs nothing to collect the tax and compliance is near 100%. If people don't want to pay the tax, they don't have to.

A perfect tax system!

DUH I'd forgotten that option.
Much better idea

kona

Who didn't see this coming? The tax bands are unfair anyways, I MIGHT pay mine next month.

unkel

CiniO wrote: »

The problem is that there is already a big tax on fuel. So why put more?
Fuel in Ireland is already among of the most expensive in Europe.

Not really, petrol prices are about EU(15) average here still. The beauty is that Ireland is an island, the only border is with the North where petrol is already more expensive. A surcharge of say €0.30 per liter is manageable without losing much business to the North

It would bring some nice cars back on the road again. I'd be in a V8 petrol again tomorrow. Bring it on

CiniO

unkel wrote: »

Not really, petrol prices are about EU(15) average here still. The beauty is that Ireland is an island, the only border is with the North where petrol is already more expensive. A surcharge of say €0.30 per liter is manageable without losing much business to the North

It would bring some nice cars back on the road again. I'd be in a V8 petrol again tomorrow. Bring it on

Indeed it would be way better system than current one.
I would benefit as well, as I do big percentage of my mileage abroad.

But I still think, that motorists shouldn't be loaded with taxed unneceserily.
We already have expensive insurance, which additionally is very little regulated by government and therefore insurance companies can expect miracles and give very little to their customers.
We are all expected to keep vehicles roadworthy (which is also costly) and we have NCT to make sure that we do.
And we have very expensive fuel which is loaded with different taxed (most of fuel price are taxes).
We really don't need anything more on top of that.
Cheap and affordable transport is the main key to let economy grow.
By abolishing motor tax, government would make even more money on economy boost (people would spend money saved on something more productive than motortax).

challengemaster

A surcharge of 30c/L in place of motor tax is manageable if it was fixed at 30c for a number of years/indefinitely, and if VAT hikes on fuel are kept to a minimum.

If they tacked on 30c/L as motor tax to current prices then the govt would be getting €1.10-1.20/L in taxes from €1.80/1.90/L cost to consumer. So that's ~62% take in tax without taking into account you have now two separate taxes on fuel which can both be increased at any time in the future. And as we all know, both of them would increase in almost every budget from now until the end of this recession and probably past it. Not long until prices are heading towards €2.50/L

Duiske

Stheno wrote: »

DUH I'd forgotten that option.
Much better idea

Plus, it will lead to increased business for retailers selling push lawnmowers. I'd imagine there would be quite a few who would rather not be taxed for cutting their grass.

unkel

CiniO wrote: »

I still think, that motorists shouldn't be loaded with taxed unneceserily.

Of course, but we have to be realistic. Social welfare costs us way too much and so does the public sector pay / pension bill. Our combined taxes are far too short to cover our outgoings. The only way to solve this is by raising taxes and / or cutting costs. There's no easy way about it.

digger58

unkel wrote: »

I would suggest you are right!

It will be hard on some people who do a big commute by car and transportation costs will go up, but overall it is a much fairer system. It costs nothing to implement, it costs nothing to collect the tax and compliance is near 100%. If people don't want to pay the tax, they don't have to.

A perfect tax system!

I don't see it being any harder on people, at least they only contribute when they buy fuel and its not a big splash out of money every 3/6/12 months rather it's evened out over each fuel purchase. Plus you only pay per use not ownership! Fuel is not going to get any cheaper and we have to live with that, I am suggesting a fairer system that actually cuts out dodging tax and the ancillary prosecution of same which costs us all money. At the moment we have a two tier system, those who could afford a new car pay less and the people who can't are paying through the nose, how fair is that?

MrFrisp

Thanks for the input guys..Some interesting points alright.

Challengemaster...Stop making sensibile answers like on post #8..

You nearly put a stop to the Thread there..:D
.

Del2005

MrFrisp wrote: »

It seems the protest is going a step further,,and some Gardai are now to "use their discretion" in relation to pursuing what they called revenue-gathering offences including those involving motor tax.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2013/0304/371960-croke-park-agreement/

How much of an impact is this going to have I wonder? Both for the Government,and people with no car tax,,or car that's due to be renewed.
.

So in order to protest about pay cuts, which the Goverment has to do as it's not raising enough revenue, they are not going to enforce a law which raises the revenue which pays their wages*

CiniO wrote: »

I think you missed something.
If there was no cops involved, then anyone could SORN the car, and keep driving.

You would still need the same amount of roadchecks to find people driving SORNed cars, as you need to find people driving without motortax.

I find idea of SORN a bit nonsense.
Why complicate the system with introducing more paperwork (SORN) instead of just starting to enforce the current regulations with motortax.
You have tax - OK
You don't - heavy fine.

Why do we need anything more than that?


Obviously I'd be in favour of scrapping motortax at all, but until it's still in force, I can't see a difference between detecting people driving untaxed cars to people driving SORNed cars. The same amount of job to be done for detecting forces. While SORN would be only inconvenience to regular people, and wouldn't help anything.

Any time I've been in the UK I've seen a Tax check. They just have a person stick a camera on side of the road and anyone who passes out of Tax is sent a fine, no need to stop traffic or use Police officers.



* I know Motor Tax is supposed to be for Local Councils, but it all just goes into a central fund. So if Motor Tax doesn't cover local councils they take money from the fund.

corktina

Paarthurnax wrote: »

The government could outsource the car tax fines and the Gardai could concentrate on serious crime!!!

simply send a fine in the post and leave non-payers to prove the car isn't on the road.

CiniO

corktina wrote: »

simply send a fine in the post and leave non-payers to prove the car isn't on the road.

How someone could prove that?

corktina

thats the catch you can't . If you hadn't declared your car was off the road, then you have no excuse for no tax and a fine in the post..

CiniO

corktina wrote: »

thats the catch you can't . If you hadn't declared your car was off the road, then you have no excuse for no tax and a fine in the post..

Yes, but it still doesn't stop people to declare car off the road, and keep driving.

Del2005

CiniO wrote: »

Yes, but it still doesn't stop people to declare car off the road, and keep driving.

|I though I heard that they where going to start using the M50 cameras for fines, they could do the same with other toll booths.

The UK has recently installed ANPR on their CCTV systems. It's not that hard to catch motorists not paying motor tax and there's no need for the Gardai or Police to do it.

triple-M

Stheno wrote: »

Why can't Shannon do it? Needing to renew my tax is communicated to me by post a month before, and I'd a car recently that was out of tax/off the road for the best part of a year.

I got fairly regular reminders to either tax it, or update as to whether it was still mine.

If they changed the system to SORN and had the ability for Shannon to issue Fixed Penalty notices once a car is a month out of tax, there'd be no need for the cops to be involved?

delete that post quick incase the government see it and get any ideas out of it!

Joe 90

unkel wrote: »

Not really, petrol prices are about EU(15) average here still. The beauty is that Ireland is an island, the only border is with the North where petrol is already more expensive. A surcharge of say €0.30 per liter is manageable without losing much business to the North

It would bring some nice cars back on the road again. I'd be in a V8 petrol again tomorrow. Bring it on

Snag is that it is a sad fact that there are more people who would drive a i litre Yaris rather than a 7 Litre Chevy.

CiniO

Del2005 wrote: »

|I though I heard that they where going to start using the M50 cameras for fines, they could do the same with other toll booths.

The UK has recently installed ANPR on their CCTV systems. It's not that hard to catch motorists not paying motor tax and there's no need for the Gardai or Police to do it.

Then people driving without tax would just avoid tolled roads.
But randomly located ANPR would help. F.e integrate them with GoSafe vans.

crusher000

Check point yesterday in Galway checking for Tax, Insurance, NCT etc. so much for the Gardai Protest.

alexlyons

why don't they outsource motor tax collection to this chap?

jupiler_beer

CiniO wrote: »

Then people driving without tax would just avoid tolled roads.
But randomly located ANPR would help. F.e integrate them with GoSafe vans.

Good point, and a better solution than on the tolls. Though i would like the reasons as to why the gov don't pursue adding the tax to the fuel. They have toiled with the idea. Why should i pay less tax than my dad when I do 30k to 40k more travel than my dad.

Supergurrier

I wouldn't use it as an excuse to not have motor tax on my car but with other bills and being on a reduced week it should be reduced across the board as even on my 1.4 it went up almost 50% in the 5 years i had it and fuel went up from 97c to near 1.50 a litre.

Hard times can force even the most honest person into what some people would call a tax dodge

Supergurrier

Supergurrier wrote: »

..........

Hard times can force even the most honest person into what some people would call a tax dodge

ie driving an untaxed car on the road?

Supergurrier

RoverJames wrote: »

ie driving an untaxed car on the road?

Yes exactly my point as well you know.

nice_guy80

http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/gardai-refuse-to-issue-car-tax-fines-224846.html

Gardaí refuse to issue car tax fines
Friday, March 08, 2013
Gardaí will refuse to issue fines for motor tax offences from today as part of a ratcheting up of their pay row with the Government.

*****************
They've just gone way up in my estimation!
Only kidding.
This is kinda serious

Mr. Wong

Nice one!

Atomic Pineapple

There is another thread on this already but Fúckin A!.

Mint Sauce

nice_guy80 wrote: »

http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/gardai-refuse-to-issue-car-tax-fines-224846.html

Gardaí refuse to issue car tax fines
Friday, March 08, 2013
Gardaí will refuse to issue fines for motor tax offences from today as part of a ratcheting up of their pay row with the Government.

*****************
They've just gone way up in my estimation!
Only kidding.
This is kinda serious

Will still need to pay the excess or declare off the road though.

Myrddin

Our members have decided to use their discretion in relation to revenue-gathering offences,” said GRA president John Parker. “That will take effect from Friday, Mar 8.

This discretion has always been used, its only the piss takers that usually get done

Tea 1000

That's me off the hook for a few weeks! My quarterly tax is due but arrears are actually cheaper than paying quarterly!

However, putting my boards.ie hat back on... Shame on me. I am the scum of the planet. All those good people paying their tax which is more expensive blah blah... penalty... blah blah... jail... don't deserve to drive... blah.. etc...

Jordan5372

So what they saying?

If they see a car or pass a car with no tax, there just going to ignore it and not do anything about it?

Chris_Heilong

Jordan5372 wrote: »

So what they saying?

If they see a car or pass a car with no tax, there just going to ignore it and not do anything about it?

Its up to their discression, its the way they have always been really so I wouldn't risk it.

Brabus

A funny thing I noticed a few days ago in my local garda station.

On the counter at the hatch was a pile of blank RF100A Renewal Forms that require the Gardai stamp & signature.

How thoughtful & convenient!!:D

The guards know as well as everyone else whats going on;)

By the way it was non motoring business that I was attending to at the time.:o

Leonard Hofstadter

Any chance they'll use their discretion with speeding offences, and not issue fines or points ?

Not that I condone law-breaking in any way before those on their high horses get all high and mighty over my post.

Marty McFly

Brabus wrote: »

A funny thing I noticed a few days ago in my local garda station.

On the counter at the hatch was a pile of blank RF100A Renewal Forms that require the Gardai stamp & signature.

How thoughtful & convenient!!:D

The guards know as well as everyone else whats going on;)

By the way it was non motoring business that I was attending to at the time.:o

Sure have you ever been in Garda station on the 1st of the month, you get ques akin to good Friday in a off licence full of people all with the same form in there hand waiting to be stamped.

But this protest means nothing, only tonight I drove past a checkpoint cover both sides of a blindsided road with the tow truck there with them.

Tax on fuel is the best way to go imo, although I would say that as I only do 7,000 to 8,000 km a year.