How am I fixed for a sub 4hr marathon

event

I'm currently training for the Limerick marathon on the May bank holiday weekend. Today is 9 weeks to go and 9 weeks since I started training.
In my head, I want to do it in under 4 hours. This is my first one so I have no idea what it will be like.

Ive been running 2 years now, PB for a 10k is 47:15 and for a 5k is 22:05.
I have been doing the Hal Higdon Novice 2 training program and have stuck to it ok.
Below are the times Ive run pretty much.
In each row first is the distance in miles, next is the time, 3rd is the average pace per mile

Week|Tue|Wed|Thur|Sat

1|3m 28:00 9:19|0|3m 26:52 8:56|8m 1:14 9:17
2|3m 27:29 9:09|4m 37:00 9:15|3m 26:23 8:47|9m 1:22 9:09
3|3m 27:29 9:09|5m 43:25 8:40|3m 27:08 9:01|6m 54:43 9:06
4|3m 25:44 8:34|6m 52:06 8:40|3m 26:21 8:46|11m 1:40 9:06
5|3m 26:42 8:53|6m 53:44 8:56|3m 25:04 8:20|12m 1:51 9:15
6|2m 17:53 8:56|3m 27:45 9:14|0|9m 1:24 9:24
7|4m 35:20 8:49|0|4m 34:06 8:31|14m 2:02 8:45
8|4m 33:51 8:27|7m 1:01 8:43|4m 33:15 8:18|15m 2:09 8:38
9|4m 32:40 8:09|7m 58:05 8:17|4m 33:34 8:23|13m 1:46



Up to week 6 I was playing astro on a Monday and Friday but I picked up and injury that week (you can see the times suffered and distance) so Ive quit that since then.
In the first week I skipped Wednesday as I was wrecked
Week 6 I was injured.
Week 7 I was working very late, couldn't get out
Times have picked up after that and I'm running fine.
All runs are done on country roads with a lot of hills.
I know my LSRs on a Saturday should probably be a bit slower, but I just get into a rhytnm and cant slow down

My first half marathon was on Saturday in Carlingford, Time of 1 hr 46 mins.

So my question is, should I be ok for a sub 4 hr marathon if I am able to keep this consistent?

Apologies for the long post, thanks for reading.

Clearlier

You can see nice improvements over the course of your training. You look on course for sub 4hrs and possibly a bit faster particularly if you remain consistent in your training for the next 9 weeks.

rom

The goal of the long runs are to get your body to burn fat at this stage and for this type of program not to practice marathon pace. You are running them the same pace that you are running your shorter runs during the week. I did this for DCM 2011 and hit the wall hard. I have no idea what your LSR pace should be as these times have no effort/HR or whatever to compare them.

You seem to be running all your runs at the same pace (mistake I made also) and this is not how you improve.

Go back to the plan and read the text bit 5-10 times above the table and follow it, ticking off the miles on a per day basis is not the correct way to do the plan but both the miles and how to do them need to be followed. http://www.halhigdon.com/training/51138/Marathon-Novice-2-Training-Program

"Run slow: For experienced marathoners, I recommend that runners do their long runs anywhere from 30 to 90 seconds or more per mile slower than their marathon pace." I would error on the side of caution and go too slow rather than too fast on a long run.
- For DCM 2012 I ran my long runs at about 9min/mile pace and ran 3:18. I could have done them much close to MP (7:24) but it was not the goal of the run. The goal was getting my body to burn fat as fuel and when I sweat a lot I am not doing that.

Training for a marathon is not like training for a piano recital. Trying to replicate the race on your long run is a big no no.

PS I ran my long runs and midweek runs all at the same pace like you (very similar pace) are doing and ended up doing just shy of 4:30 in 2011.

Also your program says that you should be doing easy running on some days and pace (Marathon pace) running on other days.

So in summary follow the plan correctly and you will do well.

Put in the longest race you have done (not goal marathon time) be that 1/2 Mar, 10M into http://www.mcmillanrunning.com/ and it will tell you what your long run pace should be in the "Training paces" tab. Better to go too slow rather than too fast on a long run.

In the 1900's a lot of marathon training plans consisted of running 3 times a week fast about 5-6 each time at approx 10k or 10M pace. Then walking 3 times a week between 25-35k each time. Yes walking . This was to train a persons body to burn fat as fuel.At the time world records and Olympians used these training plans with times sub 3 hours so I hope this explains why you need to take the long run slow.

event

Thanks for the replies folks.

I think I was running the LSR at a higher pace than I should as its always in the back of my head that if Im used to running them at say a pace of 9:30, come marathon day how will I be able to start running at a pace of 9:00 for 26.2 miles.
Will it not come as a complete shock and I wont be able to cope?

rom

event wrote: »

Thanks for the replies folks.

I think I was running the LSR at a higher pace than I should as its always in the back of my head that if Im used to running them at say a pace of 9:30, come marathon day how will I be able to start running at a pace of 9:00 for 26.2 miles.
Will it not come as a complete shock and I wont be able to cope?

It's not how it works. I ran my LSR at 9min/mile but raced at 7:30. You only want to perform on one day. If you are an experienced marathon then you can do marathon paced miles in your LSR but as a novice is it not suggested.

"Will it not come as a complete shock and I wont be able to cope?"
Don't know but I can say for certain that you will hit the wall (run out of glycogen) if you don't train your body to burn fat which is the point of your LSRs.

Cabaal

event wrote: »

Thanks for the replies folks.

I think I was running the LSR at a higher pace than I should as its always in the back of my head that if Im used to running them at say a pace of 9:30, come marathon day how will I be able to start running at a pace of 9:00 for 26.2 miles.
Will it not come as a complete shock and I wont be able to cope?

You'll always run better on a race day, between keeping with a crowd of people and adrenaline it helps.

But as I learned for marathons and you will the important thing is to put the miles in the legs, get your body used to burning fat and once thats done it gets easier and you'll be able to hit what your aiming for.

plodder

Another thing to consider is that when you're training, your legs are under a constant level of stress. So, the target pace will feel hard. If you follow the plan, and in particular taper correctly, and eat the right food the few days before hand, it's amazing how much easier your target pace will feel on the day.

event

thanks all. From having a look at my times etc, i think I'll do the following:

Pace runs at 8:30 per mile
Easy runs at 9:00 per mile
LSRs at 9:30 per mile.

So the long runs will be a minute per mile slower than the pace runs during the week, how does that sound?

rom

Based on your half PB on Sat from http://www.mcmillanrunning.com/ with a goal marathon time of 3:43

Recovery Jogs 9:34 - 10:17
Long Runs 8:32 - 9:49
Easy Runs 8:27 - 9:28

Steady state run 7:56-8:17
Tempo pace 7:37-7:54

I ran all my LSRs at the close to the top pace so you would want to be over 9:30 alright.

event

rom wrote: »

Based on your half PB on Sat from http://www.mcmillanrunning.com/ with a goal marathon time of 3:43

Recovery Jogs 9:34 - 10:17
Long Runs 8:32 - 9:49
Easy Runs 8:27 - 9:28

Steady state run 7:56-8:17
Tempo pace 7:37-7:54

I ran all my LSRs at the close to the top pace so you would want to be over 9:30 alright.

So LSRs = long runs
Normal runs = easy runs
pace runs = ?

Of the fields above

Clearlier

event wrote: »

So LSRs = long runs
Normal runs = easy runs
pace runs = ?

Of the fields above

For a 3:43 marathon (which shouldn't be out of reach) 8:31.

If you're not already doing some kind of core work I'd strongly advise starting to help prevent injuries. It doesn't matter an awful lot so long as it's reasonably varied and targets lots of different muscles.

From the log you posted previously you've made pretty rapid improvements. If you wanted to keep going and continue to improve after Limerick you would do well to get a copy of Advanced Marathoning by Pfitzinger and Douglas. Don't be put off by the word advanced, their schedules start off at 33mpw which you'll be well able for. They also have a couple of core routines included in the book which might be useful if you're short of ideas.

On the going too fast with your LSR's you could try planning to have a bit of energy left after the run, i.e. you could go further if you had to.

Good luck in Limerick and enjoy the day.

cr17

I,m currently training for rotterdam in 6 weeks. Theres so many different plans that out there its confusing. I,m hoping to do 3:30 and have been doing that pace (8:00) for nearly every run i,ve done over last few months,including LSRs. I do some faster but never like to go slower. Its just a mental thing. Planning a 20 miler this weekend. Should i drop back to 8:30 pace ?

ger664

cr17 wrote: »

I,m currently training for rotterdam in 6 weeks. Theres so many different plans that out there its confusing. I,m hoping to do 3:30 and have been doing that pace (8:00) for nearly every run i,ve done over last few months,including LSRs. I do some faster but never like to go slower. Its just a mental thing. Planning a 20 miler this weekend. Should i drop back to 8:30 pace ?

You should drop back to over 9 min/mile.

Walkedit

ger664 wrote: »

You should drop back to over 9 min/mile.

+1 to that
On DCM mentored novice thread last year was lots of talk about this and all sense says you only benefit from LSR at 60-90 secs slower then pmp

Maybe have a read there?

If this is your first, your doing amazing best of luck, and will be a few boardsies there, good to have contacted the wuth some before you go

corny

Sorry for hijacking this thread but is it possible to run too slow in training?

I'm heading for Rotterdam soon and i have have slightly faster PBs than event (1:44 HM) but my training paces are way slower, purposely so. I usually run my LSR's around 10 min/mile and my midweek runs aren't much faster. The reason for this being in the past i've run (;)) into too many injury problems and this time around i'm trying to play it as safe as possible.

Will this inhibit my performance on the day? McMillan reckons i'm good for 3:38 but i'm hoping for closer to 3:50. Realistic given the training speeds?

Walkedit

corny wrote: »

Sorry for hijacking this thread but is it possible to run too slow in training?

I'm height ading for Rotterdam soon and i have have slightly faster PBs than event (1:44 HM) but my training paces are way slower, purposely so. I usually run my LSR's around 10 min/mile and my midweek runs aren't much faster. The reason for this being in the past i've run (;)) into too many injury problems and this time around i'm trying to play it as safe as possible.

Will this inhibit my performance on the day? McMillan reckons i'm good for 3:38 but i'm hoping for closer to 3:50. Realistic given the training speeds?

I'm quite new to it all so you may get a better informed answer But....

Too build up speed needs some speed work, common prob is running all fast while you say you running all slowish!

Any good plan will give you a mix and that's what is required, a good summary I heard was folk don't run easy runs easy enough or hard runs hard enough.

Best not to change too radically so close to goal race but maybe try to include some pmp intervals during weeks runs, the like 3x2 or 2x3 with 5 min recovering or HMP intervals

I'd keep LSR slowish, and once you are not injured in your can always improve PB next time out

event

Week|Tue|Wed|Thur|Sat

1|3m 28:00 9:19|0|3m 26:52 8:56|8m 1:14 9:17
2|3m 27:29 9:09|4m 37:00 9:15|3m 26:23 8:47|9m 1:22 9:09
3|3m 27:29 9:09|5m 43:25 8:40|3m 27:08 9:01|6m 54:43 9:06
4|3m 25:44 8:34|6m 52:06 8:40|3m 26:21 8:46|11m 1:40 9:06
5|3m 26:42 8:53|6m 53:44 8:56|3m 25:04 8:20|12m 1:51 9:15
6|2m 17:53 8:56|3m 27:45 9:14|0|9m 1:24 9:24
7|4m 35:20 8:49|0|4m 34:06 8:31|14m 2:02 8:45
8|4m 33:51 8:27|7m 1:01 8:43|4m 33:15 8:18|15m 2:09 8:38
9|4m 32:40 8:09|7m 58:05 8:17|4m 33:34 8:23|13m 1:46 8:13
10|4m 35:32 8:52|8m 1:07 8:28|4m 35:01 8:44|17m 2:40 9:26
11|5m 44:48 8:57|8m 1:11 8:54|5m 43:44 8:56|18m 2:49 9:26
12|5m 44:19 8:51|8m 1:06 8:19|5m 45:06 9:01|13m 2:02 9:24
13|5m 44:50 8:59|5m 41:35 8:19|5m 44:38 8:55|



So 4 weeks on from the last post, I have slowed down a good bit. LSR's have gone out to close to 9:30.
What I am wondering now, I have 2 large LSRs left, 19 miles this weekend and 20 miles in 2 weeks, so should I do one of them at PMP or keep it at the pace of the last few weeks?

Gavlor

event wrote: »

So 4 weeks on from the last post, I have slowed down a good bit. LSR's have gone out to close to 9:30.
What I am wondering now, I have 2 large LSRs left, 19 miles this weekend and 20 miles in 2 weeks, so should I do one of them at PMP or keep it at the pace of the last few weeks?

I'm running limerick aswell, for last weeks 20 mile lsr I ran 4 easy, 12 pmp and 4 easy. This weeks lsr will be 20 miles @ pmp + 1min. There is no real benefit in running your full lsr at pmp. It takes too long for your legs to recover and it'll interfere with next weeks training.

macinalli

event wrote: »

So 4 weeks on from the last post, I have slowed down a good bit. LSR's have gone out to close to 9:30.
What I am wondering now, I have 2 large LSRs left, 19 miles this weekend and 20 miles in 2 weeks, so should I do one of them at PMP or keep it at the pace of the last few weeks?

Most of the programs that have PMP sessions are very structured and gradually build up the PMP miles. If you haven't been doing them up to now, then I would say that you definitely shouldn't include them now when you're this close to race day. Whatever plan you're on, I think you should trust it and carry on with it. I see that you haven't done a 20miler in training yet; you should focus on just getting that in the bank. You'll find that it's a tough enough session without any PMP miles!