Comic Book Reading Club 1 - Superman: Red Son (**SPOILERS**)

Thwip!

Mod note: This thread contains numerous spoilers in plaintext - if you haven't read the book, continue reading at your own risk

Please amend the title and post as you wish Fysh (ha, rhymes)

OK gang, I was asked to pick the first book for the Comic Book Reading Club. I believe this will change each month, allowing a week or two for people to buy and read it and then discussion throughout the month as a whole. We encourage anyone to join in as it's a great way to get some insights into a comic book that you may not have thought of yourself, get to meet like minded people and maybe even get further reading recommendations if you liked, say, the particular book's writer or artist etc.

The challenge for me was to choose a book that walked that fine line between
A) being so well known that people wouldnt want to buy it as the plot etc was part of the main mythos i.e. a reprint of Amazing Fantasy #15 - Amazing Spider-Man #5

and

was so obscure that it would be far too difficult for anyone to get a hold of for a reasonable price or in a reasonable amount of time

So with those two limits in mind, for my first choice I have chosen....



Mark Millar's and Dave Johnson's "Superman: Red Son"

This book explores the idea of "What if Superman had landed in Russia instead of the US?"

For anyone who doesnt own a copy already, it should be readily available in most of your local comic stores. I know for definite Subcity Comics have it in stock and I garner that The Big Bang could very well have it too and if not would happily find it for you. It's also in most Easons that I've been in for quite cheap. Failing that here are some links to where you can buy it online though where possible I will encourage you to support your LCS.

Red Son
Red Son
Red Son (Comixology)
Red Son
Red Son

LuvSpudz

Excellent first choice!

Read it years ago but delighted to have a reason to re-read.

Fysh

Ooh, nice choice! I shall dig out my copy and have a re-read over the next few days. Should be a good one to get discussion going

Jayd0g

Looks interesting, will give it a look!

mayordenis

Was right up near the top of reading list so will get on it

Draco

I'll have to go find my copy - been meaning to re-read it for a while.

mayordenis

So I've read it now, this is my first read of it, I feel like I'm in the minority.

It's certainly a fantastic read, and the first time I've ever said that about anything Superman based (I'm sure that's just me being stuck to what I like).

One point for me was that as it became clear how it was going to end i.e. mouth biting the tail, I kinda hoped it would end up that on the 2nd occasion the landing was on U.S. turf and go back to normal, unless the point was that this world was doomed to rinse and repeat forever.

Just using spoiler tags in case there are any more straglers, anyway looking forward to whatever discussion points come up maybe some things I completely glossed over.

Fysh

I've put in an additional spoiler warning in the OP and removed the spoilertags from mayordenis's post as I think it'll just interfere with the flow of conversation. Red Son has been out long enough that IMO anyone who is spoiled by reading this thread has only themself to blame.

I finished re-reading this yesterday and it still holds up pretty well for what must be at least my 7th read of it (probably more). It's been a while since I last read it and I am aware that I noticed a few things this time around that I would've missed previously.

The good:

I liked the scale and scope of the story. I find that too often, stories about superheroes of Superman's power completely ignore all the ways in which our world would be changed by their presence. Red Son revels in these things, making a point of highlighting the changes brought about and for the most part doing it well. A couple of things feel tacked on for me, like Luthor's continual invention of second-rate supervillains who clearly have no real hope of defeating Superman. But for the most part, the regional and temporal scale of the story is to its strengths, and dovetailed very nicely with the whole end-is-the-beginning structure.

For all that, it's also notable that this is a story almost anyone who's ever heard of Superman could read and understand, which is no mean feat. Details are there in the background for fans to spot, but as with titles like League of Extraordinary Gentlemen it's additional texture rather than part of the core story.

Lastly, given the weirdly nasty tone that often permeates Millar's stories (like Wanted, for example) I found this very different - Millar's publicly-acknowledged fondness for the character and its history is evident throughout this story, and it makes it better.

The bad:

There are a couple of Millarisms that I only identified as such on re-reading it after becoming more familiar with his other works - things like Lex Luthor crowbarring the price of his suit into a conversation, or his technological ignorance manifesting in Lex's explanation of Brainiac's self-destruct mechanism, Or the OTT nonsense about how, centuries hence, the best-selling book of all time would be a romance about Lois Lane & Superman. Those are mostly minor details.

There are a couple of deeper flaws, though, like "how did Batman beat Wonder Woman without any obvious advantage over her?" or "Why would Brainiac, supposedly so intelligent, put Luthor where he could damange his ship's power supply?" Initially these seem like small things, but they go against the grain of what we're continually told or shown about these characters and what motivates them, and once you notice them they feel, as with the use of second-rate supervillains in Luthor's anti-Superman schemes, like things that had to be there to serve some other part of the story, and character inconsistencies be damned. I'm familiar with the whole "preparation time beats all" angle of Batman, but it would really have helped to tell us how he subjugated Wonder Woman, or how Luthor outwitted such an otherwise-superior Level 12 intelligence. Without doing so, it's just telling me something about the character in an unconvincing way rather than showing me. That is, in fact, probably the biggest Millarism that I have a problem with, and while I think it has become more pronounced in recent years I think it's a shame that it was already making itself known in what is one of Millar's greatest works.

On an utterly trivial note, the continued use of the phrase "old friend" to describe people who clearly weren't friends (and were at best allies) irked me. I know it's probably meant as some sort of throwback to Golden- or Silver-Age dialogue styles, but it just seemed out of place to me.

Draco

Fysh wrote: »

On an utterly trivial note, the continued use of the phrase "old friend" to describe people who clearly weren't friends (and were at best allies) irked me. I know it's probably meant as some sort of throwback to Golden- or Silver-Age dialogue styles, but it just seemed out of place to me.

I'll have more to say later, but on this - since both of them had chessboards where the other player was a robotic arm I got the impression this was supposed to mean that they'd been playing against each other. This could imply a greater relationship between them than what's shown on page. But I could be reading two much into a pait of panels.

Fysh

Draco wrote: »

I'll have more to say later, but on this - since both of them had chessboards where the other player was a robotic arm I got the impression this was supposed to mean that they'd been playing against each other. This could imply a greater relationship between them than what's shown on page. But I could be reading two much into a pait of panels.

Interesting, I hadn't considered that angle. It'd certainly give a bit of depth to their battle of wits, particularly considering the strop that Luthor throws when the duplicate beats him at chess.

That reminds me of a comment of Millar's I remember reading, about how he'd apparently instructed the artists to draw certain background characters to look like Superman to hint at the idea that he might have been using his super-speed to be in several places at once. It sounds a bit like Millar being Millar to me, because the only example I could spot was the barman who helps out Batman by providing an alibi, but you never know...

Draco

Actually that brings me to another little touch I liked - the 3 Batmen in the Fortress of Solitude wearing costumes from different eras.

Thwip!

I really enjoyed the book after rereading it. I was worried it wouldn't hold up as well but my worries were unfounded. There's so much about this book that I love. The costumes, the little Easter eggs, the overall plot and how it showed a different side to the Man of Steel.
I loved Millar's depiction of Batman. I love the idea of the anti government dark knight and the whole idea of the rumour of them being more than one man. I liked how Millar showed the desperation of Superman that he would risk Wonder Woman's own life. I very much liked the ending that they seem to be caught in an endless cycle where they're manifesting their own misery filled destiny


Negative wise I feel that both Lois and Bizarro were underused (particularly Bizarro, I wanted more time to see him as the menace rather than having to infer it from my own knowledge of Bizarro) and maybe I'm missing something but how did Lois recognise Jimmy when Lex said he shouldnt be familiar to her? There are some Millarisms but still a lot of them work well in context of the story

And glad to see I'm not the only one who noticed the Clark Kentian barman

Thwip!

NEEDS MOAR PEOPLE

CastorTroy

Just finished reading it for the first time.
I liked it more than I thought I would.

I was expecting it to be all America, F Yeah! With Russians just being out and out evil including Superman. But it played out well.

I don't think I've read anything else from Millar to compare to, so can't call out any Millarisms.

One thing that I felt went against everything was the idea that Superman would just turn people who opposed him into slaves. For a guy who seemed to believe in what was right, he should've realised this was wrong.

I agree the villains felt shoehorned in. And how were guys like Metallo supposedly powered if Superman never came from Krypton?

On a kind of sidenote, wasn't this an episode or 2 of the Justice League series?

Draco

I thought the last half of the 3rd book felt as if it was shoehorned in. I don't know if it was because I thought the story had legs and could have easily done with another book and not diluted it (and possibly fixed some of the issues raised above about the villains) or if it just was a case of bad pacing. The circular nature of it all was nice but it did seem clumsy compared to the rest.

Turtyturd

Just finished it there (thesis' stuff got in the way :mad:). It has been a few years since I read it, and had for gotten some pieces of it so it provided some nice surprises in places. Millar kinda reminds me as the Jose Mourinho of the comic world, if he comes into an ongoing title it's gong to be a short stay, but he does so much crazy off the wall sh*t that it's impossible for people to come after him, I think that makes the Elseworlds/ stand alone format perfect for him.

A lot of what I would comment on has already been said by other posters, but I will repeat it. Firstly I agree that one of the great things about this book is that anybody could pick it up and jump right in, something which is missing from regular DC books for me. The costumes are great, especially Superman's and the constant evolution that it undergoes through the different time periods. The exception to this for me is Batman though, the hat just doesn't work. I also think the reveal of the boy of Batman could have been a little less foreshadowed, and would have come as a better surprise to people non familiar with Batman if it was only made known during either his conversation with Pyiotr, or during his fight with Superman. The GL origin works really well, and his backstory over the space of a page or two is great use of that space. And the ending leading back into the beginning is great.

A couple of things did annoy me though, I did enjoy the nods to other characters (such as the names of other GL's, The Flash, and Pete Ross) but Jimmy just seems shoehorned in because he is a character from Superman continuity. Luthor shoots all of his lab staff, and apparently gets a free pass because he is working for the government, I expected Luthor's story to see him become a solitary figure at this point working at bringing Superman down. WHy would Lois remain married to Luthor? I also think that given the time that passed and knowledge he acquires Superman would have found a way to return Kandorgrad to normal size, and it served as little more than to add more impact to the end of the story. Also as has been said, how did Batman capture Wonder Woman, it could be fobbed off that Luthor helped him out but it would have only taken one or two dialogue balloons to clear it up. Who was Superman narrating the story to? I remember initially thinking it was Lois when i first read it, and the story would end with the two of them conducting an interview with a hint of a building relationship between them.

My take on some of the other problems people noticed. Arrogance of characters is a major recurring theme throughout the story, especially among the main characters.

Braniac putting Luthor in a place where he could damage his ship could be put down to the arrogance of him being a level twelve intelligence, and Luthor a level nine, as well as Braniac being focused on the war.

Likewise the subpar villains created by Luthor were never intended to threaten Superman but the create the false idea that this was the best Luthor was capable of and reinforce his idea that he was not threatened.

With it being an Elseworlds tale Metallo didn't have to be powered by Kryptonite, after all Bizarro didn't come from an alternate dimension.

As for Superman turning people into slaves. I got that it was Braniac who did that, yes Superman went along with it but he seemed to be distracted by resizing Stalingrad, and more focused on things happening on a global level. Or maybe it just demonstrated how far he had come from his ideals, because he demonstrates a lot of leniency towards Pyotr in the first issue before eventually turning him into a slave.

Just my take on some of them.

As said at the beginning I really enjoyed the story, I think this is only my second read of it, and the first time around I enjoyed it solely on face value as a comic story, but this time I really enjoyed the themes involved in it such as liberty vs state control....good choice Thwip!.

Thwip!

I agree alot with you Turtyturd, it's one of my favourite books to analyze, for better or worse.

I will be the first to say that there are very few Superman stories I actually enjoy. I get the character, I know a fair bit about him but he just seems to be generally poorly written more often than not. I loved JMS' work with him but that was gonna happen because i love JMS. Millar's Red Son would be my second favourite Supes book and I think Mark's love for the character really shines through and almost endears the reader more to the mythos of Superman. As for Supes being bested by the Kandorgrad comment, I found that clever and yet the way it was written I felt it hinted at the almost schoolyard struggle that exists between Supes and Lex

Turtyturd

Thwip! wrote: »

I agree alot with you Turtyturd, it's one of my favourite books to analyze, for better or worse.

I will be the first to say that there are very few Superman stories I actually enjoy. I get the character, I know a fair bit about him but he just seems to be generally poorly written more often than not. I loved JMS' work with him but that was gonna happen because i love JMS. Millar's Red Son would be my second favourite Supes book and I think Mark's love for the character really shines through and almost endears the reader more to the mythos of Superman. As for Supes being bested by the Kandorgrad comment, I found that clever and yet the way it was written I felt it hinted at the almost schoolyard struggle that exists between Supes and Lex

I am the exact same with regards to Superman. I know it has been said plenty of times but it is just too hard to root for Superman when he is a Superman. It's hard to place him in any great danger. If you look at all the well known characters they have a few classic storylines that readers can name off the top of their head, Superman has Death of Superman, Whatever happened to the man of tomorrow, and Red Son. That's crazy for a character who is a companies flagship character.

And I agree that shrinking Stalingrad was a nice nod to normal continuity, but when Stalin is poisoned Superman learns how find out what is wrong with him in a matter of seconds so given that he had around twenty years I reckon he would have found an answer, although the scene where it is attacked shows that he hadn't really been focused on resolving it. Does it say if Luthor resized it?

johnnysmack

Can someone answer a question for me? At the end its revealed the "EL" family is descended from Lex Luthor. Lex is human so the baby that gets sent back through time and then having super powers doesn't make sense as that baby is also human and not alien. I know they said the future sun had expanded to be a red giant but thats the only possible explanation I can think of.

Jayd0g

Just finished reading this for the first time and really enjoyed it. There's a lot happens over the course of the 3 issues. I found issues 1 & 2 engrossing, but the 3rd kind of tapered off.

I liked the circular ending, with the time travelling descendant of Luther re-enforcing the link between Lex and Superman, while also explaining the existence of this "Elseworld" as a self contained paradox / alternate world.

The nods to the established unvierse, such as the Justice League Daily Planet staff, and Green Lantern Corp with recognisable known holders of the ring were nice. I don't read a lot of DC, but I do watch the animated movies & series so I knew what I was looking at.

Like some of the above posters, I really enjoyed the development of how the world would be impacted by having an individual like Superman living here and his being taken for granted. The lack of life jackets on board ships for one.

I agree that it looks like Superman and Lex were playing chess together all along, with Superman's comment before burning up of "Checkmate" all the more relevant when you accept the assumption.

Good choice for reading material, I look forward to the next selection!

Thwip!

Ok folks New month tomorrow so I'ld like to nominate Turtyturd to choose the next book seeing as I got to pick the first one

Turtyturd

Thwip! wrote: »

Ok folks New month tomorrow so I'ld like to nominate Turtyturd to choose the next book seeing as I got to pick the first one

Cheers Thwip!, appreciate the nomination however I would like to skip this month and maybe take next month for a couple of reasons, firstly I am pretty busy with my thesis' but more importantly one of the original ideas was to pick stuff which might broaden our horizons and I would be likely to choose something fairly mainstream (and from the small thought I gave to it, even something from Millar :P) so for a bit of variety I would nominate Fysh as he would have knowledge of the non mainstream comics available.

Fysh

I'll have a think and see if I can come up with something that's a good balance between non-mainstream and accessible (because lord knows some alternative/indie stuff is far more work than it necessarily should be), and either post a new thread or tap in someone else to pick the next book.

I'm glad this was suggested though, it's been interesting so far and I'm happy to say I've found myself looking at some parts of Red Son in a new light - which is no mean feat considering I've read it at least half a dozen times.

Turtyturd

I dunno if Fysh has made any decision yet (last I remember he was torn between The Crow, and Jimmy Corrigan *avoids mistakenly calling it Billy Corrigan*) but if he hasn't I would like to recommend Spider-man: Blue by Jeph Loeb, and Tim Sale to get another round going.

It was part of the Marvel Ultimate Collection recently, and can be gotten here for 11.50.

If Fysh still wants to go with one of his choices we can push this back to next month.

Fysh

Turtyturd wrote: »

I dunno if Fysh has made any decision yet (last I remember he was torn between The Crow, and Jimmy Corrigan *avoids mistakenly calling it Billy Corrigan*) but if he hasn't I would like to recommend Spider-man: Blue by Jeph Loeb, and Tim Sale to get another round going.

It was part of the Marvel Ultimate Collection recently, and can be gotten here for 11.50.

If Fysh still wants to go with one of his choices we can push this back to next month.

Do you know, with one thing and another I'd forgotten about this?

I say we go with your suggestion instead - I'll get a new thread up later and we'll see how we get on.

blatantrereg

That was awesome. Thanks for the recommendation.

This reminded me of Marvelman:

The world being governed by Superman reminded me a lot of the world being governed by the Marvelman
family

I very much liked the extreme narcissism of Luthor, and how it manifested in the different situation. His killing all his assistants after losing a chess game was great. He misused the word "tenacity" at that point (I think he meant "temerity", which wasn't very supergeniusish of him, but no biggie :pac:

I also really liked the way Superman was being manipulated throughout the story. That and the conflict with Batman reminded me of the Dark Knight Returns.

I'm not knocking the book by pointing out where he might have gotten ideas from. The ideas are built upon very well; not just regurgitated.

I remember not being madly impressed by Millar's early stories in 2000AD way back, as they seemed so derivative. Have been seriously impressed by The Ultimates, Kick Ass stories and to a lesser extent Wanted.

Thwip!

Red Son? or Spider-Man Blue?

If it was Red Son then I'm glad you enjoyed it

blatantrereg

Thwip! wrote: »

Red Son? or Spider-Man Blue?

If it was Red Son then I'm glad you enjoyed it

Yes Red Son Sorry, missed the post about Spiderman Blue.