standard of construction work in Australia

aido79

As an electrician I have seen alot of terrible electrical work in Australia. I've seen stuff that would not be seen as safe or passable in Ireland.It just seems to be the quickest and cheapest way to do a job is used every time with no pride being taken in how it looks. I'm not saying the irish are better tradesmen but I do think we work to a higher standard. I'm just wondering what other tradies think.

Dats_rite

Priory Hall?

rightyabe

Yup have to agree. Done loads of form work and concreting and steel fixing and many a shoddy job I seen. No pride in their work at all, putting pipes in we're ever it suits and just let the plumber worry bout it, 9 out of 10 times it would have to be kango'd out, wasting a day nearly per pipe. They don't listen to the engineers or PM's either, not that they know everything either but at least if the engineer tells you to do it his way then when the sh1t hits the fan it's his own fault. They all like to think their the boss or supervisor too even when they haven't got a clue what their on about, even on basics like setting levels etc.

The Aussie

Well I'm employed full time in Ireland by a company now that is working full time rectifying work done during the great pyramid scheme so not just a Austrailan problem I suggest, we have at least another 12 months lined up with more on the way of trying to get things right.

Be careful what irish " tradesmen" you ask the opinion of, the young fellas who did their time during the 10 years of rubbish did not learn how to finnish to a standard they learnt how to bodge, and as a result are now essentially unemployable, the Blocklayers, Painters, Plasterering trades are especially blighted with chancers who left school early picked up a Brush or what ever and were calling themselves a Blocklayer, Painter, Plasterer by the end of the day, some did a proper apprenticeship but are few and far between.
Then you have the former office workers who entered a trade and within a week were driving a 4X4 towing a trailer and had his own work.

aido79 wrote: »

I'm not saying the irish are better tradesmen but I do think we work to a higher standard. I'm just wondering what other tradies think.

I will get back to this when I'm able to find a Triple Face Palm, I fear 2 just won't cover it

No6

Where I am I find the basic materials they use cheap and nasty, galvanised roofs for fecks sake!! plenty of money spent of the finishes and as for insulation dont get me started!! The builders around me are poor at setting out and levels even though the place is practiclly flat. :eek:

In Ireland I have come across both good and bad builders / trades too, but our basic structural materials were to a much higher standard.

Ed the Builder

Just to clarify Lads

Blocklayer is not a trade!!! and never will be, the correct title is Brick/Stone Layer a qualified time served Bolton street college man like myself can lay any type of brick and stone in any design any format in fact tiling is not a full trade it is part of the brickies trade anything with a joint and mortar we learn to do, these lumpers you speak of can throw concrete blocks together and thats it.Whats happening in OZ is just a replica of what happened here greed and more greed.

The Aussie

Ed the Builder wrote: »

Just to clarify Lads

Blocklayer is not a trade!!! and never will be.

It is still referred to as a Trade in Australia with a Apprenticeship served, even though its competency based i think I recall, it's been a few years since I worked back in Oz.

"Getting your trade certificate in bricklaying

Obtaining a trade certificate in bricklaying begins with an apprenticeship."

http://www.becomeabricklayer.com.au/apprenticeships/get-qualified/getting-your-trade-certificate-in-bricklaying

Ed the Builder wrote: »

Whats happening in OZ is just a replica of what happened here greed and more greed.

Agree 100%, but you end up with some funny stories at the end of it.

Ed the Builder

The Aussie wrote: »

It is still referred to as a Trade in Australia with a Apprenticeship served, even though its competency based i think I recall, it's been a few years since I worked back in Oz.

"Getting your trade certificate in bricklaying

Obtaining a trade certificate in bricklaying begins with an apprenticeship."

http://www.becomeabricklayer.com.au/apprenticeships/get-qualified/getting-your-trade-certificate-in-bricklaying



Agree 100%, but you end up with some funny stories at the end of it.

Yes of course bricklaying is a trade my point exactly I think you have misunderstood me its the blocklaying title that upsets us brickies thanks any way, I have had my skills assesed and have my level three AQF certificate in bricklaying and my PR visa all set to go just waiting to the car!

The Aussie

No I understood, same as old Painters prefer to be called Decorators or calling Renderers in Oz Plasterers, its all semantics really as people still know what you mean.

mandrake04

aido79 wrote: »

As an electrician I have seen alot of terrible electrical work in Australia. I've seen stuff that would not be seen as safe or passable in Ireland.It just seems to be the quickest and cheapest way to do a job is used every time with no pride being taken in how it looks. I'm not saying the irish are better tradesmen but I do think we work to a higher standard. I'm just wondering what other tradies think.

Some of electrical work I have seen people should have do jail for, I once watched Abdul & Mohammed Bodgy Brothers take 2 days to install a 415V Isolation/Bypass box for a UPS in a Public Hospital and totally f**k it up. Had to fix that myself.

Also seen some really unsafe work, wrong diameter core used, wiring not terminated properly. Basic stuff. Mains sockets in bathrooms and lights witches what the story with that.

rightyabe

I stayed in a house for a few weeks and not 1 room was close to square, every wall was off by a good distance, no angle beading on internal corners. Big slopes in nearly every floor. Single glazed windows is a joke, I always thought Argon filled double glazing kept out the heat as well?

mandrake04

One of the houses I lived in was a shocker literally, it was built less than 10 years ago and when it rained really heavily water would piss out of the sizzling light switch in the living room.

The Aussie

mandrake04 wrote: »

Mains sockets in bathrooms and lights witches what the story with that.

Slightly off topic, but I was looking into this a while ago, I found out you can legally do it in the Uk as long as the socket is further than 2.7m away from Zone 1 ( edge of Bath or Shower Tray) and does not include Wash Basins.

In Australia it has been that way for as long as I remember, the smallest distance in Zone 1 is smaller than the UK regulations,

Bathroom zones
For the purpose of wiring regulations, bathrooms are divided into four zones, in accordance with the Australian/New Zealand Wiring Rules (AS/NZS 3000:2007). These are as follows:

Zone 0 - This covers interior area of the base of the bath or shower.

Zone 1 - This zone is divided into three sections, depending on what you have installed:

Bath - For a bathtub, Zone 1 is the vertical area from the inner rim of the bath to the ceiling, or 2.5m above the rim, whichever is lower (this usually encomepasses zone 0 too).
Shower over a bath - The area with a horizontal radius of 1.2m from the fixed plumbing connection of the shower (i.e. 1.2m out from the shower outlet).
Shower - The area with a horizontal radius of 1.2m from the fixed plumbing connection of the shower. The vertical boundaries of this area extend from the floor to the ceiling, or up to 2.5m above the floor, whichever is lower.
Zone 2 - This is the area with a horizontal radius of 0.6m out from Zone 1, and a height of 2.25m above the floor (or to the ceiling, whichever is lower).

Zone 3 - This is the area with a horizontal radius of 2.4m out from Zone 2. The vertical boundaries of this area extend from floor to ceiling or up to 2.5m above the floor, whichever is lower.

aido79

mandrake04 wrote: »

Some of electrical work I have seen people should have do jail for, I once watched Abdul & Mohammed Bodgy Brothers take 2 days to install a 415V Isolation/Bypass box for a UPS in a Public Hospital and totally f**k it up. Had to fix that myself.

Also seen some really unsafe work, wrong diameter core used, wiring not terminated properly. Basic stuff. Mains sockets in bathrooms and lights witches what the story with that.

I've seen lots of stuff like that. To be honest I don't really have a problem with sockets and switches in bathrooms as long as they are on rcd's. I think electric showers in Ireland are probably more dangerous.


Today I saw a guy installing lino after the skirting boards went it. This is just another example of shoddy work.
During the boom in Ireland everyone wanted a piece of the action and there were alot of cowboys chancing their arms at various trades which resulted in sub standard workmanship. However this seems to be almost the norm in Australia.
Companies also seem very reluctant to take on apprentices here which means there will probably always be a skills shortage in Australia.

Itoa

Best one I have seen in OZ is when people's roofs get blown off in a cyclone and they complain that it isnt the first time its happened them. Then they go and put the same type of roof back on the house! Guess whats going to happen in two years from now.....the roof blows off!

Mellor

rightyabe wrote: »

I always thought Argon filled double glazing kept out the heat as well?

No, they don't work the same both ways.
Double/Triple/argon/ etc reduces heat leaving the house via conduction. The majority of heat entering through a window is via radiation.

There is a slight reduction in heat entering through a non single glazed window, but its no where near the extra heat retained. The net effect will be over heating.

I've noticed saddle boards are skipped in favour for making up level differences in the subfloor. Which is a great detail, except nobody bothers with the subfloor part and turns out awful.

The Aussie

Itoa wrote: »

Best one I have seen in OZ is when people's roofs get blown off in a cyclone and they complain that it isnt the first time its happened them. Then they go and put the same type of roof back on the house! Guess whats going to happen in two years from now.....the roof blows off!

It's either a trade off between Roof Tiles and a Corrigated Iron Roof.
-Cement Tiles get smashed in a Hail Storm or Cyclone
-Corrigated Iron get blown off in a Cyclone

Guess which is quicker, cheaper and easier to replace?

rightyabe

The Aussie wrote: »

It's either a trade off between Roof Tiles and a Corrigated Iron Roof.
-Cement Tiles get smashed in a Hail Storm or Cyclone
-Corrigated Iron get blown off in a Cyclone

Guess which is quicker, cheaper and easier to replace?

Don't the yanks use rubber shingles? A very flexible yet durable solution. I think having a 3 foot soffit wouldnt help either.

No6

Mellor wrote: »

No, they don't work the same both ways.
Double/Triple/argon/ etc reduces heat leaving the house via conduction. The majority of heat entering through a window is via radiation.

There is a slight reduction in heat entering through a non single glazed window, but its no where near the extra heat retained. The net effect will be over heating.

I've noticed saddle boards are skipped in favour for making up level differences in the subfloor. Which is a great detail, except nobody bothers with the subfloor part and turns out awful.

Double and triple glazing will reduce the heat coming through the window, up to close to 50% in some cases of triple glazing but as Mellor says there would be a problem with overheading especially if you used the levels of insulation used in Europe. Careful design with the use of orientation, shading, suitable ventilation and airtightness strategy can reduce and or eliminate overheating but you are talking of designing to passive or similar levels which would scare the living daylights out of the average aussie builder IMO. I find some of them have difficulty in doing simple drawings like elevations. :eek:

Over here in WA they don't bother subfloors and screeds, its a concrete slab and thats it and only 100mm thick at that!!

The Aussie

rightyabe wrote: »

Don't the yanks use rubber shingles? A very flexible yet durable solution.

Would not have a clue what the Yanks do to be honest, but if the Shingles are black that would not be to much fun when the temperature get over 40.

rightyabe wrote: »

I think having a 3 foot soffit wouldnt help either.

The 3 foot Eaves keep as much Sun off the Walls during the hottest part of the day, any more and your better going for a Verandah.

No6 wrote: »

Over here in WA they don't bother subfloors and screeds, its a concrete slab and thats it and only 100mm thick at that!!

That has more to do with the type of Loam they are building on more than the standard of Construction.

No6 wrote: »

Careful design with the use of orientation, shading, suitable ventilation and airtightness strategy can reduce and or eliminate overheating but you are talking of designing to passive or similar levels which would scare the living daylights out of the average aussie builder IMO. I find some of them have difficulty in doing simple drawings like elevations. :eek:

Are you not the Bloke who thought a Rifle had to be re-barrelled because of the Coriolis Effect on a Projectile???

No6

The Aussie wrote: »

That has more to do with the type of Loam they are building on more than the standard of Construction.

Where I am they have reactive and highly reactive soils, ie they move when they get wet, so lets make the floor as thin as we can possibley get away with, this has a lot to do with the standrad of construction which in my opinion in WA is geared more toward Big builders making huge profits for poor quality work, yes it will finish up lovely but its whats underneath that I have a problem with

The Aussie wrote: »

Are you not the Bloke who thought a Rifle had to be re-barrelled because of the Coriolis Effect on a Projectile???

just because you dont like what I am saying about what I am seeing here in Australian construction dosn't mean you have to resort to personal digs. Was it not you who told me this in the first place?

The Aussie

No6 wrote: »

Where I am they have reactive and highly reactive soils, ie they move when they get wet, so lets make the floor as thin as we can possibley get away with, this has a lot to do with the standrad of construction which in my opinion in WA is geared more toward Big builders making huge profits for poor quality work, yes it will finish up lovely but its whats underneath that I have a problem with

"Concrete slabs must be installed in accordance with Australian Standard AS 2870. In Western Australia the most common slab thickness is between 85mm and 100mm. This thickness will be stated in the specifications document which forms part of your contractual arrangements with the builder.

Most Perth building sites are flat and sandy so an 85mm slab would be sufficient for single storey residential construction. If you are building a two-storey home and/or in the hills, engineering requirements usually require a 100mm slab, with thickening under internal walls."

So it meets or exceeds your original statement of "100mm of Concrete if that".
Besides its the footings/foundation that its tied down to with steel reinforcing that is what you should be worried about as the Slab is essentially just a Raft

http://www.mbawa.com/custom/mba_directory.asp?SID=33

This might also be a good read for you as we'll.

http://www.concrete.net.au/publications/pdf/Res%20Floors%20Web.pdf

No6 wrote: »

just because you dont like what I am saying about what I am seeing here in Australian construction dosn't mean you have to resort to personal digs.

Petty Dig #1

No6 wrote: »

would scare the living daylights out of the average aussie builder IMO

Petty Dig #2

No6 wrote: »

I find some of them have difficulty in doing simple drawings like elevations.

No6 wrote: »

Was it not you who told me this in the first place?

Does not sound like something I would say.

I love these "We are better than them" whingefest type threads, as its boils down to be a Human Nature thing, not an Australian thing or a Irish thing.
You get the Good, Bad and the Crap in every industry everywhere in the World.
Although this one is particularly funny as my whole job for the past 2 years has been centred around rectifying poor workmanship here in Ireland.

rightyabe

My point about the 3 foot soffit was that in a storm it would catch a lot of wind, I'm aware it's to shade the house as much as possible.

About the rubber shingles, America can get pretty warm to, but I'm aware that American houses have to be geared for extreme cold too so the specs for the roof insulation would be different also. So if Australian specs were improved rubber shingles shouldn't be a problem.

Also for a city like Perth which is quite dry compared to Ireland. I can never understand why so many new house have rising damp issues. If a sprinkler close to the house which only goes on twice a week can cause it, then surely sub standard construction legislation is ultimately at fault.

Mellor

The Aussie wrote: »

"Concrete slabs must be installed in accordance with Australian Standard AS 2870. In Western Australia the most common slab thickness is between 85mm and 100mm. This thickness will be stated in the specifications document which forms part of your contractual arrangements with the builder.

The exactly the point. The industry standard is low. The minimum mark that builders are held to is low.

Petty Dig #1
Petty Dig #2

How were they personal digs? Paranoid much.

I love these "We are better than them" whingefest type threads, as its boils down to be a Human Nature thing, not an Australian thing or a Irish thing.
You get the Good, Bad and the Crap in every industry everywhere in the World.
Although this one is particularly funny as my whole job for the past 2 years has been centred around rectifying poor workmanship here in Ireland.

I love these threads where you assume it's your duty to defend 'stray-ya.

I fully agree its human nature. People will cut corners to make a few quid if they can. But that's not what the above posts were about. There's a fundamental difference between cowboys cutting corners and the minimum industry standard being sub par. Which some of them are.

That's not to say its sub par in all areas of course. There's a couple of the BCA regs that go beyond the Irish regs.

The Aussie

rightyabe wrote: »

Also for a city like Perth which is quite dry compared to Ireland. I can never understand why so many new house have rising damp issues. If a sprinkler close to the house which only goes on twice a week can cause it, then surely sub standard construction legislation is ultimately at fault.

If a new house it should be covered by a 10 year builders warranty, so a claim should be lodged if it is the case.

Mellor wrote: »

The exactly the point. The industry standard is low. The minimum mark that builders are held to is low.

It is exactly that, a Minimum Standard, you can specify you want more/better at the contract stage, or look at something else. Simples.

Mellor wrote: »

How were they personal digs? Paranoid much.

Petty Dig = a generalisation in a attempt to make one feel important.

Mellor wrote: »

I love these threads where you assume it's your duty to defend 'stray-ya.

Someone has to give balance to the whinge fest, imagine the whaling about how good the failed Irish Construction Industry is if someone did not point out how it's essentially crippled to such a stage that its a case of Retrain or Emigrate for the vast majority of its former workers, on the bright side all the good workers still have a job, all the chancers are gone...

rightyabe

The Aussie wrote: »

If a new house it should be covered by a 10 year builders warranty, so a claim should be lodged if it is the case.



It is exactly that, a Minimum Standard, you can specify you want more/better at the contract stage, or look at something else. Simples.



Petty Dig = a generalisation in a attempt to make one feel important.



Someone has to give balance to the whinge fest, imagine the whaling about how good the failed Irish Construction Industry is if someone did not point out how it's essentially crippled to such a stage that its a case of Retrain or Emigrate for the vast majority of its former workers, on the bright side all the good workers still have a job, all the chancers are gone...

And you think pointing out the Irish construction industry is crippled is giving balance to the topic of construction standards? I think it's no where near the point to be honest as the Irish construction industry was not crippled by its buildings standards.

So your point is redundant. It's like blaming the weatherman for the weather.

The Aussie

I know, a glib reply to a glib statement, my bad.

We could start a thread over on After Hours the sump of Boards.ie and wait for the 100's of replies about how good the standards are of people's houses are here in Ireland.

Which neatly dovetails into that its a Human Nature thing

No6

Well I am delighted you are rectifying the poor workmanship you come accross in Ireland, of course if your job is to do that thats pretty much all you are going to see!!

I deal with Austrialian builders every day and have actually come across some who dont know what an elevation is they certainly were unable to draw one when asked for it. The standard of insulation required by the BCA is pathetic in comparison to Ireland, single glazing is still standard in Western Australia at least. These are not digs they are my actual experience here.

Are you now calling us chancers because we have gone? you really cannot help yourself!! if thats not a dig then what is?? A lot of the best workers have also gone, they have been hired by Australian companies because there isn't enough qualified Australians available. The actual reason a lot of people are gone is that the construction industry has declined about 90% from the peak of the boom

If you wish to have a thread on the poor quality of construction in Ireland why don't you head over to the construction section and post there, there plenty of people whom will agree with you. This thread is about the standard of construction in Australia.

The Aussie

No6 wrote: »

Well I am delighted you are rectifying the poor workmanship you come accross in Ireland, of course if your job is to do that thats pretty much all you are going to see!!

I'm delighted as well, I'm on a great Wicket here, the same wages as in 2006 but a free Van with Fuel and a work phone. Happy Days all round.

No6 wrote: »

Are you now calling us chancers because we have gone? you really cannot help yourself!! if thats not a dig then what is??

Nah no dig there, a statement of fact, anyone still here who has weathered the storm thus far that I deal with has been doing something right, the incompetent ones are gone. I don't know where and I don't care to be honest, so yes the chancers are gone.

No6 wrote: »

If you wish to have a thread on the poor quality of construction in Ireland why don't you head over to the construction section and post there

No thanks, that would imply I respect on my behalf.

No6 wrote: »

This thread is about the standard of construction in Australia.

The Thread title is not what the subject in the original post covers, see below.

wrote:

I'm not saying the irish are better tradesmen but I do think we work to a higher standard. I'm just wondering what other tradies think.

And on that point alone I refuse to say "ah gees lads, your a mighty bunch" when everyday it stares me in the face the exact opposite. Whether or not The Construction Industry in Australia is in need of a major shake up to get all the drug fueled bogans out is a totally different topic.

hussey

Mod lads enough. Aussie it doesn't have to be your duty on all threads to defend Australia whenever someone has an issue. The last 10posts have just gone round and round. Either move on or thread closed.

Mellor

The Aussie wrote: »

It is exactly that, a Minimum Standard, you can specify you want more/better at the contract stage, or look at something else. Simples.

My point was that the minimum standard is low. The fact you are saying "it's just the minimum standard" would agree with that. The reality is most jobs don't specify higher.
You haven't actually disagreed with any of my point and just keep ranting about Irish work. It's a sunny Sunday morning and I don't see the point in continuing to go in circles. Slán

The Aussie

hussey wrote: »

Mod lads enough. Aussie it doesn't have to be your duty on all threads to defend Australia whenever someone has an issue. The last 10posts have just gone round and round. Either move on or thread closed.

I think you are giving this thread far to much credit myself right from the very first post of

aido79 wrote: »

I'm not saying the irish are better tradesmen but I do think we work to a higher standard. I'm just wondering what other tradies think.

The next 30 posts spiral downwards from there. The only post I really agree with is this to be honest.

Ed the Builder wrote: »

Whats happening in OZ is just a replica of what happened here.

Just to clarify, I don't feel the need to defend Australia at every turn, if the place was perfect I would be living there now, if you see these two threads.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056888322

And bar two blokes who failed to grasp the concept of this thread, I had a good laugh out of this one

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056702264

Threads like this one and their ilk remind me of conversations with the Polish (the ones who are long gone) who always felt the need to run around telling all and sundry how good they and their fellow countrymen were and how much better Poland was than Ireland In a insecure attempt of self promotion which ultimately ended up with them not even being able to work their way out of a corner. Like this thread here I did not entertain their concept of Master Tradesmen either, so being honest you may as well lock this one up it started in the gutter and worked its way down from there.

No6

Aussie if you could make an actual arguement about the subject then perhaps we would have had an interesting thread, instead you have personally had a go at me, took a swipe at mellor, you also claiming that every Irish person involved in construction who has gone to australia is a chancer and the whole lot of us are brogan's and now to top it all you have a swipe at the polish.... can you spot the problem at all??

The Aussie

No6 wrote: »

Aussie if you could make an actual arguement about the subject then perhaps we would have had an interesting thread, instead you have personally had a go at me, took a swipe at mellor, you also claiming that every Irish person involved in construction who has gone to australia is a chancer and the whole lot of us are boagans and now to top it all you have a swipe at the polish.... can you spot the problem at all??

It should never have been an argument in the first place, it was never going to be a healthy debate either, it was a insecure cry right from the first post, so it was never going to be a interesting thread.

By the way, Boagans are Australian Scumbags, they are the one who are taking Ice on the weekends because its out of their system for any site tests during the week. So unless you are doing Drugs on weekends it does not include "the whole of us".

It did not stop you making sweeping generalisations about Australian Builders, Stones and Glass Houses my friend.

As for the Polish, even the Polish I work with now comment on how embarasing they were. They use words that sounds like whoareyou and coulvar when describing them, so your point is slightly invalid I'm afraid.

Edit: I have covered the Chancers thing previously, see below if you missed it first time around

The Aussie wrote: »

Nah no dig there, a statement of fact, anyone still here who has weathered the storm thus far that I deal with has been doing something right, the incompetent ones are gone. I don't know where and I don't care to be honest, so yes the chancers are gone.

No6

I am making statements about actual australian builders I have met, I am dealing with them every day. I am also refering to the low standards required in the australian regulations which is in my opinon at least 20 years behind Irelands, the nett effect of which will be in 10 to 20 years the vast majority of australian housing stock will require serious retro fitting or demolition to get to any useful modern standard and who will suffer the ordinary australian for the most part!! I think we in Ireland badly missed the boat with our boom and australia is doing the exact same thing and all you can do is insult us for saying so.

The Aussie

Have you even bothered reading the very first post yet???
It is referring to the standard of Workmanship of Irish Tradesmen being superior to that of the Australian Tradesmen, I'm saying that that is a steaming load, the rest is all part of the same slurry truck of insults and broad sweeping generalisations.

hussey

Mod warning ignored - thread closed.