Granite Pavements

MadsL

Is DCC determined to rid Dublin of any surviving 200 year old historic granite paving? Latest insanity - ripping up and replacing perfectly fine kerbs with chinese crap on Clarendon Street.

Before



After



Why is this cultural vandalism acceptable?

TheBandicoot

Because you have to replace 200 year old stones at some point, they get worn out and dangerous. And come on, it's just a pavement stone- not everything old is automatically worthy of conservation.

I find those barriers much more eregerious- they should be pedestrianising streets like that, not putting up more barriers.

MadsL

TheBandicoot wrote: »

Because you have to replace 200 year old stones at some point, they get worn out and dangerous. And come on, it's just a pavement stone- not everything old is automatically worthy of conservation..

How are the ones in the top picture "dangerous" or worn out?

spurious

I'd be asking where the 'old and worn out' slabs are now.

MadsL

spurious wrote: »

I'd be asking where the 'old and worn out' slabs are now.

In a depot, so that engineers and other council employees get to pick out nice granite for the garden path.

No evidence that any cataloging or monitoring is done. Any time DCC are approached about reinstatement they are vague about where the granite has gone.

A Disgrace

I would counter that in a lot of cases the historic paving is actually in BETTER condition than the modern replacements - you only have to look at the remaining patches (particularly outside old pubs - above old cellars - and in front of 'notable' landmarks like Trinity College) to see how well they hold up

In fact, the concrete replacments and Chinese granite ones are poorly laid, prone to slippiness when wet, and dirty. The Leinster Granite traditionally used ages well, weathers well and also looks well.

This sort of stuff would not happen in Edinburgh, Paris or even Amsterdam - all cities that Dublin compares itself to when it looks for UNESCO status. The simple solution IF these kerbs are considered 'dangerous' is to replace them with the perfectly good ones that have been ripped out over the years - but then again as Madsl says, you'd need to get them from certain parties patios first

Mr Simpson

The problem wasn't the 200 year old granite, it was the shoddy lazy attempts at repair works they carry out. Shure we'll just take this slab up and replace it with a bit of tarmac, it'll be grand

MadsL

A Disgrace wrote: »

This sort of stuff would not happen in Edinburgh, Paris or even Amsterdam - all cities that Dublin compares itself to when it looks for UNESCO status.

Dublin failed UNESCO status precisely because of the state of the pavements. Numerous documents and workshops have been held to try and improve what DCC Roads and Traffic do with granite - but still this carry on. I despair really, no-one in DCC cares frankly.

MadsL

MarkMc wrote: »

The problem wasn't the 200 year old granite, it was the shoddy lazy attempts at repair works they carry out. Shure we'll just take this slab up and replace it with a bit of tarmac, it'll be grand

If you walk down Thomas Street they replaced the whole pavement with tarmac in parts of it. Temporary my ass.

Cookie_Monster

I'd be more worried about the additional street furniture and it's implications. to me that implies that people park on the footpath there and the council couldn't be bothered dealing with it anymore and placed all that rubbish to everyone detriment rather than enforce simple laws.

Does the slight dish in the pavement in front of the cedar tree for the drain just end at a normal shape edging block now also?

One of two of the block should have been replaced definitely as they were cracked and sloped but the whole lot? Seems a bit wasteful.

A Disgrace

DCC haven't exactly covered themselves in glory lately. A simple, relatively cheap and positive gesture of filling in as many areas of tarmaced footpath (particularly in tourist sensitve areas like Thomas Street) with old flagstones and kerbs would go a long way to restoring faith.

First stop - the stretch between St Catherines Church and James Gate

MadsL

A Disgrace wrote: »

DCC haven't exactly covered themselves in glory lately. A simple, relatively cheap and positive gesture of filling in as many areas of tarmaced footpath (particularly in tourist sensitve areas like Thomas Street) with old flagstones and kerbs would go a long way to restoring faith.

First stop - the stretch between St Catherines Church and James Gate

That word I bolded. DCC have very little interest in restoring anything.

Kevski

What the hell is the reasoning behind those eyesores? I've never once felt the need for anything like that in the thousands of times that I've walked down that street.

P_1

Just to be a pedantic pain in the backside but isn't that Trinity Street and not Clarendon Street in those photos :pac:

MadsL

P_1 wrote: »

Just to be a pedantic pain in the backside but isn't that Trinity Street and not Clarendon Street in those photos :pac:

We are both wrong. it is St. Andrew's Street.

P_1

MadsL wrote: »

We are both wrong. it is St. Andrew's Street.

Damn, guess its back to the geography lessons for the pair of us so :pac:

Mr Simpson

Kevski wrote: »

What the hell is the reasoning behind those eyesores? I've never once felt the need for anything like that in the thousands of times that I've walked down that street.

Cars kept on parking there with hazards on. Rather than doing any parking enforcement or looking at pedestrianisation, they stuck in some gaudy plastic sticks

MadsL

Kevski wrote: »

What the hell is the reasoning behind those eyesores? I've never once felt the need for anything like that in the thousands of times that I've walked down that street.

They steer the pedestrians away from the illegal sandwich boards.

Kevski

MarkMc wrote: »

Cars kept on parking there with hazards on. Rather than doing any parking enforcement or looking at pedestrianisation, they stuck in some gaudy plastic sticks

DCC are doing a great job of covering that area with gaudy crap these days.

P_1

Surely they could have used something a bit more aesthetic looking instead of the plastics though? All they're going to be good for is giving drunk lads something to practice their drunken Jackie Chan impersonations on.

Mr Simpson

They dont care about aesthetics these days, its all about the €€€'s

P_1

MarkMc wrote: »

They dont care about aesthetics these days, its all about the €€€'s

Sadly it seems so

John_Rambo

P_1 wrote: »

Surely they could have used something a bit more aesthetic looking instead of the plastics though?

They are horrific. There's just no investment going in to the city at the moment.

kylith

I lost all faith in DCC when that fecking monstrosity was built on Dame St. Ye know the one I mean.

listermint

I think the core issue here is with Sub Contractors.

Many of these road works are contracted out to one of the 4-5 major firms in this country and the standard of work is the same throughout.

Haphazard patches done and no inspection or fines followed up with once the works are completed. You see this type of thing in every local authority inc the NRA. You have the likes of Bord Gais, Sierra , KN Networks , UPC whomever digging up national roads or dual carriageways in some places in order to carry out cabling works or redirections and once completed they simply do not restore the area as it was prior to them arriving. Happens on roads happens on pavements.

with the roads it always ends up with subsidence where they cut it up and relayed with inferior quality materials. vehicles are damaged and holes just get deeper and bigger. Roundabouts along the Belgard road are a fine example of the mess that has been made by subcontracted works and lax regulation or inspection.

with pavements where there was once smooth concrete or well laid slabs we are gifted patches of non rolled tarmac which was spade fed into the gap.

It will continue on unabated until the issue is taken far more seriously.

neris

DCC are a bunch of gangsters. Fleece as much as money in rates from business and then put up crap like that outside their doors.

Cienciano

Will they get rid of any cobblestone streets because they're too slippy and bumpy? Jesus wept, they really are bad.

MarkMc wrote: »

The problem wasn't the 200 year old granite, it was the shoddy lazy attempts at repair works they carry out. Shure we'll just take this slab up and replace it with a bit of tarmac, it'll be grand

They actually have paving bricks missing on grafton street. Instead of replacing them with red bricks that were there before, they actually have tarmac. On grafton street. Probably the busiest street with the most tourists in the country.

listermint wrote: »

I think the core issue here is with Sub Contractors.

Many of these road works are contracted out to one of the 4-5 major firms in this country and the standard of work is the same throughout.

Haphazard patches done and no inspection or fines followed up with once the works are completed. You see this type of thing in every local authority inc the NRA. You have the likes of Bord Gais, Sierra , KN Networks , UPC whomever digging up national roads or dual carriageways in some places in order to carry out cabling works or redirections and once completed they simply do not restore the area as it was prior to them arriving. Happens on roads happens on pavements.

with the roads it always ends up with subsidence where they cut it up and relayed with inferior quality materials. vehicles are damaged and holes just get deeper and bigger. Roundabouts along the Belgard road are a fine example of the mess that has been made by subcontracted works and lax regulation or inspection.

with pavements where there was once smooth concrete or well laid slabs we are gifted patches of non rolled tarmac which was spade fed into the gap.

It will continue on unabated until the issue is taken far more seriously.

I worked with Bord Gais before (about 8 years ago) and they didn't do reinstatements. They had 4 contractors (sierra, clg, gmc and someone else), each did an area. If a place wasn't done right and a complaint came in, they definitely follow it up and repair it. But it takes a phonecall from a member of the public, and the public has to know it was bord gais that dug the trench/hole.
Tarmac reinstatement where existing concrete was is a valid complaint and the contractor would have to go back out and sort it. I remember one contractor was really bad, got about 5 times the complaints of the others. Can't remember which one though.

bobin fudge

I would prefer granite any day of the week compared to what they have replaced it with but this country has no money, why pay presumably alot to restore these granite when cheap chinese stones will cost co much less and do the job for now.

Also if people loved the granite as much as everyone here perhaps they wouldnt park on it with their cars and cause damage to them over the years

It is possible DC might restore them when this country is financially able to do so

irlirishkev

Those things on the pavement are stupid.
They've given pedestrians less room now, which considering the area, is fcuking retarded.

MadsL

bobin fudge wrote: »

I would prefer granite any day of the week compared to what they have replaced it with but this country has no money, why pay presumably alot to restore these granite when cheap chinese stones will cost co much less and do the job for now.

Except that doing nothing (the bottom picture is perfectly fine isn't it - what exactly is wrong there?) is the very cheapest option.

No-one is arguing for new expensive wicklow granite to be quarried, shaped and relaid. What is being said is firstly, leave well alone and stop digging up the existing pavement for stupid "improvements" like this. Secondly, if you take up the historic granite, use it to repair somewhere else. Surely that is cheaper than using new imported stone.

As to "no money" DCC seemed to have no problem spending €15k on that flagpole nonsense up at Dublin Castle.

Also if people loved the granite as much as everyone here perhaps they wouldnt park on it with their cars and cause damage to them over the years

The 200 year old stuff is pretty hardto damage. How about enforcing the law instead of turning a blind eye to the lad with the blinkers on.

It is possible DC might restore them when this country is financially able to do so

Restore? They systematically cut holes in historic pavements for water meters during the boom and dug up and butchered the front of College Green and City Hall when they had the money. DCC have no interest in "restoring" anything.

Sure, it was only people making a fuss that has DCC learning that you don't need to pour tar all over cobblestones when you reset them - take a look at the difference between Smithfield and Temple Bar next time you are passing.

That took years of pleading with them to stop pouring tar and do the cobbles the correct way with sand. It is still only half-right the way they do it, but loks better than the mess they made in Temple Bar.

Lapin

kylith wrote: »

I lost all faith in DCC when that fecking monstrosity was built on Dame St. Ye know the one I mean.

There are quite a few.

This ?

This ?

This ?


Or the amount of tatty shopfronts and signage on the street ?

bobin fudge

haha only saying

There has to be a logical reason as to why DCC did this, perhaps email them?

Or do you seriously believe it is for the DCC employees gardens and that they got the go ahead on this costly project for that very reason

You are right, I am no expert on the subject, but Im willing to believe that the granite stones have been damaged to some extent that maybe the amateur can't tell or that they have been removed to prevent more damage or to ne restored

As I say if you are really that wound up, perhaps contact DCC and vent your frustration to them

MadsL

bobin fudge wrote: »

haha only saying

There has to be a logical reason as to why DCC did this, perhaps email them?

Or do you seriously believe it is for the DCC employees gardens and that they got the go ahead on this costly project for that very reason

You are right, I am no expert on the subject, but Im willing to believe that the granite stones have been damaged to some extent that maybe the amateur can't tell or that they have been removed to prevent more damage or to ne restored

As I say if you are really that wound up, perhaps contact DCC and vent your frustration to them

Bobin, with respect, I don't think you really understand the issue. DCC have been contacted repeatedly over literally decades on this issue. To date we have managed to get some limited progress, but it seems to be one step forward, two steps back with DCC Roads and Traffic.

The The 2009 Historic Street Surfaces Study was supposed to identify protections from ham-fisted "repairs". Last year a Public Realm Strategy was worked out that is supposed to respect the integrity of the historic surfaces. This includes a Manual for historic paving, the strategy states that "Historic paving is a fundamental part of the identity of the city centre. However, it is vulnerable to damage and incremental loss. Mapping and maintaining this to agreed standards must form part of the city’s overall approach to the public realm."

Yet once again another botched job on the city's pavements. Sigh.

listermint

bobin fudge wrote: »

haha only saying

There has to be a logical reason as to why DCC did this, perhaps email them?

Or do you seriously believe it is for the DCC employees gardens and that they got the go ahead on this costly project for that very reason

You are right, I am no expert on the subject, but Im willing to believe that the granite stones have been damaged to some extent that maybe the amateur can't tell or that they have been removed to prevent more damage or to ne restored

As I say if you are really that wound up, perhaps contact DCC and vent your frustration to them

Pure insider response, including the thanks. You fail to have a valid explanation for the wide spread practice of such fudges on the architectural heritage of our city.

I dont think anyone is realistically implying that they did the road in such a manner just to grab granite for some employees gardens. Its the haphazard way that any changes are implemented and the lip service to guidelines that are supposedly set out.

You well know that there are glaring examples from the north side of this county all the way to the mountains on the south. In out bing bang bosh nobodys going to notice.

kylith

Lapin wrote: »

There are quite a few.

This ?

This ?

This ?


Or the amount of tatty shopfronts and signage on the street ?

That first one there. Jesus, I didn't know about that plinth is that the 'pedestrian defence' I'd been hearing about? What a piece of schite.

MadsL

kylith wrote: »

That first one there. Jesus, I didn't know about that plinth is that the 'pedestrian defence' I'd been hearing about? What a piece of schite.

No, that is a building.

Cienciano

Lapin wrote: »

There are quite a few.

This ?

This ?

This ?


Or the amount of tatty shopfronts and signage on the street ?

And you forgot to mention their masterpiece here: http://goo.gl/maps/PUo9W
At least there's a few trees covering it now. You'd be doing well to fúck up a city more if you tried.

bobin fudge

listermint wrote: »

Pure insider response, including the thanks. You fail to have a valid explanation for the wide spread practice of such fudges on the architectural heritage of our city.

I dont think anyone is realistically implying that they did the road in such a manner just to grab granite for some employees gardens. Its the haphazard way that any changes are implemented and the lip service to guidelines that are supposedly set out.

You well know that there are glaring examples from the north side of this county all the way to the mountains on the south. In out bing bang bosh nobodys going to notice.

I dont work for DCC, the rest of your drivel isnt really worth replying to.

Mr Simpson

Calm it down folks