Skills you wish graduates had

questioner

Hi all,

I'll be starting an internship with a large agile multinational during the summer and like the title says, I'd like to hear what you would appreciate not having to teach an entry level developer.

ChRoMe

Source control, I don't care what system.

missingtime

questioner wrote: »

Hi all,

I'll be starting an internship with a large agile multinational during the summer and like the title says, I'd like to hear what you would appreciate not having to teach an entry level developer.

The same thing twice

ChRoMe

missingtime wrote: »

The same thing twice

Source control.... heh only kidding.

If you are in Java, some sort of build tool such as Ant or Maven would be great.

I'm not aware of C#'s version (MSBuild?)

Sparks

questioner wrote: »

I'll be starting an internship with a large agile multinational during the summer and like the title says, I'd like to hear what you would appreciate not having to teach an entry level developer.

There are a few...

• Enough cynicism to reflexively roll their eyes when they hear the phrase "large agile multinational"
• Written English. By which I mean the basics - spelling, grammar, punctuation. I wish this was something so basic it didn't deserve its place on the list, I really do...
• Basic manners. You need to be able to work with anybody in a professional workplace, but some people seem to think that that means they don't need to be at least civil, if not polite. And some seem to think that aggression and higher volume is the same thing as having a professional disagreement over a technical issue (and the same people seem to think that someone is keeping score of these things and every point is desperately important).
• The ability to debug systematically. Even just knowing the debugging rules would be a start.
• The ability to drop an approach when it proves to be a bad one and remain emotionally uninvested while not just mentally abandoning the work (these are really tightly coupled skills btw).
• That the degree to which an approach or technique sounds right or feels right or looks right is worth the square root of feck all. Data is how you make judgements, not 25 feet of intestine.

Me, I'm still working on those in myself; all the technical stuff will be fine if those are okay, IMHO.

Aswerty

ChRoMe wrote: »

Source control.... heh only kidding.

If you are in Java, some sort of build tool such as Ant or Maven would be great.

I'm not aware of C#'s version (MSBuild?)

Yeah you have MSBuild and Nant (port of Ant) and I'm sure there's plenty of others.

If you have already got the internship contact the company and ask them straight out what would be good to know before you start. They'd be happy to know you're already preparing for working with them.

Creamy Goodness

Know your way around the command line, the amount of graduates I've seen who don't understand when I would say so "open up a terminal and change directory to /var/...". You don't have to be a command line wizard writing everything on one line but changing directories editing files are a must.

Source control, as chrome said any one of the many as long as you know the core concepts.

Humility, the people who will be menotring will be smart people. Yes they don't know it all nor do you.

Enthusiasm, in learning and bringing things to the table in meetings or 1-to-1's. again this is from seeing grads sit there afraid to ask a question until they are approached.

KonFusion

Creamy Goodness wrote: »

Enthusiasm, in learning and bringing things to the table in meetings or 1-to-1's. again this is from seeing grads sit there afraid to ask a question until they are approached.

I gotta say I think this is the major one. Whatever about knowing source control when they go in, if they're super enthusiastic then it's generally so much easier for them to learn something such as source control, or anything for that matter.

I'd take an enthusiastic, polite intern with good interpersonal skills over one that knows source control like the back of their hand any day.

An intern that comes off as not giving a ****, or one with such bad interpersonal skills that talking to them is a job in itself is just so, so painful.

Sparks

KonFusion wrote: »

I'd take an enthusiastic, polite intern with good interpersonal skills over one that knows source control like the back of their hand any day.

Frankly, I'd nearly take one of those unicorns over quite a few supposedly experienced developers I've worked with over the years. In a cold heartbeat.

An intern that comes off as not giving a ****, or one with such bad interpersonal skills that talking to them is a job in itself is just so, so painful.

And it gets worse when they go from intern to "full-fledged" developer (and honestly, they're probably the only people who think of themselves in such glowing terms).

Merrion

Database design (and query optimisation)... ok maybe that is ambitious. Maybe use of a profiler?

SalteeDog

+1 on enthusiasm and attitude. Don't think any job is 'beneath' you.

robbiezero

missingtime wrote: »

The same thing twice

This is a pretty important one. You will be asking senior guys for help and taking up some of their time. Note down their advice on how to do things and make sure you understand completely what they have told you.

And before you ask any questions research it as much as you can yourself. It's very annoying to be asked questions that a couple of seconds on google could have answered.

CreepingDeath

questioner wrote: »

I'd like to hear what you would appreciate not having to teach an entry level developer.

Writing JUnit tests if you're working in Java.
It's especially important for graduates to test the code they write.

When to use encapsulation as opposed to inheritance.
A few standard design patterns would be nice too.

How to write generic code in handy methods/classes for reuse by others, as opposed to copy 'n' pasting code everywhere.

How to output good logging messages at the right level, especially with Log4J. Allowing someone to read the logs and analyse what happened.

Tim Robbins

SalteeDog wrote: »

+1 on enthusiasm and attitude. Don't think any job is 'beneath' you.

Enthusiasm is the number one things at that age. If you don't have when you are young you will never have it. And a grad's job to cheer the rest of us cynics up.

I always would like a grad to be going to coppers and enjoying their life.

Also, I would like a decent taste in music.

Technical skills are way down the list.

ChRoMe

CreepingDeath wrote: »

How to output good logging messages at the right level, especially with Log4J. Allowing someone to read the logs and analyse what happened.

I've always found that if a developer (at any level) has to spend a day or more on support. Watch how awesome their logging becomes immediately

Tar.Aldarion

Wow grads sounds terrible, however it seems I have most of CreepingDeath's post to work on apart from generic methods.

Sparks

Tar.Aldarion wrote: »

Wow grads sounds terrible

They're grads, they've just started. They're not meant to know everything, and senior people are meant to mentor them so they wind up knowing everything.

It's just that some are so much easier to do that with than others

minotour

the fact that you asked the question shows you are capable of thinking independently and proactivly which i would view as a very good sign. The rest you will learn as you go at your own pace.

be prepared for people who are the smartest people they have ever met

Tar.Aldarion

Sparks wrote: »

They're grads, they've just started. They're not meant to know everything, and senior people are meant to mentor them so they wind up knowing everything.

It's just that some are so much easier to do that with than others

Ah yeah that's absolutely true, I mean about basic manners, grammar, spelling, attitude and so on. I don't think my dissertation would have even been accepted if I had spelled a few things wrong heh. I don't understand when I am proof reading for somebody how they got that far without knowing basic things. I mean the software they are using even points out their mistakes :pac:

GavinFlud

What I've found in my short experience so far is that personality matters, a lot! Never underestimate how far you can get by simply being a nice person who displays a passion for programming.

In terms of technical skills:

• Familiarity with the command line.
• Know you're way around the OS.
• A decent grasp of programming principles (and a language you can display your knowledge with.
• The ability to use Google to search for answers before asking someone.

mark renton

lol - this thread is so funny, all the experienced, and now cynical, developers demanding "enthsiasm" - you better be enthusiastic op, cause your gonna get the crap jobs for a while to come :pac::pac::pac:

if you want to have some real fun, pick out the smug developers, get their code, fix some errors in it or optimize it, and then hand it back to them telling them you fixed it for them do this and you can work with me any day

Sparks

mark renton wrote: »

lol - this thread is so funny, all the experienced, and now cynical, developers demanding "enthsiasm"

There's a reason for that:

do this right and you can work with me any day

FYP
(I've seen too many "optimisations" that just aren't over the last few years...)

jgh_

I don't know about skills I wish they had beyond drive and the ability to learn independently, but I do wish companies would be more enthusiastic about training people to do new things

lemon_remon

SalteeDog wrote: »

+1 on enthusiasm and attitude. Don't think any job is 'beneath' you.

I wouldn't agree with that. As a soon to be graduate I'm not going to fetch your ****ing coffee.... or debug your spaghetti.

CreepingDeath wrote: »

When to use encapsulation as opposed to inheritance.

Do you mean composition? Encapsulation and inheritance are compatible. For example, a private field in a super class is not accessible to a subclass.

TrueDub

lemon_remon wrote: »

I wouldn't agree with that. As a soon to be graduate I'm not going to fetch your ****ing coffee.... or debug your spaghetti.

I don't think he means the first one at all. More that some tasks look mundane and possibly irrelevant, but still need to be done. It's much better to politely ask the purpose of the task (so you're learning), than to bitch that it's not what you joined the company for.

As for debugging spaghetti, well, you're going to be doing that. Hell, I'm a tech team lead with 20 years experience and I still do that. Working with other peoples' code is part of the job, and any code you aren't familiar with can be considered spaghetti. You can always learn something from someone else's code, if it's a what-not-to-do.

As for the general question here, I'd go with humility and enthusiasm. All the other skills can be taught, these can't. The best grads/interns I worked with were ones who came in, got stuck in and learnt. There were others too...

ChRoMe

lemon_remon wrote: »

or debug your spaghetti.

Yes, yes you are.

ChRoMe

mark renton wrote: »

lol - this thread is so funny, all the experienced, and now cynical, developers demanding "enthsiasm" - you better be enthusiastic op, cause your gonna get the crap jobs for a while to come :pac::pac::pac:

if you want to have some real fun, pick out the smug developers, get their code, fix some errors in it or optimize it, and then hand it back to them telling them you fixed it for them do this and you can work with me any day

That is probably some of the worst advice that has ever been posted in this forum, follow it at your peril.

SalteeDog

Certainly you should expect to be treated with respect by everyone you work with but be aware that as a new grad you will be limited in the number of things you can do right now to help your team achieve it's goal. You will be asked to do stuff that you consider yourself over qualified and over-educated for but those things need to get done by someone and your manager will not have time or budget to hire someone else off the street to do them. As a manager I have often asked graduates (as well as much more experienced people) to do tedious and boring jobs ( but I've never asked them to make coffee). Get over it, learn what you can from the task and be willing to step up next time too.

Viper_JB

I wouldn't expect an intern to have anything except open ears and a willingness to learn, I mean interns are free...I'd never expect them to have the knowledge of someone I'd immediately hire into a development role that's unfair on everyone.

Tar.Aldarion

I think he meant more graduate than intern.

ChRoMe wrote: »

That is probably some of the worst advice that has ever been posted in this forum, follow it at your peril.

Fittingly he has been banned from boards for a few days for trolling :pac:

Creamy Goodness

Viper_JB wrote: »

I mean interns are free...

:eek:

Viper_JB

Tar.Aldarion wrote: »

I think he meant more graduate than intern.

I think you're correct, from a graduate aspect though I guess I'd just expect OS knowledge and again a strong desire to learn the rest will come in time.

Sparks

TrueDub wrote: »

I don't think he means the first one at all. More that some tasks look mundane and possibly irrelevant, but still need to be done.

Sadly, a lot (hell, damn near all) grads seem to think that things like "documentation" and "comments" are part of that set of mundane and irrelevant tasks.
Hence the point about wanting them to just get on with it instead of complaining that documenting their code is a waste of time.

(And honestly, I hear just one more person try to convince me that their code is clear enough that it's self-documenting, and I'm going to sit them down and force-feed them their own code from a year back...)

GavinFlud

Viper_JB wrote: »

I mean interns are free...

The good ones aren't.

ChRoMe

GavinFlud wrote: »

The good ones aren't.

Good intern, isint that an oxymoron?

*ducks*

lemon_remon

ChRoMe wrote: »

Yes, yes you are.

Yeah... it was a very optimistic 5.30 am post.

amen

Not really a skill but a grad shouldn't assume he/she is the only one in the company with a degree and he/she especially shouldn't say it in canteen in a loud voice

CreepingDeath

amen wrote: »

Not really a skill but a grad shouldn't assume he/she is the only one in the company with a degree and he/she especially shouldn't say it in canteen in a loud voice

Ah sure all interns/grads come out of college over confident in their skills.

It takes patience to break their spirit and turn them into a cubicle zombie.

ChRoMe

CreepingDeath wrote: »

Ah sure all interns/grads come out of college over confident in their skills.

It takes patience to break their spirit and turn them into a cubicle zombie.

Never a truer word spoken (typed?)

Sparks

Hey, you let the shouty nutters run the blogosphere/tweetosphere(?) with their buzzwords and hype and this is what you get...