The right to die -who's life is it anyway?

Hybernian Angel

If one has a terminal illness and knows that they're going to die in a relatively short period of time, who has the right to tell them they can't opt for euthanasia?.

I'm really interested in this on a number of fronts. As a nurse working in Care of the Older person some of my residents get very depressed and say they'd love to just 'end it all', but for some - a few weeks later after being put on antidepressants they're fine.

Also, because of medical advances, with 'end of life' care - we in the health profession can give as much analgesia as is warranted for pain - and if the side effect of this is to hasten death - so be it.

While its a Christian belief that no one can take or give life but God, for some - this may not be very humanitarian.

Daveaherne

If a person is going to die a painful death then they should have that option available to them.

Hybernian Angel

But what if it's against one's faith ?.

Stercus Accidit

Hybernian Angel wrote: »

But what if it's against one's faith ?.

Most importantly somebody else's faith shouldn't dictate how they die.

Hybernian Angel

True. What about if it's against our law as the 'right to die' is not enshrined in our constitution.

philologos

Whose life is it anyway? - The Lord's, He gives and He takes away (Job 1:21). Indeed everything in the entire creation is His (Psalm 24:1)

lazygal

My life is mine. Mine to decide what to do with and to end, if I so wish.

lmaopml

Hybernian Angel wrote: »

True. What about if it's against our law as the 'right to die' is not enshrined in our constitution.

Exactly - and the right to ask somebody to take your life isn't either.

imo, 'kill the pain, not the patient', especially with the advancement in medical science works much better and is more ethical. As you mention there yourself, many people are just depressed and having been administered the proper meds they DO respond.

For what it's worth, that's my opinion, and even if I weren't a Catholic it would still be my opinion.

Zombrex

Many people know they are going to die and know they are going to die painfully. It should be a right for those people to terminate their lives in the manner they see fit.

The issue is safe guarding so that

a) A person who is not terminal doesn't kill themselves
b) Consent is genuine, not down to physical or mental impairment, nor pressure from external sources (eg family members).
c) The procedure is carried out in as "safe" a manner as possible, ie it does not cause unnecessary suffering or pain.
d) There is a record and full understanding between all parties and the State that this was a legal death, so the person who carried it out is not charged with murder.

All of these things are very complicated, so it is really not just a case of saying we should let people die if they want to.

Hybernian Angel

If a person is ill and they don't appear to be responding to treatment - depending on what the illness is, their age and outcome prospects - an Interdisciplinary ( all medical, nursing, social work, counsellors etc, etc), meet with the patiwent and family. Once 'palliative' or 'end of life' care is decided on by all, full treatment of any discomfort / pain is instigated whereby all medication to control the symptoms is administered. If - as is the case with respiratory depressing analgesia such as morphine - it needs to be given at such high doses that it controls the pain but also depresses respiration - so be it. We are fully covered in order that no human being need ever die in pain.

Given that that's the case, and these safeguards are in place - do you still feel it's necessary to activate leglislation whereby the 'right to die' is implemented ?.

totus tuus

Fr. Pavone wrote an excellent article on the "Right to Die" from a Christian perspective!

For a Christian, however, is "my life" really "mine"? Is my death really mine? The answer has to be yes and no. It is mine in the sense that it has been given to me and nobody else; it is not mine alone, however, because I am not the source of my own existence, and I am accountable for it to another, namely, God. "You are not your own," St. Paul declares (1 Cor. 6:19). "If we live, we are responsible to the Lord, and when we die we are responsible to the Lord. Both in life and in death we belong to the Lord." ( See Romans 14:18). Not one of us decided the time or manner in which we came into this world. Our life is a sacred gift from God, and only He can give it. It is therefore His right alone to take us out of this world.

Full Article

Hybernian Angel

Nice one.

Pwpane

Hybernian Angel wrote: »

If a person is ill and they don't appear to be responding to treatment - depending on what the illness is, their age and outcome prospects - an Interdisciplinary ( all medical, nursing, social work, counsellors etc, etc), meet with the patiwent and family. Once 'palliative' or 'end of life' care is decided on by all, full treatment of any discomfort / pain is instigated whereby all medication to control the symptoms is administered. If - as is the case with respiratory depressing analgesia such as morphine - it needs to be given at such high doses that it controls the pain but also depresses respiration - so be it. We are fully covered in order that no human being need ever die in pain.

Given that that's the case, and these safeguards are in place - do you still feel it's necessary to activate leglislation whereby the 'right to die' is implemented ?.

Are you saying that in Ireland now, everyone (excluding those who die suddenly) has a pain-free death?

Are you telling me that my two relatives that died slowly, one in hospital and one at home with a care team, were not in pain when they twisted their bodies and groaned?

Gumbi

philologos wrote: »

Whose life is it anyway? - The Lord's, He gives and He takes away (Job 1:21). Indeed everything in the entire creation is His (Psalm 24:1)

Does God take the life of an innocent murder victim?

frag420

So if God were to be asked would he prefer to see someone continue to suffer in pain and discomfort and eventually die suffering this pain and discomfort do you think he would say yes let them suffer until death for it is what I want as I am god and all knowing.

Or do you think he may have an ounce of humanity and decency in him and do as we were all taught to do growing up, the Christian thing and end this suffering of one of his children?

Zombrex

Pwpane wrote: »

Are you saying that in Ireland now, everyone (excluding those who die suddenly) has a pain-free death?

Are you telling me that my two relatives that died slowly, one in hospital and one at home with a care team, were not in pain when they twisted their bodies and groaned?

Yeah was wondering this myself. I'm not an expert in this area at all, but that description provided didn't seem to be the situation in Ireland.

Gumbi

zenno wrote: »

Prove that there is such a thing as a God ?. There's absolutely no proof anywhere that such a God exits or ever existed, so why bring this into it.

... I don't believe in God...

I am arguing based on Phililogos's assumptions (that a God, the Christian God) exists. Convincing him that one should have a right to end their lives because God doesn't exist would be a futile endeavour.

Hybernian Angel

As far as I'm concerned , I know little about religion - and I care less. To my mind it's been the causitive agent in so many wars, deaths, misery and oppression. I was brought into the world in a mixed Catholic / Proddy marraige. Sent to an industrial school at six weeks cos I was found dying of starvation. Sent back to the parents at five years old. It wasn't a great reunion. They didn't like me - and I wasn't so happy with them either.

What it has given me though is an ability to read and empathise with people with a very straight accuracy. It's so ironic - I'm not able to be sensitive to peoples 'feelings'. I can't read their subelties. But when someone is at the end of their thether - I can jump in and pull them back.......weird.

Does a 'God' exist that's given me the ability that can save people who want to die - from killing themselves ?. And is that anyone's decision to make ?.

Physical pain, psychic pain, phychological pain......do we deal with it or opt out. Who has the right to make that decision?.

spank_inferno

Isn't suicide, assisted or not, a no-no in the eyes of Christianity?

As a child I was told that our lord suffered for our sins so we must suffer and he will take us to heaven when it is our time (my grandmother).

Pwpane

Hybernian Angel wrote: »

As far as I'm concerned , I know little about religion - and I care less. To my mind it's been the causitive agent in so many wars, deaths, misery and oppression. I was brought into the world in a mixed Catholic / Proddy marraige. Sent to an industrial school at six weeks cos I was found dying of starvation. Sent back to the parents at five years old. It wasn't a great reunion. They didn't like me - and I wasn't so happy with them either.

What it has given me though is an ability to read and empathise with people with a very straight accuracy. It's so ironic - I'm not able to be sensitive to peoples 'feelings'. I can't read their subelties. But when someone is at the end of their thether - I can jump in and pull them back.......weird.

Does a 'God' exist that's given me the ability that can save people who want to die - from killing themselves ?. And is that anyone's decision to make ?.

Physical pain, psychic pain, phychological pain......do we deal with it or opt out. Who has the right to make that decision?.

I understand better where you're coming from now, Hybernian Angel. I think the answer to your question can only be that the person themselves is the only person who has the right to make that decision. Well done to you if you can pull someone back from the brink and give them reason to want to live a while more. But that's just it - it's that person who has to live that life so the decision belongs to them alone.

I'm wondering, though, why you chose to ask this question on the Christianity forum?

joseph brand

It seems to me, that we have people in no pain, telling those suffering massive mental and physical pain, to just 'carry on'.

It should be allowed, under the strictest conditions, but still allowed. Obviously it's not for everyone, but it is right for a small number. Their lives must be worse than a prison sentence, which most of us view as unsavoury, to put it mildly.

For religious folks here, how do you actually believe that a good person suffering is 'god's plan'?

If anyone is truly 'at peace' when they die, it's those who seek euthanasia.

philologos

Gumbi wrote: »

... I don't believe in God...

I am arguing based on Phililogos's assumptions (that a God, the Christian God) exists. Convincing him that one should have a right to end their lives because God doesn't exist would be a futile endeavour.

Your previous argument doesn't convince me much either.

On the grand scale of things, God could choose to take my life at any time. Indeed it is only by His grace that I'm still alive. I'm not entitled to life, it is a free gift from the Lord. In the same way it is only Jesus that has saved me from eternal condemnation, I'm not entitled to His mercy, but I have received it nonetheless.

Luke 12:13-21 wrote:

Someone in the crowd said to him, “Teacher, tell my brother to divide the inheritance with me.” But he said to him, “Man, who made me a judge or arbitrator over you?” And he said to them, “Take care, and be on your guard against all covetousness, for one's life does not consist in the abundance of his possessions.” And he told them a parable, saying, “The land of a rich man produced plentifully, and he thought to himself, ‘What shall I do, for I have nowhere to store my crops?’ And he said, ‘I will do this: I will tear down my barns and build larger ones, and there I will store all my grain and my goods. And I will say to my soul, “Soul, you have ample goods laid up for many years; relax, eat, drink, be merry.”’ But God said to him, ‘Fool! This night your soul is required of you, and the things you have prepared, whose will they be?’ So is the one who lays up treasure for himself and is not rich toward God.”

Hybernian Angel

Great points. And since none of us appear to have a direct line to God- I would presume that we can assume ?. I'm assuming he wouldn't condone suffering and has given us the ability to bring it to an end. But I can only make the choice for myself - not another human being.

Pwpane

philologos wrote: »

On the grand scale of things, God could choose to take my life at any time. Indeed it is only by His grace that I'm still alive. I'm not entitled to life, it is a free gift from the Lord. In the same way it is only Jesus that has saved me from eternal condemnation, I'm not entitled to His mercy, but I have received it nonetheless.

In the same vein, free will is a free gift from the Lord. From the beginning He has chosen to allow us to choose evil as well as good. It would be against His will, therefore, to take that choice from anyone.