Rundown of Rosslare worrying the Welsh

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Much concern being expressed on the Fishguard Trains website re what on earth is going on at Rosslare.
Trains that leave minutes before the ferry docks.
Stations moved far away from the ferry terminal
Rail line to the midlands closed.
Is this a rundown to closure?
If not, what's the plan?
Does anyone in Ireland's south-east care?
Fishguard has got more trains, Rosslare is losing its rail connectivity.
You wouldn't think we're all in Europe together ...

monument

Split from old thread and new thread started

Richard Logue

There is an issue regarding capacity on the Rosslare line and current train timings mean the Ex-Rosslare train has to leave when it does - however there is an argument that the Rosslare - Dublin service be delayed until much later.

end of the road

in my life time rosslare will be shut and demolished, the line as far as graystones will also be shut and lifted, and the line to waterford will be lifted also

Victor

But hasn't Rosslare gained on the bus front?

Jamie2k9

Correct me if I am wrong but wasn't connections between Waterford-Rosslare much more popular than Rosslare-Dublin services. Revising the train times will cater for a very small number of passengers so I can see why IE are not bothered about it in a way.

But hasn't Rosslare gained on the bus front?

Havn't BE reduced services due to low demand.

corktina

it's a small number of passengers because it's been engineered that way deliberately. Some commentators have been saying that for many years.

thomasj

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Havn't BE reduced services due to low demand.

Yes. Service has reduced considerably and only operates to and from wexford

Terrontress

corktina wrote: »

it's a small number of passengers because it's been engineered that way deliberately. Some commentators have been saying that for many years.

That's the whole story of IE. Fail to provide a service and then point to people making alternative arrangements as proof that there is no demand.

Symptoms or cause. That's the question.

Jamie2k9

It will still be a small number of passengers weather on not the train waits for the ferry, there will never be mass numbers connecting.

Terrontress

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

It will still be a small number of passengers weather on not the train waits for the ferry, there will never be mass numbers connecting.

Because they don't currently?

foggy_lad

Terrontress wrote: »

Because they don't currently?

Because people fly or take their cars or use Eurolines or have someone collect them rather than pay through the nose for a slow train that stops at every mountain halt.

Grandeeod

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Correct me if I am wrong but wasn't connections between Waterford-Rosslare much more popular than Rosslare-Dublin services. Revising the train times will cater for a very small number of passengers so I can see why IE are not bothered about it in a way.



Havn't BE reduced services due to low demand.

Well lets close it so, along with the WRC, Wat - Lmk Jnct, and Nenagh/Roscrea.

monument

foggy_lad wrote: »

Because people fly or take their cars or use Eurolines or have someone collect them rather than pay through the nose for a slow train that stops at every mountain halt.

Err pay through the nose? Rail and Sail?!

Grandeeod

monument wrote: »

Err pay through the nose? Rail and Sail?!

Exactly. We have been hypnotised by cheap air travel and the knock on effect causes blatant complacency within other transport providers. No effort made.

end of the road

foggy_lad wrote: »

every mountain halt.

what are you on about foggy? wicklow, arklow, gorey, eniscorthy, wexford, are all major towns in the southeast of ireland
the reason people take their cars is because back in the 50s and 60s the irish government did everything possible to make sure thats what would happen, they shut the railways (even ones the people would have used) in some cases they didn't replace the railways with decent roads, and where they did they waited until the railways closed (funny how they could afford to build those roads while telling CIE to stand on its own without subsidy ) why? more revenue and vested interests (jobs for the boys/contracts for their friends)

corktina

they aren't major towns. they are fairly big in an Irish context but still not much more than large villages in reality.

Terrontress

foggy_lad wrote: »

Because people fly or take their cars or use Eurolines or have someone collect them rather than pay through the nose for a slow train that stops at every mountain halt.

I think people take their cars and get lifts because the option to take the train isn't there. Given the cost of petrol and the major pain in the neck which flying is, not to mention the cost of getting to the airport or parking there, there is definitely a good business in Rail Sail.

corktina

Terrontress wrote: »

I think people take their cars and get lifts because the option to take the train isn't there. Given the cost of petrol and the major pain in the neck which flying is, not to mention the cost of getting to the airport or parking there, there is definitely a good business in Rail Sail.

yes, it's putting the cart before the horse to say people use other means of transport when rail has been deliberately emasculated

Hilly Bill

I think the thread title is misleading. The Welsh are not a bit worried about Rosslare,in the same way that the Irish are not bothered about Fishguard.
Would it increase the foot passenger numbers on them sailings in sufficient numbers in both directions if the trains left within an hour of the sailings docking?
It might be more appealing to a few from South West Wales wanting to go to Dublin for the Rugby but i cant see the numbers increasing for the Dublin-Rosslare trains with foot passengers for the boats.

corktina

Hilly Bill wrote: »

I think the thread title is misleading. The Welsh are not a bit worried about Rosslare,in the same way that the Irish are not bothered about Fishguard.
Would it increase the foot passenger numbers on them sailings in sufficient numbers in both directions if the trains left within an hour of the sailings docking?
It might be more appealing to a few from South West Wales wanting to go to Dublin for the Rugby but i cant see the numbers increasing for the Dublin-Rosslare trains with foot passengers for the boats.

Not worried? maybe I read it wrong?

http://fishguardtrains.info/

Hilly Bill

corktina wrote: »

Not worried? maybe I read it wrong?

http://fishguardtrains.info/

Fishguard trains are worried not the Welsh as per title thread.

Richard Logue

corktina wrote: »

they aren't major towns. they are fairly big in an Irish context but still not much more than large villages in reality.

Here are the population figures as per Wikipedia:

Enniscorthy: 9538
Wicklow: 6761
Wexford Town: 20000
Arklow:13009
Gorey:9114

In some US states these places would be defined as Cities. Also there is the general hinterland to consider. It is in my opinion something of a reverse exaggeration to describe these towns as big villages. I'd consider Rathdrum a "big village" but it also serves tourist traffic for Glendalough.

corktina

Richard Logue wrote: »

Here are the population figures as per Wikipedia:

Enniscorthy: 9538
Wicklow: 6761
Wexford Town: 20000
Arklow:13009
Gorey:9114

In some US states these places would be defined as Cities. Also there is the general hinterland to consider. It is in my opinion something of a reverse exaggeration to describe these towns as big villages. I'd consider Rathdrum a "big village" but it also serves tourist traffic for Glendalough.

on the other hand Reading in Berkshire has a population of between 145000 in the Borough area and 369000 in the "metropolitan " area including the suburbs which are adminstered by neighbouring Wokingham and Newbury Councils and is a Town and what's more was turned down for City status last year despite being the County Town of ROYAL Berkshire and City statuses being granted elsewhere to commerate Elizabeth IIs Diamond Jubilee

Put in context , they arentmuch more than big villages.

Richard Logue

Not sure what wider point you are trying to make by describing the major towns in Wicklow and Wexford as large villages. I don't consider them as such and neither does the Central Statistics Office.

In fact the Local Government Act of 2001 defines a town as a settlement with a population in excess of 7,500.

corktina

Richard Logue wrote: »

Not sure what wider point you are trying to make by describing the major towns in Wicklow and Wexford as large villages. I don't consider them as such and neither does the Central Statistics Office.

In fact the Local Government Act of 2001 defines a town as a settlement with a population in excess of 7,500.

i didn't describe tham as large villages.(ps what does that make Wicklow btw?)

Richard Logue

corktina wrote: »

i didn't describe tham as large villages.(ps what does that make Wicklow btw?)

corktina wrote: »

they aren't major towns. they are fairly big in an Irish context but still not much more than large villages in reality.

corktina

Richard Logue wrote: »

NOT MUCH MORE THAN LARGE VILLAGES.In other words, they aren't large viillages (except Wicklow) but they aren't much bigger than a large village (admitedly not in all cases)

Hilly Bill

Wicklow is a big enough town and so are the others .

corktina

Hilly Bill wrote: »

Wicklow is a big enough town and so are the others .

I have been told that towns have more than 7500 inhabitants. Wicklow has about 6700 I'm told. Not that it matters, but my point is that none of these are major towns. They are the biggest towns in the region, will that suffice?

Vic_08

You two are arguing over this? And meanwhile across the water the CITY of St. Davids doesn't even have a rail link. Get your priorities right.

Hilly Bill

corktina wrote: »

I have been told that towns have more than 7500 inhabitants. Wicklow has about 6700 I'm told. Not that it matters, but my point is that none of these are major towns. They are the biggest towns in the region, will that suffice?

It doesnt really matter what the size of these towns are does it?

corktina

Vic_08 wrote: »

You two are arguing over this? And meanwhile across the water the CITY of St. Davids doesn't even have a rail link. Get your priorities right.

yep, it's tiny. did it ever have a rail link?

the whole point is that the line to Rosslare Harbour is under threat and I don't like the methods that IE have resorted to to run it down. If they get away with it, more lines will follow. Fair enough if they genuinely are dead ducks, but not if dirty tricks are employed. I seem to recall someone saying the only reason they haven't closed down RH is that the train creww are based there.

Hilly Bill

What methods are that?

purplepanda

IE just make excuses, the line south of Greystones is obviously destined for closure, IE would rather close it along with Waterford - Limerick Junction & others than introduce better services or let another company gain access to the rail system. :mad:

They say there's no train pathways for more frequent travel up to Dublin north of Greystones due to DART services, well here's a radical proposal run services to & from the South East to Greystones from Wexford & Waterford :pac:

Connect these services with DART at Greystones, means better access to & from Dublin, run a proper service during the day, including later evening services.

Try connecting with ferries, make rail a viable option for visitors.

Serve the commuter market between Waterford & Wexford, connecting with Waterford - Limerick trains for access to Munster & the South West .Kilkenny and more potential journeys.

Market the line as a "Gateway to Ireland" with publicity to attract visitors & tourists from home & overseas, plenty of towns & places of interest, resorts & historical attractions from Wicklow through Wexford to Waterford & beyond.

Tourism has been earmarked by the government as an important economic sector, it's about time IE started playing their part.

LXFlyer

purplepanda wrote: »

IE just make excuses, the line south of Greystones is obviously destined for closure, IE would rather close it along with Waterford - Limerick Junction & others than introduce better services or let another company gain access to the rail system. :mad:

They say there's no train pathways for more frequent travel up to Dublin north of Greystones due to DART services, well here's a radical proposal run services to & from the South East to Greystones from Wexford & Waterford :pac:

Connect these services with DART at Greystones, means better access to & from Dublin, run a proper service during the day, including later evening services.

Try connecting with ferries, make rail a viable option for visitors.

Serve the commuter market between Waterford & Wexford, connecting with Waterford - Limerick trains for access to Munster & the South West .Kilkenny and more potential journeys.

Market the line as a "Gateway to Ireland" with publicity to attract visitors & tourists from home & overseas, plenty of towns & places of interest, resorts & historical attractions from Wicklow through Wexford to Waterford & beyond.

Tourism has been earmarked by the government as an important economic sector, it's about time IE started playing their part.

You are misreading the posts on paths.

The clock face DART does impose constraints on the Rosslare line with 2 available paths each hour. My main point on the paths was trying to find an available and realistic path for a train to connect with the afternoon ferry at Rosslare, in the context of having to pass 3 trains en route and fit into the DART timetable as well.

During the rest of the day there is no issue with additional paths whatsoever, other than fitting into the DART timetable, which leaves two slots per hour.

The fundamental issue is COST. Someone has to pay for any additional services, and as I've repeatedly pointed out it would appear that the NTA do not wish to do so. They ultimately call the shots in terms of what level of service is provided, not IE.

purplepanda

So if the available paths can't be accessed on time due to potential delay in passing train services using the single track & connectivity with ferry times, running trains to Greystones could still be an option if the schedules can't be worked out for more direct services to & from Dublin.

I was under the impression that IE were suggesting it was a Greystones & beyond issue that was preventing IE increasing services on the Rosslare route.

My point still stands & the funding should be found for integrated connections to ferry arrivals & departures, allied with regional commuter timetables, with viable connections to Weterford & beyond, IE have the spare capacity & railcars which are lying idle & some could be refurbished.

I suggest the government & NTA tries to raise funds to make it happen, EU tourist industry & regional & transport development funds must be available to help with the cost of introducing services to attract more passengers & tourists to the South East & beyond.

Attracting tourists to the SE region will benefit local business & increase government tax revenues alike. It's no use trying to entice visitors away from Dublin when they could be arriving directly into the region.

Grandeeod

lxflyer wrote: »

You are misreading the posts on paths.

The clock face DART does impose constraints on the Rosslare line with 2 available paths each hour. My main point on the paths was trying to find an available and realistic path for a train to connect with the afternoon ferry at Rosslare, in the context of having to pass 3 trains en route and fit into the DART timetable as well.

During the rest of the day there is no issue with additional paths whatsoever, other than fitting into the DART timetable, which leaves two slots per hour.

The fundamental issue is COST. Someone has to pay for any additional services, and as I've repeatedly pointed out it would appear that the NTA do not wish to do so. They ultimately call the shots in terms of what level of service is provided, not IE.

Before the NTA was created and when funding was plentiful, IE didn't want to know about developing the route. They are still to blame. Blaming the NTA and current funding limitations is just moving the goalposts.

dowlingm

Folks, we are here wringing our hands over what IE are doing or not doing for the poor ferry companies. Is it IE's responsibility? Let's pull back and look at the big picture.

• There are some people who would have left the ferries decades ago if it wasn't for the BA/EI cartel. The good old days were good for a reason - I myself took overnight Eurolines in December 1992 from Cahir to London because the cost of a flight was prohibitive. Not one of my fonder memories.
• Improvements to the N25 in particular has improved travel times for bus and car between Limerick, Kerry, Cork and Kilkenny-Carlow which would be the biggest catchments for a Rosslare based rather than Dublin based ferry.
• The Dublin-Rosslare line struggles on with single track (albeit at least miniCTC) south of Bray, 100-120m platforms in most places rather than the 176m in the rest of the country and the ridiculous crawl along Wexford Quay so that the local council can have convenient car parking
• The Waterford-Rosslare line had labour intensive signalling, roster-prioritised rather than connection-prioritised timetabling and slow speed limits to ensure no-one would notice the advantage of bypassing New Ross while bouncing along early 1900s trackage.
• Lack of obvious agitation by the ferry companies. Do they even want foot passengers or is their profit mix from cars and BE Eurolines 40/55-890 buses more favourable?

Geog1234

Not being smart but just out of interest wondering why Eurolines in 1992 as back then there was a boat train (not Sundays) Limerick - Rosslare which would have departed Cahir later in the evening than the coach and once over in England the train would be in London about 06.30 well ahead of the coach.

Heard that one of the ferry companies operating out of Rosslare made representations at the time the railway to Waterford stopped and has done so again subsequently.

Have no aversion to buses/coaches but for many the choice is either own car, train or not travel that route/travel a different way.

Terrontress

dowlingm wrote: »

- I myself took overnight Eurolines in December 1992 from Cahir to London because the cost of a flight was prohibitive. Not one of my fonder memories.
]

Have you done Sail Rail recently? It's a great alternative to flying. Much cheaper and convenient times. What's more, you're afforded a bit of dignity, unlike flying.

Hilly Bill

Terrontress wrote: »

Have you done Sail Rail recently? It's a great alternative to flying. Much cheaper and convenient times. What's more, you're afforded a bit of dignity, unlike flying.

Its cheaper to get to London than Cork.

dowlingm

Geog1234 wrote: »

Not being smart but just out of interest wondering why Eurolines in 1992 as back then there was a boat train (not Sundays) Limerick - Rosslare which would have departed Cahir later in the evening than the coach and once over in England the train would be in London about 06.30 well ahead of the coach.

To be honest the passage of time has eroded my memory on the whys and wherefores