dairying

Cran

Was visiting a friend yesterday and we got on to discussion around dairying, and going into it. This lad has good block of land and considering investigating starting up. We starting talking through it and to be honest neither of us are very educated on it so was just hypothetical but just curious what people think of feasiblity and costs etc
Thought it might be an interesting discussion as this guy farm seems to fit what everyone is looking at for dairy post 2015

He has 200 acres in one block , and another 60 away but near the main block but possiblity to connect both he said. Mainly tillage and sheep stopped fattening cattled few years ago. Got decent sheds for storage, and for maybe putting a dairy into but would need new cow sheds and silage pits.. I was wondering how many cows could he milk (very good land), cost of set-up for cows, buldings and quota if required

Viewtodiefor

Cran wrote: »

Was visiting a friend yesterday and we got on to discussion around dairying, and going into it. This lad has good block of land and considering investigating starting up. We starting talking through it and to be honest neither of us are very educated on it so was just hypothetical but just curious what people think of feasiblity and costs etc
Thought it might be an interesting discussion as this guy farm seems to fit what everyone is looking at for dairy post 2015

He has 200 acres in one block , and another 60 away but near the main block but possiblity to connect both he said. Mainly tillage and sheep stopped fattening cattled few years ago. Got decent sheds for storage, and for maybe putting a dairy into but would need new cow sheds and silage pits.. I was wondering how many cows could he milk (very good land), cost of set-up for cows, buldings and quota if required

€750000 to get up to full capacity

freedominacup

Viewtodiefor wrote: »

€750000 to get up to full capacity

That's a conservative enough estimate.

Viewtodiefor

freedominacup wrote: »

That's a conservative enough estimate.

Yep probably is!

Bactidiaryl

Back of fag box figure.
Buildings ect for 200 cows & followers €500000.
Parlour & tank no frills €100000
200 cows €240000
Dairy specific machinery €20000
Shares,often forgotten! €80000
Farm road, fencing & water €50000
Misc €10000
I'm sure I left out loads.
TOTAL; € 1,000,000

Lots o zeros.

delaval

Bactidiaryl wrote: »

Back of fag box figure.
Buildings ect for 200 cows & followers €500000.
Parlour & tank no frills €100000
200 cows €240000
Dairy specific machinery €20000
Shares,often forgotten! €80000
Farm road, fencing & water €50000
Misc €10000
I'm sure I left out loads.
TOTAL; € 1,000,000

Lots o zeros.

You cannot be serious to suggest pending €2500/ cow on a shed. This can and has been done for > €700/cow. Where do you get these figures from?
He could carry 240 cows in time when farm beds in after being in tillage for a while. To me the other costs look fine.

Dont be daft

Bactidiaryl wrote: »

Shares,often forgotten! €80000

Can someone explain this to me?

Timmaay

A good few of the Co-ops will make you buy shares in them to supply milk to them, method of funding the Co-op, and tying you in as a serious supplier.

Tipp Man

If this guy has good land and is decent at tillage then he would be a fool to even consider getting into dairy

Spend a million to work 365 days a year versus spend nothing and be busy for 3 months a year, usually the best 3 months of the year. And by busy I mean driving a tractor

I know what I'd do

Bactidiaryl

delaval wrote: »

You cannot be serious to suggest pending €2500/ cow on a shed. This can and has been done for > €700/cow. Where do you get these figures from?
He could carry 240 cows in time when farm beds in after being in tillage for a while. To me the other costs look fine.

At €700/ cow you would probably get a wood chip pad which is in my mind a shaggin pain in the arse especially giving our winters. A lot of the guys who put them in their farms the last number of years are now changing back to traditional housing.

And no experience. He'd be crazy to go dairying. And don't forget the elephant in the room @ what milk price???

20silkcut

I would agree. You could do some fairly powerful tillage/sheep/beef farming with 200 acres of good land for a fraction of the costs quoted above.
Mental stuff. Shocked to see them written down like that and touching 1 million my god. why would anyone get into that?
And all for an average standard of living and working probably 12/7.

Is there a perception that anything less than dairy farming is not proper farming??

A friend of mine who re-started his fathers dairy farm last year just loves the fact that he is busy all the time.

I know when my own fathers dairy enterprise went wallop years ago he had absolutely zero interest in re-starting farming with a different enterprise and just set his land every year from then on.

kevthegaff

What about starting small with 40-50 cows and a 12 unit second hand parlour and tank. Put up a cheap shed that can be expanded. thats what i done

freedominacup

Tipp Man wrote: »

If this guy has good land and is decent at tillage then he would be a fool to even consider getting into dairy

Spend a million to work 365 days a year versus spend nothing and be busy for 3 months a year, usually the best 3 months of the year. And by busy I mean driving a tractor

I know what I'd do

Tipp Man and I agree on something:eek: who'd have thunk it. I said exactly the same when I saw the greenfields demo farm in Carrick. Almost 300 acres of the best of land and the guy running a 30 unit parlour on his own. He'd have a much more comfortable lifestyle at grain for a lot less work.

td5man

freedominacup wrote: »

Tipp Man and I agree on something:eek: who'd have thunk it. I said exactly the same when I saw the greenfields demo farm in Carrick. Almost 300 acres of the best of land and the guy running a 30 unit parlour on his own. He'd have a much more comfortable lifestyle at grain for a lot less work.

But think of all the money hes going to make milking ;-)

freedominacup

td5man wrote: »

But think of all the money hes going to make milking ;-)

I think the reason he was running the 30 unit parlour on his own was that he wasn't making enough to afford a full time employee. The returns were obviously good:rolleyes:

Sam Kade

kevthegaff wrote: »

What about starting small with 40-50 cows and a 12 unit second hand parlour and tank. Put up a cheap shed that can be expanded. thats what i done

Exactly, it's like when learning to swim would you jump into the deep end or the shallow end of the swimming pool.

mf240

kevthegaff wrote: »

What about starting small with 40-50 cows and a 12 unit second hand parlour and tank. Put up a cheap shed that can be expanded. thats what i done

With some carefull planning and the right type of cow you could outwinter them on stubbles/forage crop as part of tillage operation.

You could build numbers to what you can manage yourself and then continue with some tillage.

If you dont bury yourself in debt and its turns out dairying isn't for you, then its easy put it all back in tillage.

You wouldnt marry a woman without getting to know her first, if you borrow a million to get into cows you wont be getting out any time soon.

Min

kevthegaff wrote: »

What about starting small with 40-50 cows and a 12 unit second hand parlour and tank. Put up a cheap shed that can be expanded. thats what i done

Totally agree with this.

You don't have to start out big, you have to know what you are doing and get the basic rights before expanding, and be able to do it while making a profit.

There is all this big talk of hundreds of cows, you don't need hundreds of cows, maybe the processors would like us all to have hundreds of cows to provide milk to them. But this is not necessarily the most profitable way to do it when it is the bank you are working for to pay back the very large loans if you do start big - this also puts you under greater pressure if there is a collapse in milk price which is not unknown as many of us well know.

The focus needs to be on profit - not cow numbers.

darragh_haven

Min wrote: »

The focus needs to be on profit - not cow numbers.

Unfortunately, too many people think that if I have 200 cows I will make 4 times (or 6 or 7 times, due to perceived economy of scale) than the guy with 50 cows.
I think for the majority of guy this is far from the reality.

leg wax

start up what ever number of cows,milking parlour and works,winter out on kale-turnips,and bring it into a reseeding rotation dont spend money on concrete as you wont see it again.

delaval

Bactidiaryl wrote: »

At €700/ cow you would probably get a wood chip pad which is in my mind a shaggin pain in the arse especially giving our winters. A lot of the guys who put them in their farms the last number of years are now changing back to traditional housing.

And no experience. He'd be crazy to go dairying. And don't forget the elephant in the room @ what milk price???

You can do a pad and lagoon for <€300/cow.
Is the pad you have not working well for you?

Bactidiaryl

Don't have one. But know a man who does. Did.

maxxuumman

delaval wrote: »

You can do a pad and lagoon for <€300/cow.
Is the pad you have not working well for you?

3 farms around here have gone away from out wintering pad, and one is goin this year. All have between 100 and 300 cows, they weren't happy with them and the annual cost being the reason.

darragh_haven

The problem with pads and lagoons (as seen first hand helping my neighbor with over 350 cows) is that the lagoon which is 45 x 45 meters, and the pad for about 120 depressed cows (which I don't exactly know the size of) take 1.1 or 1.2 meters of rainfall a year. This leads to over 1 million gallons extra of water he has to spread on top of the slurry.
A pad and lagoon may be 300 per cow to install, but your paying for it every year with spreading rainwater, and cows giving ya the auld droopy eyes, saying to ya "would ya ever put me outta my misery and make me into a burger"

kevthegaff

i have an overground tank, the amount of rain that fills it!:(

Cran

been away for couple of days, bloody hell some of the figures are mind boggling....

Out of curiosity as I know nothing about dairying, what is the average profit per cow on an Irish dairy farm currently and whats the forecasted profit for the next few years?

Dont be daft

Cran wrote: »

been away for couple of days, bloody hell some of the figures are mind boggling....

Out of curiosity as I know nothing about dairying, what is the average profit per cow on an Irish dairy farm currently and whats the forecasted profit for the next few years?

The figure thats usually belted around would be a Gross of 500 per cow.

But the Greenfield farm in Kilkenny came in at 750 per cow this year (I think) Bare in mind that it was on the back of very high calf prices and good milk prices as well as a pretty good economy of scale with 300 cows.

Having said that I think they also increased cow numbers by 50 odd, they have 50 per head paid out on woodchip, had an astronomical fert bill and the contractors bill was something like 50k aswell.

delaval

darragh_haven wrote: »

The problem with pads and lagoons (as seen first hand helping my neighbor with over 350 cows) is that the lagoon which is 45 x 45 meters, and the pad for about 120 depressed cows (which I don't exactly know the size of) take 1.1 or 1.2 meters of rainfall a year. This leads to over 1 million gallons extra of water he has to spread on top of the slurry.
A pad and lagoon may be 300 per cow to install, but your paying for it every year with spreading rainwater, and cows giving ya the auld droopy eyes, saying to ya "would ya ever put me outta my misery and make me into a burger"

We winter cows on a pad and cubicles. The pad wins hands down every time. In 15 years have not lost a cow on the pad. Cubicle house would not be the same. But if you have €2500/cow to blow on a shed that looks good from the road go for it, but don't start crying about milk price. We are able to rent sheds that cost 000's to build for peanuts. Usually the reason that they are idle is because milk price was too low!!!!!!!!

Tipp Man

delaval wrote: »

We winter cows on a pad and cubicles. The pad wins hands down every time. In 15 years have not lost a cow on the pad. Cubicle house would not be the same. But if you have €2500/cow to blow on a shed that looks good from the road go for it, but don't start crying about milk price. We are able to rent sheds that cost 000's to build for peanuts. Usually the reason that they are idle is because milk price was too low!!!!!!!!

Bearing in mind that Kilkenny is the driest county in Ireland

Not many were put in around here - but those that did put them in have now gone back to cubicles

delaval

Certainlt didn't feel too dry since june. Our average is 1m of rain what it like in yoour area?

maxxuumman

Dont be daft wrote: »

The figure thats usually belted around would be a Gross of 500 per cow.

But the Greenfield farm in Kilkenny came in at 750 per cow this year (I think) Bare in mind that it was on the back of very high calf prices and good milk prices as well as a pretty good economy of scale with 300 cows.

Having said that I think they also increased cow numbers by 50 odd, they have 50 per head paid out on woodchip, had an astronomical fert bill and the contractors bill was something like 50k aswell.

Did they clear that much in Greenfields. I thought the profit was only 30 or 40k for the year

mahoney_j

delaval wrote: »

We winter cows on a pad and cubicles. The pad wins hands down every time. In 15 years have not lost a cow on the pad. Cubicle house would not be the same. But if you have €2500/cow to blow on a shed that looks good from the road go for it, but don't start crying about milk price. We are able to rent sheds that cost 000's to build for peanuts. Usually the reason that they are idle is because milk price was too low!!!!!!!!

Yes delaval but rember with your pad you have the cost of woodchip which is rising and also milking cows can not be stood off or outwintered on it.And ur lagoon gathers an astronomical ammount of water which in most cases requires an umbillical slurry system to efficently empty it.whereas with a cubicle shed and concrete you have something which u can outwinter and stand off milking cows on and also have it fully paid off in 5 or 8 years or whatever suits.Last year the greenfield farm in kilkenny spent north of 14000 on woodchip as well as having to empty the lagoon twice.That aint sustinable.For me anyone that is getting into dairying needs to be 100% commited to it and not just test the water for a year or 2.Spend a reasonable ammount of money relative to your land block and cow nos,do,lots of research and for the next 2 years rember we are still have milk quotas and superlevy and large fines are going to be the norm if all the extra stock that are calving down are milked through.Anyone that got the 200000 litres of quota as a new entrant and going milking a 100 or 200 cows need there head examined.For me anyway this year im going to milk another 5 to what i milked last year as i have picked up another 14000 ltrs of quota.Outside of that im going to make as much top quality silage as i can to replinish stocks

Dont be daft

maxxuumman wrote: »

Did they clear that much in Greenfields. I thought the profit was only 30 or 40k for the year

I'm quoting their gross profit figure.
That was before bank repayments, land rental etc.

I think their net was something like 25k but that was after 60k in land rental, 100k in wages and 85k in bank repayments (rough figures from memory).

If you had 300 odd acres and you followed their business model, so far you'd be doing pretty well for yourself.
But they've only been going 2 years and their yet to see a bad one.

ahshagit

and they give the contractor €40 a ton to spread stuff

delaval

ahshagit wrote: »

and they give the contractor €40 a ton to spread stuff

Per tonne/per hour?

6480

delaval wrote: »

Per tonne/per hour?

i cant understand how a woodchip pad could work from last october till up to roughly 3 weeks ago with all the rain we got this winter , woodchip is good at bedding calving pens and that but a woodchip pad would come into a animal welfare rule next

J DEERE

I think the biggest hurdle here is that your friend has no experience in dairying. He's in for a big wake up call if the figures are the only thing he is considering when going into it. Its the small things too that get overlooked like identifying mastitis, milk fever, bullings etc. Its the competence and knowledge of the farmer which determines whether or not a farm sinks or swims. I think even 40 or 50 cows to start would be too much of an undertaking without any experience

delaval

mahoney_j wrote: »

Yes delaval but rember with your pad you have the cost of woodchip which is rising and also milking cows can not be stood off or outwintered on it.And ur lagoon gathers an astronomical ammount of water which in most cases requires an umbillical slurry system to efficently empty it.whereas with a cubicle shed and concrete you have something which u can outwinter and stand off milking cows on and also have it fully paid off in 5 or 8 years or whatever suits.Last year the greenfield farm in kilkenny spent north of 14000 on woodchip as well as having to empty the lagoon twice.That aint sustinable.For me anyone that is getting into dairying needs to be 100% commited to it and not just test the water for a year or 2.Spend a reasonable ammount of money relative to your land block and cow nos,do,lots of research and for the next 2 years rember we are still have milk quotas and superlevy and large fines are going to be the norm if all the extra stock that are calving down are milked through.Anyone that got the 200000 litres of quota as a new entrant and going milking a 100 or 200 cows need there head examined.For me anyway this year im going to milk another 5 to what i milked last year as i have picked up another 14000 ltrs of quota.Outside of that im going to make as much top quality silage as i can to replinish stocks

I agree with you re pad. You cannot milk from them. Woodchip cost us €15/cow last year. I started with no capital or land and every penny went on quota. We leased land and had to winter all our cows on crops:mad: A pad was all we could afford and it felt like a hotel for us. We graze for 300+ days so I couldn't justify a cubicle house. We have cubicle housing for one third of the cows and find it fine. I agree about people needing to commit to the business for the future. If a new entrant with 200k litres milks 150+ cows for next 2 years they won't be there in 3 yrs. We are committed this next 2 years to holding numbers, reducing scc, soil fertility and top quality silage.

delaval

6480 wrote: »

i cant understand how a woodchip pad could work from last october till up to roughly 3 weeks ago with all the rain we got this winter , woodchip is good at bedding calving pens and that but a woodchip pad would come into a animal welfare rule next

We wouldn't put cows on till mid Dec and start calving early Feb so only fully stocked 6 wks. Believe it or not pads really perform well in wet weather, the worst weather is frost. Where are you going with this 'animal welfare' notion? Is it only to make your point?

st1979

delaval wrote: »

We wouldn't put cows on till mid Dec and start calving early Feb so only fully stocked 6 wks. Believe it or not pads really perform well in wet weather, the worst weather is frost. Where are you going with this 'animal welfare' notion? Is it only to make your point?

Agree about the wet. Think they need rain to wash the dung down. I had a small one for 2 years.