Syrio Forel (Series 1 Spolier)

Mousewar · 25-02-2013 9:43am #1

So I waited until I'd read the book to see if his death was done any differently. It's pretty much the same except he does a lot more damage in the book, seemingly killing rather than simply incapacitating all of the Lannister men before falling to the big final guy.

I had a problem with the death scene in the TV series and the book does little to resolve my problem. The guy is obviously an amazing swordsman (possibly the best - better than Jamie or Bronn??) but he dies because he only has a wooden sword and he has to fight a big guy with a proper longsword and full armour. So his little wooden paddle gets chopped in half and he dies.

But he's just taken down about five other men, all of whom had proper swords. How is it, that at no point, does it occur to this intelligent and always calm and thoughtful man, that he could pick up one of the several swords littered about the floor and defend himself properly? A really bizarre bit of writing to be honest.

Mickeroo · 25-02-2013 10:03am

Mousewar wrote: »

So I waited until I'd read the book to see if his death was done any differently. It's pretty much the same except he does a lot more damage in the book, seemingly killing rather than simply incapacitating all of the Lannister men before falling to the big final guy.

I had a problem with the death scene in the TV series and the book does little to resolve my problem. The guy is obviously an amazing swordsman (possibly the best - better than Jamie or Bronn??) but he dies because he only has a wooden sword and he has to fight a big guy with a proper longsword and full armour. So his little wooden paddle gets chopped in half and he dies.

But he's just taken down about five other men, all of whom had proper swords. How is it, that at no point, does it occur to this intelligent and always calm and thoughtful man, that he could pick up one of the several swords littered about the floor and defend himself properly? A really bizarre bit of writing to be honest.

He was a dead man either way, figured he would buy Arya some time to get away. The swords the guards dropped would have been too unwieldly for his bravosi/water dancer style of fighting too I guess.

Mousewar · 25-02-2013 10:19am

Mickeroo wrote: »

He was a dead man either way, figured he would buy Arya some time to get away. The swords the guards dropped would have been too unwieldly for his bravosi/water dancer style of fighting too I guess.

Thanks for the reply. I guess you're right that the longswords mightn't have suited him but still, I reckon he'd make do. Better than a wooden one surely. And I would have thought killing all the Lannister men rather then dying bravely would have bought Arya just as much time as falling to the last one. Just seemed like a needless death of a great character.

ArmaniJeanss · 25-02-2013 11:22am

Mickeroo wrote: »

He was a dead man either way, figured he would buy Arya some time to get away.

Mousewar wrote: »

Just seemed like a needless death of a great character.

"The first sword of Braavos does not die".

****

Unless GRRM has confirmed it isn't SFs fate still an unknown?

Mousewar · 25-02-2013 12:27pm

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

"The first sword of Braavos does not die".

****

Unless GRRM has confirmed it isn't SFs fate still an unknown?

Ah I see....

I like it!

Mickeroo · 25-02-2013 1:03pm

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

"The first sword of Braavos does not die".

****

Unless GRRM has confirmed it isn't SFs fate still an unknown?

I thought he did confirm it? It was one of the first things i googled after season 1

Hope I'm wrong though.

Boom_Bap · 25-02-2013 1:09pm

My interpretation of events after watching and reading is that Arya flees and hears clanking and screaming in the background. We dont actually get confirmation of Syrio's death, but it is implied.

It would have been a huge task to overcome a knight in full armour with a longsword with a broken wooden sword......but still possible.

Witcher · 25-02-2013 1:15pm

Unlikely he survived given that Meryn Trant is still around later.

username123 · 25-02-2013 1:28pm

Theres a good essay on this on the towerofthehand website.

The basic conspiracy theory is that Syrio Forel survived (what do we say to the god of death? Not today), and that he may in fact be Jaqen H'ghar. Its a fun theory but most likely not true.

However, the main point is, we are never given any confirmation that Syrio Forel is dead. We see him left in a very bad situation with a broken wooden sword facing Ser Meryn Trant who was fully armoured up with a proper sword.

Gbear · 25-02-2013 5:04pm

username123 wrote: »

Theres a good essay on this on the towerofthehand website.

The basic conspiracy theory is that Syrio Forel survived (what do we say to the god of death? Not today), and that he may in fact be Jaqen H'ghar. Its a fun theory but most likely not true.

However, the main point is, we are never given any confirmation that Syrio Forel is dead. We see him left in a very bad situation with a broken wooden sword facing Ser Meryn Trant who was fully armoured up with a proper sword.

Maybe he's a faceless man, killed Trant and stole his face?

That's about the only explanation I can see (aside from the obvious) for why Trant survives and Forel is never spoken of again.

jones · 25-02-2013 5:33pm

I think its quite clear he is dead...he was a great character and while reading the book i was hoping he'd pop up again in one of the later ones

Lister1 · 27-02-2013 9:02am

Unless you see/hear of the body you cant assume his is dead. I believe he escaped and will make an appearance again...

Boom_Bap · 27-02-2013 10:32am

Lister1 wrote: »

Unless you see/hear of the body you cant assume his is dead. I believe he escaped and will make an appearance again...

Given that he was a water dancer, wearing no armour and quite nible i would expect that he could easily outrun or evade Meryn Trant.

Mousewar · 27-02-2013 10:39am

Boom_Bap wrote: »

Given that he was a water dancer, wearing no armour and quite nible i would expect that he could easily outrun or evade Meryn Trant.

How dare you! The first sword of Bravos never runs!

username123 · 27-02-2013 12:53pm

Boom_Bap wrote: »

Given that he was a water dancer, wearing no armour and quite nible i would expect that he could easily outrun or evade Meryn Trant.

+1

Syrio Forel could kick Meryn Trants ass anyway if he wanted to, but he could certainly outwit and outrun him.

Witcher · 27-02-2013 12:58pm

He's dead lads accept it:pac: GRRM said the guy isn't invincible and he doesnt know why the theory that he survived even exists as he thought he made it pretty clear what happened.

iamanengine · 04-03-2013 4:47pm

The idea that he is Jaqen is pretty cool and would make sense I suppose, but still it's unlikely.

I loved his character and wish he were still in GoT's but to bring him back now would be a bit far fetched, imo!

username123 · 12-12-2013 4:49pm

I rewatched this episode last night.

This time I noticed that when Arya ran away, we hear the clang/clash of metal on metal - but Syrio Forel only had a broken wooden sword and was wearing fabric clothes. So what made the clash of metal on metal?

Could he have picked up a dropped sword and kicked Meryn Trants ass?

beardedmaster · 12-12-2013 5:25pm

username123 wrote: »

I rewatched this episode last night.

This time I noticed that when Arya ran away, we hear the clang/clash of metal on metal - but Syrio Forel only had a broken wooden sword and was wearing fabric clothes. So what made the clash of metal on metal?

Could he have picked up a dropped sword and kicked Meryn Trants ass?

I think that was the sound of fighting going on elsewhere.

Gbear · 12-12-2013 5:46pm

username123 wrote: »

I rewatched this episode last night.

This time I noticed that when Arya ran away, we hear the clang/clash of metal on metal - but Syrio Forel only had a broken wooden sword and was wearing fabric clothes. So what made the clash of metal on metal?

Could he have picked up a dropped sword and kicked Meryn Trants ass?

Unlikely given that Meryn isn't dead.

username123 · 12-12-2013 6:50pm

Gbear wrote: »

Unlikely given that Meryn isn't dead.

I meant, kicked his ass and ran. Unlikely he would have stayed long enough to kill him seeing as the rest of the Lannister men would have been coming round from bring knocked out with the wooden sword. Meryn never says what happened, he could have been embarrassed if he got his ass whipped by Syrio.

I don't think it was the sounds of fighting elsewhere. Within the castle the Lannisters just wanted to secure the Starks, the whole castle wasn't in a battle.

iamanengine · 12-12-2013 6:55pm

I want to believe...

username123 · 12-12-2013 6:58pm

iamanengine wrote: »

I want to believe...

Me too.

It's funny, all the different deaths, but so many people want Syrio Forel to be alive! He was just a cool dude.

Not today.

Liam McPoyle · 13-12-2013 8:10am

For those saying that Trant is still alive therefore Forel must be dead, perhaps Trant was incapacitated, knocked unconcious say and Forel made his escape.

As someone else said, unless we see a body anything is possible in GRRM's world.

Just so!

Mousewar · 13-12-2013 9:16am

From what I hear, Martin is pretty surprised that anyone raises the idea of Forel still being alive. I don't think he even realised he was leaving any doubt on the matter.
He dead.

username123 · 13-12-2013 9:24am

Mousewar wrote: »

From what I hear, Martin is pretty surprised that anyone raises the idea of Forel still being alive. I don't think he even realised he was leaving any doubt on the matter.
He dead.

Linky?

Edit - I found this:

George said in 2005 when asked directly if Syrio Forel was dead or not:
Draw your own conclusions.

Dick Whitman · 29-12-2013 2:34am

I only watch the show haven't read the books. Even though they left it open enough that he could have survived, I think if he did I wouldn't like it even though I loved ould Syrio.

In series 2 when:

Davos got blown off the boat with the wildfire I thought it was unreal..even better than killing off main characters that they'd have secondary stories like that end just as easy..he was one of my favorites like Syrio but that's no reason to keep him alive..

IMO it would be cheating if he lived..only conceivable way is if he ran and as someone already said the first sword of Bravos does not run!!

MiloYossarian · 11-03-2014 11:56am

He didn't pick up the sword because water dancing is not just a fighting style but a way of life. It would have contravened his entire character if he picked up the broad sword. He also did it to buy Arya some time.

The theory that he is Jaqen H'ghar is a really cool one. However, I've always been fairly certain he is dead. I think this thread arose from wishful thinking. I loved him too, and was very disappointed, upset even, when he died.

username123 · 11-03-2014 11:58am

MiloYossarian wrote: »

He didn't pick up the sword because water dancing is not just a fighting style but a way of life. It would have contravened his entire character if he picked up the broad sword.

So what made the clash of metal on metal after Arya ran away?

MiloYossarian · 11-03-2014 12:23pm

username123 wrote: »

So what made the clash of metal on metal after Arya ran away?

Was it mentioned in the book? Lets not forget that it is a television production and mistakes happen all the time. But the most likely answer is, the clash of metal was a result of the battle going on all around, the Stark men, and all the people working for the Starks were being slaughtered.

username123 · 11-03-2014 12:31pm

MiloYossarian wrote: »

Was it mentioned in the book? Lets not forget that it is a television production and mistakes happen all the time. But the most likely answer is, the clash of metal was a result of the battle going on all around, the Stark men, and all the people working for the Starks were being slaughtered.

No, but we are specifically talking about the tv show - not the book.

Rewatch it, its clearly not the sound of metal on metal elsewhere, it is the clash of metal on metal from the room where Syrio Forel is left with Meryn Trant.

MiloYossarian · 11-03-2014 1:16pm

It doesn't matter whether it's the book or the television show, the original point is the same, it completely goes against his philosophy. It would have been completely out of character. He is dead.

I loved him, I thought he was a great character and I didn't want him to die. Like I already said, I was upset when it happened. I suppose that we should be praising Martin's writing, for giving us such good characters, even minor characters, that we mourn when they are lost.

Syrio Forel (Series 1 Spolier)

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