Nacarat and First Lieutenant discussion

hucklebuck

The Hidden Cyclone thread was closed due to petulant name calling and being off topic so I am opening this thread so I can reply to the post with the childish name calling in it!

Huntley has been posting in every thread that I called First Lieutenant a handicapper and as usual he looked for an argument rather than actually looking at the words I posted, this is my post and it's plain to see it was a 3 mile chasing discussion:

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=82097638&postcount=82

On this point I said "can't see him winning any big races", to date he still has not won any big 3 mile chases.

I also stated that "reckon handicaps is where he will end up" for anyone with even a basic grasp of English knows end up to mean "eventually" and not "currently"

My opinion of him as a 3 miler chaser was reinforced here:

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=82116805&postcount=88

I stated my reasoning for this was in that save for Denman in the 5 years before the 2012 RSA the winners/ runners up have all gotten injured or regressed hugely.

I find it curious Huntley that if he felt he was a top drawer 3 miler that you would not back him for the Gold Cup. :pac:

Now for Nacarat, in your usual style you jumped into a discussion calling me foolish for saying Nacarat is not a 3 miler and in response to my question if he got home yesterday you posted:

"I wouldn't judge whether a horse gets 3 miles on one race, the various graded successes might be a good place to start though.

In any case your pitiful argument at the time was supposedly aided by connections decision to run him over shorter in his most recent races suggesting they felt the same. Tom George said today "the horse obviously gets 3 miles" but what does he know." (http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=83370713&postcount=419)

I had already address this before yesterdays race:

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=82935083&postcount=304

"Tom George said today "the horse obviously gets 3 miles" but what does he know."

Nice bit of paraphrasing there, he also said he loves Kempton and the good ground would help.

You might want to look at the above link and add the 62L he got beaten on good ground yesterday.

For someone who constantly rubbishes other people assessment of race I find it laughable that you ignore the obvious evidence that he only gets 3 miles on a flat track on good ground and even in his most recent run he got hammered 62 lengths.

I await your response and remember we are adults.

Hulk Hands

To be fair Hucklebuck, you called FL a grade 3 horse. He is certainly a grade 1 horse, and is probably top class over 2 1/2 miles. His run in the Lexus also showed that he will be up to winning a grade 1 over 3 miles in future. The Gold Cup isn't run over 3 miles, so you can't talk about his merits in that race in the context of him being an excellent 3 mile chaser. He's a very very good horse and was just unlucky to run into an excellent Bob's Worth last year. He has also won a grade 1 at the festival over hurdles. He'll be a big player in whatever race he goes for

klairondavis

Hulk Hands wrote: »

To be fair Hucklebuck, you called FL a grade 3 horse. He is certainly a grade 1 horse, and is probably top class over 2 1/2 miles. His run in the Lexus also showed that he will be up to winning a grade 1 over 3 miles in future. The Gold Cup isn't run over 3 miles, so you can't talk about his merits in that race in the context of him being an excellent 3 mile chaser. He's a very very good horse and was just unlucky to run into an excellent Bob's Worth last year. He has also won a grade 1 at the festival over hurdles. He'll be a big player in whatever race he goes for

Beating a future Champion Hurdler no less

hucklebuck

Hulk Hands wrote: »

To be fair Hucklebuck, you called FL a grade 3 horse. He is certainly a grade 1 horse, and is probably top class over 2 1/2 miles. His run in the Lexus also showed that he will be up to winning a grade 1 over 3 miles in future. The Gold Cup isn't run over 3 miles, so you can't talk about his merits in that race in the context of him being an excellent 3 mile chaser. He's a very very good horse and was just unlucky to run into an excellent Bob's Worth last year. He has also won a grade 1 at the festival over hurdles. He'll be a big player in whatever race he goes for

My assessment of him was in early December in a thread about the Hennessy and Gold Cup prospect and as stated above "reckon handicaps is where he will end up", a lot of grade 3's are handicaps.

In the 2011 Lexus, then RSA and the Jnwine performances there was something I did not like about the horse. He then goes out and getting a 1lb off Bobs Worth he ended up getting beaten even further by him. I would not rate being behind Kauto Stone as rock solid top class form. He was also rated 159 at the time I posted the comment and I did state he would need to improve a stone to win the Gold Cup.

It's looking quite possible the trips were beyond him but I took the horse to be ungenuine rather than not seeing them out.

Following my comments he should have won the Lexus this year but he seemed to hit a wall or did not get home.

Admittedly I did under estimate his ability by calling him a grade 3 / handicapper but there was something I just did not fancy about his performances before the 2012 Lexus, he looked a different horse in the 2012 running. Being a spring horse or running in a trip too far seem reasonable assessments. And as I type I still think he hasn't a hope in the Gold Cup this year, he could be a long way behind given the extra 2f.

While this comment keeps being dragged up he still has not won a big 3 mile race and there is only so many time a horse can be beaten before they regress and end up running in grade 3 races.

He could well win the Ryanair but he will most likely need to run 168+ to win it due to the Sprinter Sacre effect.

I wouldn't use a hurdle race to assess a chaser either, Al Ferof beat Sprinter in the Supreme and we all know what happened in their 2 mile chase meeting.

Hoofer

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hoofer
First Lieutenant 20-1 RSA chase, out of presenting so better ground a major factor for this horse,backed him heavily in neptune last year, backed china rock in 2009, came 4th, backed venalmar 2008, came 2nd by a neck..i nearly collapsed watching it from the club enclosure..gutted.F L is proven around cheltenham, mouse will relish the challenge to improve his jumping and to have him spot on for the day and have a right crack at it..thats why Davy Russell wont get off him for any other Gigginstown horse..hes thinking ahead to the olympics...get on lads

You replied:
"I will be avoiding him like the plague, the ground was good in Leopardstown on the 28th by the way"

Now he wasnt far away was he last year huckleback at big price?...definetely a grade 1 horse..he was beaten by a very good horse in bobs worth..F.L is well proven around Cheltenham and relishes the undulated track..that was a fantastic race last year with both horses pulling clear around the home turn.... but he has few little niggly problems but Mouse once again will have him right come cheltenham.. !

Huntley

hucklebuck wrote: »

I find it curious Huntley that if he felt he was a top drawer 3 miler that you would not back him for the Gold Cup. :pac:

Are you genuinely serious? Why would that make you curious? I'd probably back around 5 horses in this years Gold Cup if I backed every horse who I felt was top class. I've continually stated he is a Ryanair horse anyway, but wouldn't disgrace himself if he lined up in the Gold Cup but lacks staying power. I'm not sure why I'm explaining myself when I am faced with the above rubbish.

You seem to be trying to spin it now that you said the horse would be a handicapper over 3 miles but never said how good he could be over shorter. If you thought he was going to be a handicapper over 3 miles you wouldn't have been open to the idea that he could be a grade 1 horse over 2m 5f. You aren't fooling anybody, it is clear as day what you thought of the horse.

hucklebuck wrote: »

For someone who constantly rubbishes other people assessment of race I find it laughable that you ignore the obvious evidence that he only gets 3 miles on a flat track on good ground and even in his most recent run he got hammered 62 lengths.

The majority of horses need certain conditions to excel and show their true ability, Nacarat is no different.

At the time when this arouse you stated that Nacarat does not get 3 miles. You did not state NAcarat needs his conditions, or doesn't get 3 miles in deep ground, you said the horse doesn't get 3 miles. That is blatantly incorrect.

In regard to the horses losing distances that you seem intent on pursuing, I highlighted that his running style leaves him susceptible to being beaten because he generally gives his all from the start. He lacks class aswell to an extent so when he is running full pelt in a Grade 1 contest it isn't surprising that he suffers and gets soundly beaten. He made a bad mistake on Saturday and never recovered, how you could even pretend that is a serious marker on his ability to get 3 miles is absurd.

You continue to outdo yourself hucklebuck, but I'm probably the bigger fool for replying. I'd hear sounder analysis from a corpse to be honest.

This thread is an embarrassment, it merely highlights your pitiful attempts to justify your blatant inaccuracies once again. I'm surprised this was even tolerated, even more surprising is that you haven't requested its closure to save yourself further embarrassment.

UrbanSea

I'm surprised that I let it go on too, this tit for tat is getting a shade irritating and I don't think there's a worthwhile reason to leave this open.


If ye wish to continue this friendly discussion feel free to do so by PM or perhaps meet up for a pint.