nursing to sleep problems

scaryfairy

hi,

we have been having sleep problems from day one... LO is 4.5 months, great little fella, but we have not been doing too well in the sleep department. I would be nursing him to sleep at night, and then he would wake up every 1.5-2 hours, which is not as bad as it sounds as we are cosleeping, and can go back to sleep quite easily. The bigger problem is with naps: nursing to sleep doesn't work during the day (which I would be happy to do). He used to nap in a wrap (stopped a week ago: my back just couldn't take it any more), and now in the buggy, but if I let's say walk him to sleep, he wakes up 20 min after being put down, crying. I cannot always go out walking with the buggy 5-7 miles / day (ie when raining + windy) to get him the 3-4 hours he needs a day.

I asked 2 sleep advisors and both said the nursing to sleep association must be broken at night, and then he would go to sleep for his naps too. Dunno. A few days ago I started just comforting him (lying next to him, putting hand on his chest, talking etc) in the evening without nursing, and now he falls asleep after crying for "only" 10 mins, but wakes up after an hour crying again (our nursing sessions used to be so peaceful...). Brakes my heart. and I still don't know whether naps would work or I am just torturing him for nothing.

So I suppose I would like to hear from anyone with a similar experience - my aim really is just to get him to take his naps but don't know how to get there.

ps: tried the Pantley things - no luck...

How Strange

Oh dear! It's hard to know what's the right thing to do especially when you're sleep deprived yourself.

At 4.5 months I'd recommend continuing with the feeding to sleep if it's working for you. Why put the two of you through the stress of changing something which suited you.

As for naps, my son would very rarely sleep in a cot or bed for his daytime naps at that age. I used to being him out for a walk at those times and he'd pop off to sleep. He only started napping properly at 6 months when he started crèche and as he got older he needed the structure of proper naps so I made sure to be at home to put him into his cot for a nap. But that was definitely after 6 months.

I read somewhere that you can do whatever you like up to 6 or 7 months and then try to put a more firm routine in place. My son would seem to go along with that theory as he now loves his routine but we hadn't any as such up to 6 months.

Finally there is a 4 month sleep regression where even the babies that used to sleep 8hours straight at night start waking ever hour or so. We went through it and then a couple of huge developmental leaps straight after (google the wonder weeks) so from 4-6 months a good nights sleep was a very rare thing.

Julo12

Sounds the exact same as my lo up to about 6 mths. Walking for naps is not ideal in this weather but I found my one wud fall asleep after about 10 mins of walking and we'd come back to the house and she wud usually stay asleep in the hall for a decent nap. On an awful day I'd bring her out in the car to a shopping centre, to visit or just for a drive. My family thought I was crazy and wasting petrol but it was less stress for me than not getting any naps and having a cranky baby all day.
I worried for ages about feeding to sleep but she seemed to want to stop it herself after about 6 mths when she started getting really active and was knackered at bedtime!! I'm now still trying to get her to nap in her cot at 7.5 mths but she doesn't sleep near as well as when we walked or drove and still puts up quite a fight so sometimes we don't quite stick to this!
So I'd say stick with whatever u think works at night and then try find something that works for u best during the day and don't worry about what it is as baby will be ready to change again in a few mths!

mary1978

I had a similar problem at around 3 months. we ended up using the ferber technique / controlled crying at just under 4 months and it worked brilliantly.
although it was tough for a few naps, it worked and we now just put our lo in the cot and he falls asleep on his own. that was almost 4 months ago now and we still are so glad we did it as he is SO much happier now (although at the time it was a tough decision as no-one wants there baby to be crying).

lazygal

Would also recommend trying some form of controlled crying. I had to change from nursing to sleep for naps and it took a week of hard work but the results were brilliant. It also led to better night sleeping as we introduced it at night at about six months and she seemed to realise after a few nights what the score was. She's been a dream sleeper since then. Controlled crying is worth thinking about. I know some people don't like it but anyone I know with a good sleeper has used some form of it at some stage.

How Strange

By the way, the technique of controlled crying is not recommended for babies under 6 months as they could be waking for hunger, growth spurts etc.

wmpdd3

I couldnt get out with my second so I used to put him in the kitchen/diner with the curtains closed. i'd roll him over the bump between the carpet and the lino! It started with me rolling him for 5 mins, in the end it was 15 rolls over the bump then leave the room.

If he didnt pop of within 5 mins, he usually had a dirty nappy or was too cold. I'd fix him and do 15 more rolls.

No crying involved.

1hr was the standard nap.

He'd always wake 20 mins after a walk outside too, I just presumed it was because of the noise of his sister.

In the night I nursed to sleep and co-slept until he was 6 months.

I moved him into the cot for naps with the mobile at around 6 months too, (when he managed to wiggle out of the straps in the buggy :0)

lazygal

How Strange wrote: »

By the way, the technique of controlled crying is not recommended for babies under 6 months as they could be waking for hunger, growth spurts etc.

I think you know waking for hunger vs habit with your baby though. I know our lass woke out of habit at night. Not every technique suits every baby either. We function better as parents when she sleeps properly for naps and at night and she's happier too. So no issues whatsoever here using it.

Oral Slang

I would definitely continue feeding to sleep at night if the baby is more settled & wouldn't suggest controlled crying that young. They cry for a reason generally at that age, be it from hunger, silent reflux, pains, etc. as How Strange suggested and using that technique will just stress out a small baby. Routines tend to fall in place as they get a bit bigger. I never thought I'd get a proper bedtime, but my little one just fell into one between 7 & 8. My little one was awful for naps for a long time too, but now will fall asleep in the buggy or carseat for whoevers minding her, or will feed to sleep for me on my days off or at the weekend if I want her to.

lounakin

The same thing happened to my girl, at around 4 months the naps started to be nightmarish and she wouldn't nurse to sleep. To me it was obvious something in her had changed and she was entering another phase and trying to adjust to it. It will pass.
What we did was to rock her to sleep, we'd take turns with my partner, sometimes it would take ages and my back was killing me. But we soon got a routine back. She changed again a couple of months later though and we had to find another way.
My point of view now is if something stops working, look for another way.
I would not do the cry it out technique on such a young baby. Please don't do it, even the person who invented the technique says you shouldn't try before 6 months as they don't have the ability to soothe themselves.
Nursing to sleep is sometimes regarded as a bad habit but I don't agree. It stopped working for us for weeks but she's back doing that at night and for naps, except now she puts herself to sleep from drowsy.
We did the Ferber method around 9 months, it worked very well for us and gave her very good habits. Falling asleep is no longer an issue... at least for now!

scaryfairy

hi all

sorry I couldn't write sooner, I was alone all day with the LO. Just want to say your responses make me feel so much better - I have been all wrapped up in this whole thing, of trying to make him sleep better during the day, that could not see beyond the bedroom. And the sleep people, and the books can be so dogmatic.
I was going to give up on getting him used to falling asleep without the boob but then the day before yesterday I discovered that when I whisper in his ears (some silly nonsense about a trip to the land of dreams) he calms down, and falls asleep without crying. Yesterday, I repeated to him a lullaby/poem like 10 times, and he didn't cry at all, just held his little hands on my face and "talked" to me for 5 minute (aaa, ooo, aoooo, quietly), before drifting off slowly... I am not sure what exaclty I have achieved by this, but at least I know one more way of soothing the little man. Btw, I wasn't going to do any CIO etc (not criticising anyone who has done), I am holding him in my arms...

I think my strategy/philosophy will have to be of what lounakin was saying: when something stops working, find another way... for now it's the buggy outdoors, will have to find another way when it starts raining

wmpdd3

ha, ha funny isnt how ypu discover things. Wiith my daughter i used to sing happy birthday to her to get her to know it was sleep time. It was the only song i could think of. Funny thing was it stopped working as she reached 11 months and had no idea why we were singing it to her on her actual birthday.

mary1978

How Strange wrote: »

By the way, the technique of controlled crying is not recommended for babies under 6 months as they could be waking for hunger, growth spurts etc.

that is unlikely if the problem is during the daytime naps though. i think the op's problem is that her baby won't fall asleep by themselves for their naps, and needs a "prop" , such as pram or nursing (as opposed to that the baby is waking from the nap from hunger).

that is why we used the ferber - not for night wakings, (when he prob was hungry at 3 mon), but because our baby couldn't fall asleep on his own during the day so i would spend hours nursing to sleep for naps only for him to wake the moment he was put in the cot and he was exhausted and cranky.
a few naps of controlled crying and our baby had it sorted and had learned to "self soothe", so after his feed we would put him into cot and he would have a lovely long nap and be in great form on waking.

liliq

What exactly is 'self- soothing' though? This is where I get stuck on any type of method that leaves a baby crying.
I get images of babies rocking themselves to sleep (like a mini psych patient stereotype) or contorting to rub their own back- trying to do what a parent would do to soothe a baby.
Crying isn't self soothing... You wouldn't say an adult that is upset is self soothing?

lounakin

liliq wrote: »

What exactly is 'self- soothing' though? This is where I get stuck on any type of method that leaves a baby crying.
I get images of babies rocking themselves to sleep (like a mini psych patient stereotype) or contorting to rub their own back- trying to do what a parent would do to soothe a baby.
Crying isn't self soothing... You wouldn't say an adult that is upset is self soothing?

To me self soothing is the ability for a baby to realise they can fall asleep without being 'put' to sleep by a parent. Before we did the method with Z, she would be tired but unable to let go and would cry and cry, not knowing how to just come to terms with the situation. It's as though she didn't know what to do and we had to litterally put her to sleep by outlasting her. Now, when she's tired she shows me she wants to be put down, she closes her eyes and starts falling asleep on her own after a pleasant nursing session. Self-soothing doesn't describe the crying, self-soothing is the skill you acquire. Crying is the side-effect of learning. With the method the baby is NOT supposed to be crying at all after a few days.

mary1978

liliq wrote: »

What exactly is 'self- soothing' though? This is where I get stuck on any type of method that leaves a baby crying.
I get images of babies rocking themselves to sleep (like a mini psych patient stereotype) or contorting to rub their own back- trying to do what a parent would do to soothe a baby.
Crying isn't self soothing... You wouldn't say an adult that is upset is self soothing?

I agree with what Lounakin says. Of course the baby isn't meant to cry every single nap. they just cry for the start of a few naps (for me the baby cried at the start of 5 naps and then learned). Then they basically just learn how to allow themselves to fall asleep without whatever prop they have been needing. After that the baby goes into the cot happy and awake and falls to sleep with no stress or tears etc.

lounakin

For me it didn't work with naps! We stopped right away but after a couple of weeks doing it at night she spontaneously started doing it at naptime. For us it only took 2 times for her to learn, appart from the 4th night when they tend to revert because they realise the pattern!

lynski

I realised at about 7mths that my son had stopped nursing to sleep and i was sad. he still has a feed at bedtime and usually around midnight (he is 2 now) but not actually falling asleep 'on the boob'. hold rock comfort whatever they need, the time is so short - it feels long, but next thing you know they are too big to sit on your lap and you feel like you have only blinked.

Guest1111

Do you have a routine which you give your baby before nap times? If not, you should start a mini bedtime type routine. Babies love consistency and when you do this they will start to learn that this is a cue for a sleep and know what is ahead of them.

Have you read the babywhisperer books? I think they are great and it stays away from the CIO method, a method I am not found of and personally with my 4.5 month old have not needed to use.

She speaks of the PUPD (pick up put down) method. Basically you should put your baby into his/her cot when they are still awake (and drousy if possible but not asleep) and allow them to sleep themselves. A baby which is not used to this method will cry as in to say, mam i'm not used to this, this is not how we do it. When the child cries, you pick them up and comfort them and age dependent put them down (when the child is young, you comfort them until they stop crying and when older put them back in crying). The idea is that the child knows you are there and is comforted that you are there. With CIO, you leave the room and come back in intervals. Each person is different and I've heard of success stories with CIO but it wasnt for us.

Rose35

All of these methods fill me with dread, i have to start soon, my 7 month old has never fallen off to sleep by himself, he always needs his bottle and then put down carefully into cot. He is very determined and i cant imagine him taking well to any of these methods, but i feel so guilty that he cant fall off to sleep unaided.

Guest1111

Hi Rose35, I can imagine how you feel but if you are consistent with training, it can take from as little as three days to change bad habits. You just cant go back to the old way even when the child is crying.

liliq

Rose35 wrote: »

All of these methods fill me with dread, i have to start soon, my 7 month old has never fallen off to sleep by himself, he always needs his bottle and then put down carefully into cot. He is very determined and i cant imagine him taking well to any of these methods, but i feel so guilty that he cant fall off to sleep unaided.

He's still only very young, you've nothing to feel guilty about! Making
Sure he feels secure is a good thing!
Sleep is a developmental thing, when he's ready to sleep by himself, to fall asleep himself, and to sleep through the night- he will.

wmpdd3

You have nothing to be guilty about, my 2 year old has never gone to sleep with out her bottle, she now sleeps with an empty bottle, she doesnt even suck it but it goes to bed with her.

Rose35

Just to share my experience, as i was totally terrified at the thoughts of placing my 8 month old in his cot if he wasnt asleep, he used to just roar the house down, and it was really bothering me on when and how I was going to break this habit, we then moved house and he got his own room and new cot and since then I can leave him down and he will chat for a while with himself and stir around a bit but he now can get himself off to sleep and we are all much happier bunny's !!!!! It was hard at first as I just wanted to go back in and pick him up but I held myself back and just kept an eye on him on the monitor - feel very rested today!!!