Student Travel/Leap Card: Confiscation?

lucernarian

Was just reading through the T&Cs of the Student Travelcard. There is a part relating to misuse where officials of the main travel transport companies are able to confiscate the card. There is a part which I noted in particular, "and you will not receive a refund of any remaining Travel Credit.".

Given that the leap card can be used for entirely separate services (i.e. different to confiscating a Dublin Bus Rambler ticket from misuse) and that I can't recall any legal basis in the bye-laws for the confiscation of an arbitrary amount of credit loaded on a card (better put, any fines allowed for misuse are of a fixed nature aka the standard fare, unless it goes to district court), is the provision above actually legal or enforceable?

The leap card website says that credit on the card "may" not be refunded which at least doesn't sound like a cast-iron guarantee.

Link to student travelcard T&Cs: http://www.studenttravelcard.ie/Utilities/TermsAndConditions.aspx

El Inho

If you read all terms and conditions youll find things like this...lifes too short OP....let it go..

its likely theyll never confiscate anything.

lucernarian

El Spearo wrote: »

If you read all terms and conditions youll find things like this...lifes too short OP....let it go..

its likely theyll never confiscate anything.

Let what go?? I don't even have a leap card or current student travelcard.

Losty Dublin

To_be_confirmed wrote: »

Was just reading through the T&Cs of the Student Travelcard. There is a part relating to misuse where officials of the main travel transport companies are able to confiscate the card. There is a part which I noted in particular, "and you will not receive a refund of any remaining Travel Credit.".

Given that the leap card can be used for entirely separate services (i.e. different to confiscating a Dublin Bus Rambler ticket from misuse) and that I can't recall any legal basis in the bye-laws for the confiscation of an arbitrary amount of credit loaded on a card (better put, any fines allowed for misuse are of a fixed nature aka the standard fare, unless it goes to district court), is the provision above actually legal or enforceable?

The leap card website says that credit on the card "may" not be refunded which at least doesn't sound like a cast-iron guarantee.

Link to student travelcard T&Cs: http://www.studenttravelcard.ie/Utilities/TermsAndConditions.aspx

There are personalised leap cards in operation for students; use of them are subject to Leap Card T+Cs.

schemingbohemia

To_be_confirmed wrote: »

Let what go?? I don't even have a leap card or current student travelcard.

Wow what an exciting life you lead, checking T&C's for something you don't even have. :rolleyes:

lucernarian

Losty Dublin wrote: »

There are personalised leap cards in operation for students; use of them are subject to Leap Card T+Cs.

Yes, and I said the Leap Card T&Cs make a slightly different but important distinction. In the case of the Student Travelcard (which is a for-profit outfit selling access to discounted tickets), they state that they will more-or-less confiscate whatever credit you have on the Leap card and possibly even if that amount could exceed the cost of a standard fare.

Given that this private company profit from this use of discounted travel and that the transport providers might not even share in those profits, I think it's unjustifiable that they could take any or all of the credit on the card in the case of infringements which already have very specific punishments.

Also, perhaps it's because of the T&Cs that I didn't get such a card???

Losty Dublin

To_be_confirmed wrote: »

Yes, and I said the Leap Card T&Cs make a slightly different but important distinction. In the case of the Student Travelcard (which is a for-profit outfit selling access to discounted tickets), they state that they will more-or-less confiscate whatever credit you have on the Leap card and possibly even if that amount could exceed the cost of a standard fare.

Given that this private company profit from this use of discounted travel and that the transport providers might not even share in those profits, I think it's unjustifiable that they could take any or all of the credit on the card in the case of infringements which already have very specific punishments.

Also, perhaps it's because of the T&Cs that I didn't get such a card???

My understanding is that Leap own the card and their T+C cover misuse of Leap; there are also T+C's in place for misuse of the Student Travel card scheme. . If either card is going to be confiscated it's done with good cause so it's as if you are being ripped off or anything.

monument

schemingbohemia wrote: »

Wow what an exciting life you lead, checking T&C's for something you don't even have. :rolleyes:

Banned for five days.

Personal abuse is not going to be tolerated around here.

Please do not reply to this post or the post that got schemingbohemia banned.

Dravokivich

Well, quickly searching for "confisc" on leapcards T&Cs I found this:

10.4 Any attempted use of a personalised Leap Card by a person not entitled to use that card may result in the confiscation of the Leap Card and may result in the Leap Card customer being charged the appropriate standard fare in respect of the improper use (as determined by the relevant Transport Operator) and you may not be entitled to receive a refund of any Travel Credit. If your Leap Card is confiscated please refer to the relevant Transport Operator.

It's the only part within the T&Cs that the word "confiscation" is used and implies that Leap have no part in any confiscations, nor will they act as a mediator in returning/replacing one that has been confiscated.

lucernarian

Dravokivich wrote: »

Well, quickly searching for "confisc" on leapcards T&Cs I found this:



It's the only part within the T&Cs that the word "confiscation" is used and implies that Leap have no part in any confiscations, nor will they act as a mediator in returning/replacing one that has been confiscated.

I've mentioned my issue about the credit on the cards a few times now, which could be a substantial amount for some people. My problem is not so much about the confiscation of a card itself...

Losty Dublin

To_be_confirmed wrote: »

I've mentioned my issue about the credit on the cards a few times now, which could be a substantial amount for some people. My problem is not so much about the confiscation of a card itself...

If I lent you my Annual pass I'd run the risk of it being confiscated without a refund if it is inspected and found to be abused. I fail to see why misuse of a Leap card should be treated any different, credit or no credit.

Dravokivich

To_be_confirmed wrote: »

I've mentioned my issue about the credit on the cards a few times now, which could be a substantial amount for some people. My problem is not so much about the confiscation of a card itself...

Aye, I get that, the comment I copied includes a reference to "Travel Credit" which would be the balance on the card. It's vague and states "may" because they aren't involved in it. The comment states one would need to contact the Transport Operator who confiscated the card, they aren't going to dictate another parties processes.

lucernarian

Losty Dublin wrote: »

If I lent you my Annual pass I'd run the risk of it being confiscated without a refund if it is inspected and found to be abused. I fail to see why misuse of a Leap card should be treated any different, credit or no credit.

Exactly. I don't necessarily have a problem with that, partially because the annual pass has a fixed value (albeit a significant one) whereas the amount remaining on a card is arbitrary. More importantly, such a punishment has the legal backing of the 1986 Act and others giving CIE its teeth and the bye-laws of CIE clearly set forth the procedure and maximum punishments for an offence.

Again, let me clarify: The physical confiscation of a card for unauthorised use is not something I have a problem with in principle but the intentional witholding of credit paid for by a customer who happens to have broken a rule which already has a long-standing punishment like the issuing of a Standard Fare, seems very questionable and without legal backing.

Carawaystick

The quote from the t&c's seems to imply that if someone stole your card and used it, then leap could keep your credit, which appears to be benefitting from a crime, which is hardly right.
I suppose you should top up by credit card, you may have recourse to get your money back off cc, and a chargeback fee will affect leap

AlekSmart

To_be_confirmed wrote: »

Exactly. I don't necessarily have a problem with that, partially because the annual pass has a fixed value (albeit a significant one) whereas the amount remaining on a card is arbitrary. More importantly, such a punishment has the legal backing of the 1986 Act and others giving CIE its teeth and the bye-laws of CIE clearly set forth the procedure and maximum punishments for an offence.

Again, let me clarify: The physical confiscation of a card for unauthorised use is not something I have a problem with in principle but the intentional witholding of credit paid for by a customer who happens to have broken a rule which already has a long-standing punishment like the issuing of a Standard Fare, seems very questionable and without legal backing.

Mant things "seem" questionable,perhaps even this...however to establish the Legal Backing I would suggest a written letter to Leapcard and a copy to studentravelcard themselves requesting the legislative power for their actions.

Confiscation

Iarnród Éireann, LUAS, Dublin Bus and other carriers may confiscate the card in the case of misuse. In the case of confiscation, the cardholders name may be placed on a stoplist and a new card may not be issued for six months following confiscation and you will not receive a refund of any remaining Travel Credit. If the card is lost or stolen a new application must be made along with full payment. Student Travelcard operates a strict policy whereby no refunds will be made in respect of any overpayments for the Student Travelcard.

Lost or stolen cards
If the card is lost or stolen a new application must be made along with a full payment. Student Travelcard operates a strict policy whereby no refunds will be made in respect of any overpayments for the Student Travelcard.

All quite clear and,as you have demonstrated,perfectly capable of informing one's decision to avail of STC/LEAP or not.

You really do need the Horses Mouth for this.

monument

To_be_confirmed wrote: »

I've mentioned my issue about the credit on the cards a few times now, which could be a substantial amount for some people. My problem is not so much about the confiscation of a card itself...

So what?

Annual tickets worth over a grand can be confiscated -- nobody has that kind of amount on a Leap card.

Dravokivich

Carawaystick wrote: »

The quote from the t&c's seems to imply that if someone stole your card and used it, then leap could keep your credit, which appears to be benefitting from a crime, which is hardly right.
I suppose you should top up by credit card, you may have recourse to get your money back off cc, and a chargeback fee will affect leap

Stolen would be different, just quickly searching through the T&Cs I see:

2.8 Registered and Personalised Leap Card customers shall immediately report any lost or stolen cards to Leap Card Customer Care. Lost or stolen Leap Cards will be handled in accordance with section 14 below.

14. Loss or Theft 14.1 The Authority will provide either a replacement Leap Card or a refund (in accordance with section 7) to Registered Leap Card customers who report their Leap Card lost or stolen.

It bounces from section 7 back to 14 again to reference a 48hour lapse which leap may not reimburse any transactions used by stolen cards.

lucernarian

monument wrote: »

So what?

Annual tickets worth over a grand can be confiscated -- nobody has that kind of amount on a Leap card.

I think there should be a legal basis to punishments, especially where the exact consequences are undefined and vary from situation to situation. We're not talking about the misuse of a fixed ticket which has clear punishments written in legal terms and conditions. By stating that no monies or credit will be transferred back to you for an offence where the existing defined punishment is in fact just the confiscation of the card and a Standard Fare, they are going a step too far in my opinion.

If nothing else, surely common sense would tell you that the use of a card like that shouldn't mean that someone with €100 on a card will lose all credit on the card when the punishment was only a €50 Standard Fare along with confiscation of the card. People can have up to €150 on a card.

The "so what" is the fact that there seems no provision for such a vague punishment in CIE bye-laws as confiscating the credit on a travel card and the amount confiscated could be substantially higher than the Standard Fare. There are particulars involving an annual ticket whereby if there's misuse, it's more than likely due to impersonation by a relative or friend of the annual ticket holder. Which is why they must be used with special photo ID. Given how they cover all scheduled service of a company until they expire, how many kinds of infringements could someone with an annual ticket actually commit?

The annual ticket is a poor comparison (which you should know well) as the type of fare evasion etc. possible with an annual ticket is entirely different to what can happen with the issuance of single tickets from a leap card or from a wayfarer. Indeed, I suspect if someone used e.g. their annual DART ticket covering x zones and then used it to travel to Greystones, the punishment would in all likelihood be a Standard Fare, not confiscation of the ticket.

AlekSmart

To_be_confirmed wrote: »

I think there should be a legal basis to punishments.

The "so what" is the fact that there seems no provision for such a vague punishment in CIE bye-laws as confiscating the credit on a travel card and the amount confiscated could be substantially higher than the Standard Fare. There are particulars involving an annual ticket whereby if there's misuse, it's more than likely due to impersonation by a relative or friend of the annual ticket holder. Which is why they must be used with special photo ID. Given how they cover all scheduled service of a company until they expire, how many kinds of infringements could someone with an annual ticket actually commit?

The annual ticket is a poor comparison (which you should know well) as the type of fare evasion etc. possible with an annual ticket is entirely different to what can happen with the issuance of single tickets from a leap card or from a wayfarer. Indeed, I suspect if someone used e.g. their annual DART ticket covering x zones and then used it to travel to Greystones, the punishment would in all likelihood be a Standard Fare, not confiscation of the ticket.

At this point,notwithstanding the concerns about the various issues now surfacing,it rerally has to be remembered that we are talking about a VERY tiny number of instances (Unless the Student Body embrace Anarchy in toto).

It's quite clear that T_B_C regards this as quite the issue indeed,however,no amount of speculation,opinion or otherwise will serve to allay these fears other than having the NTA and the Companies concerned make an Official Statement on their Legal position.

Until this is clarified (a process which,I consider,to be a thoroughly unwarranted waste of resources) this thread could ramble forever onwards without ever reaching a valid conclusion.

lucernarian

AlekSmart wrote: »

At this point,notwithstanding the concerns about the various issues now surfacing,it rerally has to be remembered that we are talking about a VERY tiny number of instances (Unless the Student Body embrace Anarchy in toto).

It's quite clear that T_B_C regards this as quite the issue indeed,however,no amount of speculation,opinion or otherwise will serve to allay these fears other than having the NTA and the Companies concerned make an Official Statement on their Legal position.

Until this is clarified (a process which,I consider,to be a thoroughly unwarranted waste of resources) this thread could ramble forever onwards without ever reaching a valid conclusion.

What, in the name of all creation, has Anarchy got to do with this?! And the fascination in bold with the mays and mights and shoulds in my post, it almost suggests you're trying to tell me something, mad as I'm sure that notion is. As I'm not a solicitor I can't use boards to make judgements on legal matters. What I can do is ask the experienced minds and posters here to inform us all of some aspect or fact to this that I've left out or indeed that Leap left out in doing their T&Cs

Thankfully neither you nor I get to decide on whether it is "a thoroughly unwarranted waste of resources". I mean, imagine if we didn't have a situation where a discount card company could arbitrarily take as much or as little money as it likes (to a limit of €150) on top of the fines as prescribed by the transport operators for misuse:rolleyes:

I really am gobsmacked at the attitude of some posters here over this. I wonder if instead of emailing them today about this ambiguity, I should post them a present and a thank you note for being able to take whatever leap credit people have, on top of a fixed penalty for any infringement!

Anyway the key part so far is that Leap themselves decide on what happens with leap credit along with the transport operator involved, not Student Travelcard. So at least they don't ensure the loss of this credit and in all likelihood it probably covers situations for using leap credit to pay the standard fare.

Dravokivich

To_be_confirmed wrote: »

Anyway the key part so far is that Leap themselves decide on what happens with leap credit along with the transport operator involved, not Student Travelcard. So at least they don't ensure the loss of this credit and in all likelihood it probably covers situations for using leap credit to pay the standard fare.

They don't. The T&Cs I copied initially pretty much stated leap want no involvement in any disputes arising out of transport operators confiscating cards and is for the person who had it confiscated, to take it up with the transport operator directly.

They appear to see it as an issue between the person using the card and the transport operator.

I get you are basing your query around the standard fare, but the idea about confiscating the card, isn't due to someone who doesn't pay for a journey, but someone who has a card, that they shouldn't have. The key part of that section:

" Any attempted use of a personalised Leap Card by a person not entitled to use that card "

These are cards, with pictures on them, which visibly show who should be the user. If it's not the user, there's a chance that card may be taken by an inspector.

Section 10 also seems to cover transferring cards to other users and states that personalised cards are non transferable. So there should be no point in time, when you provide your personalised/student travel card to someone else for them to use. Doing so means you'd break the T&Cs, which allows Leap to cancel the card (according to the last section of the T&Cs). However it doesn't state anything there specifically about withholding the remainder of your credit balance. But this could be already covered by the loose mention of "you may not be entitled to receive a refund of any Travel Credit."

But again as per my first comment in this reply, that seems to suggest its dependant on the operator returning your card to you.

Quite a lot of separation between all the parties (Transport Operators/Leap) in here, if there's little room for delegation between them, or even a clear concise ownership of such an issue. Leap say its for a transport operator, but sure what will a transport operator say? It's not a Transport Operators T&Cs.

lucernarian

The credit on the card is leap's jurisdiction as well as the transport operator, right?. The biggest issue I have is whether someone might have their credit confiscated for e.g. travelling further than their student single ticket permits. Though the leap rules have primacy in this matter, and they say "you may not be entitled to receive a refund of any Travel Credit" whereas Student Travelcard said "you will not..." in their T&Cs.

Leap do not need to liase with the operator to send out a cheque of the balance?

Dravokivich

Well, that'll depend on the operator telling leap they've condfiscated the card. But i suppose its too efficient a suggestion for it to be the case. :pac:

Losty Dublin

Dravokivich wrote: »

Well, that'll depend on the operator telling leap they've condfiscated the card. But i suppose its too efficient a suggestion for it to be the case. :pac:

Or OP ringing Leap at 1850 824 824 and asking them what they'd do

AlekSmart

To_be_confirmed wrote: »

I mean, imagine if we didn't have a situation where a discount card company could arbitrarily take as much or as little money as it likes (to a limit of €150) on top of the fines as prescribed by the transport operators for misuse:rolleyes:

So,on balance..you're not a great fan of ....
http://www.studenttravelcard.ie/Utilities/TermsAndConditions.aspx.

However,your scenario does reinforce the reality of Leapcard being a shadow of what it should have,and could have,been.

Instead it sits out there attempting to portray itself as an integrated ticketing system,yet with no real Public Profile as being in any way important to how we pay for using Public Transport.

It will be interesting to see what answers you get and whether any of the answers actually contradict each other ...:)

lucernarian

Losty Dublin wrote: »

Or OP ringing Leap at 1850 824 824 and asking them what they'd do

I think an email will be good enough:).

I don't have a much of an option in calling, given that I'm not a Leap customer.