Racism In Wrestling?

rovert

Darren Young is out until October due a knee injury.

I really hope Titus doesn't get lost in the shuffle great charisma and speaking ability. I would turn him babyface and get him on commentary again.

Machismo Fan

rovert wrote: »

I really hope Titus doesn't get lost in the shuffle great charisma and speaking ability. I would turn him babyface and get him on commentary again.

It's a crime that they've done nothing with him for the last few months.

Lord TSC

I really do believe that if Titus wasn't black, he'd have been getting a far bigger push....

Xenji

rovert wrote: »

Darren Young is out until October due a knee injury.

I really hope Titus doesn't get lost in the shuffle great charisma and speaking ability. I would turn him babyface and get him on commentary again.

Where did you read October, any news site I check have all said April.

DM_7

Teamshadowclan wrote: »

I really do believe that if Titus wasn't black, he'd have been getting a far bigger push....

erm why?

Mark Henry
Lashley was in one of the highest profile matches WWE ever had.

I think Rock is black...........

Maybe i'm missing something obvious here

GTR63

DM-ICE wrote: »

erm why?

Mark Henry
Lashley was in one of the highest profile matches WWE ever had.

I think Rock is black...........

Maybe i'm missing something obvious here

Is he?

DM_7

GTR63 wrote: »

Is he?

Kinda, his da is. Thats why i said I think!;)

glenjamin

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mz6VbUAY70w

Lord TSC

DM-ICE wrote: »

erm why?

Mark Henry
Lashley was in one of the highest profile matches WWE ever had.

I think Rock is black...........

Maybe i'm missing something obvious here

(This might warrent a topic of it's own actually; a discussion of race in WWE?)

The Rock is the only Black guy who hold the WWE title since it's inception in 1963 (from my reading of Wiki champions) and even then, he's only partially black. Booker T and Mark Henry are the only black men to be World Heavyweight champion since it's inception in 2002. However neither of them were ever the face of the company, and both played second fiddle to the other champion. So in a combined 60 years for those titles, we've seen three black World champions, only one of whom was actually allowed to be the top guy.

It just strikes me that black guys tend not to be able to shatter that glass ceiling, often either getting stuck in midcard hell (Kofi, R-Truth) or get racially motivated gimmicks (Cryme Tyme, Sexual Chocolate, Nation of Domination). Booker had made a name for himself in WCW and had the benefit of bringing the credibility over with him, and Lashley was a monster, physically. On top of that, a quick google of "Bobby Lashley Racism" actually links stories that the WWE paid Lashley off when he left so he wouldn't discuss some of the racist abuse he got backstage from the likes of Michael Hayes.

Xenji

Teamshadowclan wrote: »

(This might warrent a topic of it's own actually; a discussion of race in WWE?)

The Rock is the only Black guy who hold the WWE title since it's inception in 1963 (from my reading of Wiki champions) and even then, he's only partially black. Booker T and Mark Henry are the only black men to be World Heavyweight champion since it's inception in 2002. However neither of them were ever the face of the company, and both played second fiddle to the other champion. So in a combined 60 years for those titles, we've seen three black World champions, only one of whom was actually allowed to be the top guy.

It just strikes me that black guys tend not to be able to shatter that glass ceiling, often either getting stuck in midcard hell (Kofi, R-Truth) or get racially motivated gimmicks (Cryme Tyme, Sexual Chocolate, Nation of Domination). Booker had made a name for himself in WCW and had the benefit of bringing the credibility over with him, and Lashley was a monster, physically. On top of that, a quick google of "Bobby Lashley Racism" actually links stories that the WWE paid Lashley off when he left so he wouldn't discuss some of the racist abuse he got backstage from the likes of Michael Hayes.

Ron Simmons and Booker T where the only black people to win the WCW Championship for their run as a promotion.

Actually that means that you have had only 3 black world champions ever.

Machismo Fan

Xenji wrote: »

Actually that means that you have had only 3 black world champions ever.

Ron Killings in TNA aswell.

Xenji

Machismo Fan wrote: »

Ron Killings in TNA aswell.

We gonna count indys, if so there must be a few more.

Handsome Bob

Truth might have been worth a short term wwe title run when he turned heel, but I vaguely remember someone saying the ratings for raw were poor at the time of his feud with cena.

Machismo Fan

Xenji wrote: »

We gonna count indys, if so there must be a few more.

Even in those days of TNA it was still the NWA title. And there's also Mark Henry of course.

orestes

Handsome Bob wrote: »

Truth might have been worth a short term wwe title run when he turned heel, but I vaguely remember someone saying the ratings for raw were poor at the time of his feud with cena.

I think I read on here recently that Capitol Punishment bombed to hell too with Truth and Cena in the main event so WWE lost faith in him being able to draw, might be wrong on that though.

Xenji

Machismo Fan wrote: »

Even in those days of TNA it was still the NWA title. And there's also Mark Henry of course.

In fairness that belt has had no real meaning since 1993

gnfnrhead

Xenji wrote: »

In fairness that belt has had no real meaning since 1993

You can make that arguement for any title, especially the company that uses two "world" titles.

Xenji

gnfnrhead wrote: »

You can make that arguement for any title, especially the company that uses two "world" titles.

True, but at least they get shown on world wide tv.

GTR63

Xenji wrote: »

True, but at least they get shown on world wide tv.

sigh

starviewadams

I'd say Lashley would've been a nailed on WWE Champion if he hadn't left when they sacked his girlfriend off.He was unhappy with his Mania payoff also IIRC.He was given a mega push too.

Has there been that many black wrestlers who actually had World Champion potential in the 90's/00's?I'm struggling to think of any to be fair.(Benjamin,MVP possibly)

Maybe it's a case of black American athlete's focussing on the potential big money careers in the NBA/NFL instead.

Machismo Fan

starviewadams wrote: »

Has there been that many black wrestlers who actually had World Champion potential in the 90's/00's?I'm struggling to think of any to be fair.

Pope in TNA in 2010.

Xenji

Ahmed Johnson, he was the first black person to win a singles championship in the company.

Also I have vague memories of the Papa Shango supposedly coming back for a second run around 1996 as a darker version of the character and getting a big push, but something scuppered it and Charles ended up in the Nation of Domination.

DM_7

It is an interesting topic, possibly worthy of its own thread.

I am not convinced its a race issue and more ability. Was Goldberg Black? He got treated the same as Booker in WWE. Despite Booker leaving and going to TNA in the end they still brought him back to prominant roles on camera so i'm not convinced his race was a problem.

Mark Henry was signed to a long term deal before even knowing how to do a Body Slam.

Not saying racism doesn't exist just I don't think many of the names mentioned were really held back because they are Black. Titus is probably held back because he was awful in the ring, clumsy and a bit dangerous for a long time. His age is also a factor as they are not going to push people that won't be around a long time.

GTR63

Machismo Fan wrote: »

Pope in TNA in 2010.

Your joking.....The Pope? Oh my god
Couldn't resist using that.

gimmick

Split from the other thread.

Lord TSC

DM-ICE wrote: »

Not saying racism doesn't exist just I don't think many of the names mentioned were really held back because they are Black. Titus is probably held back because he was awful in the ring, clumsy and a bit dangerous for a long time. His age is also a factor as they are not going to push people that won't be around a long time.

There's probably that aspect to it too. But one could also argue that ability and a lack thereof tends not to be a factor when it comes to pushing a lot of new guys. Up until recently, if you were jacked, you got called up as soon as possible. Mason Ryan, Ryback, hell we can add Lashley and Ezekial Jackson to that list. The only real difference imo between Ryback and Jackson is in terms of how they were pushed, not ability.

That's not to say WWE pushed Ryback cause he's white and didn't push Jackson cause he was black. Just that ability isn't (wasn't) actually the main driving force when it comes/came to choosing who debuted and when.

As far as Goldberg, I think that's a different issue tbh. I think that comes down to the fact that Vince hates when people make a name for themselves outside of WWE. There's very few guys who get to come into WWE, keep their gimmick and actually continue to make a big name for themselves. Booker didn't actually win the title until he got a complete gimmick overhaul courtesy of WWE. It took Eddie dying for Rey to get to the top of the mountain, and he's never really been back.

Xenji

I do not think you have racism in wrestling, I think its just due to the simple fact that you do not have that many black wrestlers anymore, so the talent pool is gonna be smaller compared to others, the smaller the talent pool, the less chance you will have great wrestlers.

ciano316

Isn't there a strong rumor that Michael Hayse is said to be a racist and was one of the reasons for a lot of black talent being held back.

Hazys

Athletes in the NFL are very similar in size and athleticism but in the NFL 70% of players are black....what's the % wrestling? I presume its a lot less. Are black people less entertaining when it comes to developing personalities and characters for the WWE? I highly doubt that, considering the amount of black people in the entertainment industry.

Success in wrestling is tied to scripting by marketing people so there could conscious/unconscious reasons why there are less black wrestlers than their should be.

Although i don't think its not that simple % matching. In the US, wrestling is still a highly popular among the Southern/white demographic, which tends not to be black. So for one, you are going have less black people interested in taking up wrestling so there will be less black wrestlers and less chance of a black champion. Also when it comes to scripting stories, if your demographic is majority white, you are going to make the heroes white, it makes sense that a white champion would be more marketable to the wrestling audience than a black one. Is that racist? i don't think so, its just unfortunate. I'm not saying there is no racism in wrestling but there are a lot of other reasons why too.

In a way, maybe why the Rock is so successful is that he's not that black and to most people he's just tanned, so he is less intimidating to white america whether the fear is conscious or unconscious, its sad that this is probably true.

bobby_says_hi

Michael Hayes was suspended back in 2008 for using the n-word to someone backstage. Racism may be there but it looks like it gets dealt with

When it comes to racism, people tend to think of black and white as the only races. The current champs are Mexican and mixed race. The Rock is of African and Polynesian descent so make of that what you will. I doubt WWE management don't necessarily not want to put the belt on a black wrestler rather than there just hasn't been one homegrown with enough talent and charisma for WWE to push him. The current NXT champ is black so perhaps Big E Langston will be the first? The previous tag champs and IC Champs were black, last Divas champ was Latina, the previous US Champ was Italian-American

But then again if there was a black champ then you'd have people whining that whoever it is would only be champion to be PC and then you'd have others debating about whether he counted or not depending on "how black" he actually is. It's damned if they do, damned if they don't really

Xenji

GTR63

bobby_says_hi wrote: »

Michael Hayes was suspended back in 2008 for using the n-word to someone backstage. Racism may be there but it looks like it gets dealt with

When it comes to racism, people tend to think of black and white as the only races. The current champs are Mexican and mixed race. The Rock is of African and Polynesian descent so make of that what you will. I doubt WWE management don't necessarily not want to put the belt on a black wrestler rather than there just hasn't been one homegrown with enough talent and charisma for WWE to push him. The current NXT champ is black so perhaps Big E Langston will be the first? The previous tag champs and IC Champs were black, last Divas champ was Latina, the previous US Champ was Italian-American

But then again if there was a black champ then you'd have people whining that whoever it is would only be champion to be PC and then you'd have others debating about whether he counted or not depending on "how black" he actually is. It's damned if they do, damned if they don't really

Erm Santino is canadian.

DEFTLEFTHAND

Court Bauer said on Konnan's podcast that Hayes called Henry the N word at a WM afterparty (he jokingly said 'I'm more of an N than you'). He got suspended over it. Is he really a racist or was he just a little drunk and made a bad attempt at humour? I think it's probably the latter.

You'll always have a few people with racist leanings in any big organisation of people. Most are smart enough to mask their prejudice. I don't think it's an issue anymore in modern day wrestling though.

GTR63

DEFTLEFTHAND wrote: »

Court Bauer said on Konnan's podcast that Hayes called Henry the N word at a WM afterparty (he jokingly said 'I'm more of an N than you'). He got suspended over it. Is he really a racist or was he just a little drunk and made a bad attempt at humour? I think it's probably the latter.

You'll always have a few people with racist leanings in any big organisation of people. Most are smart enough to mask their prejudice. I don't think it's an issue anymore in modern day wrestling though.

Didn't Hayes and Lashley have problems too?

DEFTLEFTHAND

GTR63 wrote: »

Didn't Hayes and Lashley have problems too?

Was that racially motivated though or just a clash of personalities?

Charisteas

Didn't John Cena used to be black?

Lord TSC

ciano316 wrote: »

Isn't there a strong rumor that Michael Hayse is said to be a racist and was one of the reasons for a lot of black talent being held back.

A quick google result...

From 2008...

SMACKDOWN head writer Michael Hayes has been suspended by the WWE, after allegedly using racist language.
According to Prowrestling.net's Jason Powell the former Freebird told black grappler Mark Henry: “I'm more of a n***** than you are."

Hayes also headbutted Henry, in what was described as a playful manner, before a frank exchange of words - which Mark then reported to the McMahons.

The incident is said to have taken place at a party during WrestleMania weekend at the end of March.

Hayes has not appeared at any WWE events since then.

The company released a statement saying: "Due to inappropriate behaviour, Michael Hayes was suspended for 60 days with no pay.

“In order to return to work, Michael Hayes will be required to undergo further evaluation."

It is believed that other wrestlers have complained about Hayes’ language in the past and it may have even played a part in Bobby Lashley’s decision to quit the company.

Powell says: “Michael Hayes is lucky to still have a job. He was suspended for 60 days for using a racial slur that several sources claim is a word he uses on a regular basis.

“For whatever reason, Hayes felt comfortable using this word in most settings. I've been told he's uses the word in public and while on the job routinely.

“Some co-workers don't believe there is any malice intended - others disagree in some specific cases - but I think they also realize that he needs to wake up and come to grips with the fact that it's 2008 and he's working in a corporate environment.

“It doesn't matter how comfortable Hayes feels with certain talent or colleagues. He holds a power position. There are wrestlers and colleagues who have been offended by his racial slurs, yet bit their tongues because of his stroke within the company.

“Others have been vocal about Hayes in the past, so it's troubling that it's taken the company this long to punish him.”

Link

Booker also talked about it...

-Booker laughed when he was asked about Michael Hayes and racism late in the conference call. He said Hayes thinks he's black. "I don't look at Michael as a racist myself," he said. "I've heard him use the N-word before... He's one of the people who can use the word around me because I know there's no malice behind it."

Link

bobby_says_hi wrote: »

When it comes to racism, people tend to think of black and white as the only races.

I appreciate that. But even when you look at the other races, they tend to be portrayed in negative stereotypes as well.

Del Rio has pretty much become Mr Latino, wrapping himself in Mexican colors. Sheamus, Barrett, Regal, Yoshi Tatsu, Hunico, the Usos, Jinder Mahal, Cryme Tyme,....all people who are identified by a character based on a racial characteristic at one point or another. Santino the same. Kofi had to put on a fake Jamaican accent for the first stage of his WWE career. Tensai had similiar problems when he returned from Japan (even wearing weird armor out to the ring). Wrestling, especially in WWE, has the majority of its characters defined

At least you've got Cesaro and Swagger inverting the racial trope characters by turning it back on the fans, but I'd argue in the latter case, it's not 100% working as some sections of the crowd may actually agree with what he's saying.

Regardless, my point here is that if you're not American, you're going to get a gimmick which takes the stereotype of your race, typically negative, and tries to case in on it. Which brings me too...

Hazys wrote: »

Success in wrestling is tied to scripting by marketing people so there could conscious/unconscious reasons why there are less black wrestlers than their should be.

This, sadly, is my biggest worry. Is the lack of black champions because WWE is afraid a black man as the face of the company won't do the business they need?

starviewadams

It'd be interesting to see how many black wrestlers actually train to be pro wrestlers,or what % of black wrestlers there are on the indie circuit.

WWE has: Zeke,JTG,Henry,Big E Langston,PTP,Booker T,Teddy Long,Brodus,Cameron,Naomi,Alicia Fox,Otunga,Kofi,R-Truth and The Rock.

TNA only has:Devon,King Mo and Kenny King listed on their site.

ROH:Homicide,Caprice Coleman,Cedric Alexander,Jay Lethal,Prince Nana,Benjamin and Tadarius Thomas on theirs.

gnfnrhead

starviewadams wrote: »

WWE has: Zeke,JTG,Henry,Big E Langston,PTP,Booker T,Teddy Long,Brodus,Cameron,Naomi,Alicia Fox,Otunga,Kofi,R-Truth and The Rock.

Counting the Rock is iffy, but that is taking the piss!

Xenji

gnfnrhead wrote: »

Counting the Rock is iffy, but that is taking the piss!

He was raised in a foster home, he probably does not even know his own ethnicity.

Liam O

Roman Reigns has definite world champ potential imo, but then again if people aren't counting the Rock as black I'd say he'd be the same.

Xenji

It looks like we are not counting Polynesian people, which in fairness are a different race.

DEFTLEFTHAND

gnfnrhead wrote: »

Counting the Rock is iffy, but that is taking the piss!

Clay is mixed race I'd imagine. His skin tone reminds of Rodney Mack's, do you remember he did a black power type angle with Teddy Long about 10 years ago? It used to make me laugh at the time because under the ring lights Mack had a lighter complexion than a sallow or tanned skinned Caucasian.

RobbingBandit

Racism in Wrestling.

Stereomaniac

I loved them. I wonder did Owen Hart look to be placed with them, or was it a cooling off move?

Xenji

Only video I could find

A Rogue Hobo

Teamshadowclan wrote: »

Regardless, my point here is that if you're not American, you're going to get a gimmick which takes the stereotype of your race, typically negative, and tries to case in on it. Which brings me too...



This, sadly, is my biggest worry. Is the lack of black champions because WWE is afraid a black man as the face of the company won't do the business they need?

As far as the stereotypes go, that is more of a problem when America itself with it's typically brash and arrogant attitude when to comes to their patriotism. WWE is just taking advantage of it because it works and earns them money. I don't think WWE are afraid they won't do business with a black champion, in fact WWE was and is always known as one of the more progressive companies in wrestling when it comes to the race issue. I just think it's a matter of happenstance for WWE, they just have not had a African American talent catch on that well with the crowd to be crowned World Champion since Bobby Lashley, who left before they could give him the title.