A quick question - junctions

Fukuyama

Hi guys,

I've recently started commuting every day by bike. The issue of yellow boxes at junctions when turning right is giving me some trouble.

Basically, I'm unsure about where I should be.

In heavy traffic it seems logical to remain at the top of the right hand turning filter lane until I see a gap appearing in oncoming traffic. Then I normally move into the box in anticipation of turning right in a few seconds. I've marked this as 'A' on the diagram.

I've seen other cyclists go out into the middle of the box and just wait (marked . This kind of seems like the cyclist is putting themselves in a hotspot for an unnecessary amount of time. If the lights go yellow, he/she may be unable to turn if oncoming traffic doesn't slow down. There's always a few cars that might speed through an amber light. He/she is then blocking the perpendicular traffic when they get the green.

Finally, some even go to the far side of the junction and rest by the island, if there is one. It's marked 'C'. on the diagram. They just wait there until there's a gap. Again, this seems silly to me as they're taking themselves out of traffic and creating their own little lane.

If anyone is familiar with the junction in the diagram (it's the junction on the Drimnagh Road/ Crumlin road at Star Bingo turning right onto Kildare road.

Any idea what's the correct way to take this turn as a cyclist?

D3PO

yellow boxes should not be entered into unless they can be cleared without stopping so what your doing is actualyl the closest to correct.

Mickb

From the rules of the road:

http://www.rotr.ie/rules-for-driving/junctions-roundabouts/yellow-box-junctions.html

"REMEMBER You must not enter the yellow box junction unless you can clear it without stopping.
Image shows 4 cars approaching a yellow box junction, two from either side.

An exception is when you want to turn right. In this case, you may enter the yellow box junction while waiting for a gap in traffic coming from the opposite direction. However, don't enter the box if to do so would block other traffic that has the right of way."

MiCk B. :-)

seamus

D3PO wrote: »

yellow boxes should not be entered into unless they can be cleared without stopping so what your doing is actualyl the closest to correct.

Except when turning right. In that instance you may enter the yellow box and stop.

Dean0088 wrote: »

I've seen other cyclists go out into the middle of the box and just wait (marked . This kind of seems like the cyclist is putting themselves in a hotspot for an unnecessary amount of time. If the lights go yellow, he/she may be unable to turn if oncoming traffic doesn't slow down. There's always a few cars that might speed through an amber light. He/she is then blocking the perpendicular traffic when they get the green.

This is the correct action to take. If the lights change, he is not "blocking" traffic, he has control of the junction and traffic coming from the road on the right must wait until he has cleared the junction.

Position A leaves the cyclist in an awkward position where they have passed the lights but they have not taken a position which gives them proper control of the junction. If the lights go red, they have further to go in order to clear the junction. They may have to wait there in that vulnerable position for another cycle of the lights in order to clear the junction.

Position C is typical of an inexperienced cyclist. It appears safer because once the light goes red, you have free access to go. But you are blocking oncoming traffic which wants to do a U-turn and placing yourself in a vulnerable position.

victorcarrera

I can't see your diagram but the rules are the same for cyclists as for motorists.
Don't enter the box unless your way straight ahead is clear except when you intend to turn right. Then wait for a gap in a position that does not obstruct oncoming traffic from turning right and allow them to pass on your right and go behind you.

Unfortunately most drivers either don't see, ignore or don't know these rules so that is why you probably have difficulty there.

http://www.rotr.ie/rules-for-driving/junctions-roundabouts/yellow-box-junctions.html

OK, I see it now.
I would stop half way between B and C to encourage oncoming, right turning traffic to go around me.
If I was traversing that junction regularly during busy hour I might decide to dismount at the traffic island and walk across the two pedestrian strips and continue my journey.

seamus

Having a quick look at that junction specifically, oncoming traffic is not permitted to do a U-turn, so position C is arguably the safest position, though it is still quite a submissive position.

cdaly_

Your position A looks sub-optimal to me. It leaves you with quite a bit of distance to cover before you get to turn across the traffic. If perchance you miss out, you're left out in the box with crossing traffic heading for you and no retreat because of the silver car sitting on your ass...

Position B looks better to me. You're not in a hotspot until the lights change and can cross promptly when you get the gap. In the event that crossing traffic looks like a danger you can easily move to position C.

Position C looks safer to the nervous cyclist as they can essentially clear the junction without having to negotiate on-coming traffic. Once that traffic has stopped, they can cross the rest of the way easily. That said, they end up leaving the traffic flow and having to re-join it thus losing their road position.

D3PO wrote: »

yellow boxes should not be entered into unless they can be cleared without stopping so what your doing is actualyl the closest to correct.

Except when turning right so position B is the correct one.

Fukuyama

Hmm! Seems there's bit of debate about this

I'm about to go to work so I'll give position B a try on the way to 'control the junction'.

If I don't come back check James's ER :eek:

seamus

Dean0088 wrote: »

Hmm! Seems there's bit of debate about this

I'm about to go to work so I'll give position B a try on the way to 'control the junction'.

If I don't come back check James's ER :eek:

Keep yourself in the centre of the turning line. Too far to the left or right and you nearly always get some gob****e who pulls up beside you rather than behind you. Position B as marked on your map is perfect.

ThisRegard

D3PO wrote: »

yellow boxes should not be entered into unless they can be cleared without stopping so what your doing is actualyl the closest to correct.

This misunderstanding when sitting behind a car running right is a massive pain at times. You can be left sitting at a busy junction through several light cycles because the car at the front of the queue will not move into the box and inevitably won't get through on a green light because there's no gap in oncoming traffic.

irishmotorist

Dean0088 wrote: »

I've seen other cyclists go out into the middle of the box and just wait (marked
Any idea what's the correct way to take this turn as a cyclist?

IMO, B(ish) is the correct place to be. From a driving point of view, I learned that the driver should in line with the white line in the middle of the road that you are driving onto. This makes sure that at least one car gets through each turn of the lights and you have the right angle and position to flow naturally onto your destination road.

On the bike, I might put myself slightly between B and C to take up the left hand side of the imaginary lane that curves around that turn. I think that being on C takes you out of traffic and removes your strong position on the road.

boege

Position B is correct, provided there is no other vehicle already at this location. You can not follow a vehicle into the box turning right unless the vehicle in front has cleared the box. (Doing so is a classic driving test fail event)

If you see yourself as a vehicle then you should take up position B thereby signaling to the vehicle behind that they should not be following you. It's one of those cases where an assertive move is safer, IMO. For me C would be inviting a driver alongside and potentially unsafe.

Wishbone Ash

Dean0088 wrote: »

He/she is then blocking the perpendicular traffic when they get the green.

Contrary to popular belief, a green light does not mean one can go. It is only an indication that one may proceed if the way is clear and it is safe to do so. If a cyclist is in the centre of the junction, traffic should not proceed until they move.

D3PO wrote: »

yellow boxes should not be entered into unless they can be cleared without stopping so what your doing is actualyl the closest to correct.

Dear God!

"shakes head slowly"

Mickb wrote: »

An exception is when you want to turn right.

seamus wrote: »

Except when turning right

victorcarrera wrote: »

except when you intend to turn right

Although not really applicable on a bike, it should be clarified that, when intending to turn right one may only enter the yellow box if the exit road is clear, i.e. if traffic is backed upon the road to the right, one must remain behind the yellow box. (Sometimes asked during driving tests).

ThisRegard wrote: »

This misunderstanding when sitting behind a car running right is a massive pain at times. You can be left sitting at a busy junction through several light cycles because the car at the front of the queue will not move into the box and inevitably won't get through on a green light because there's no gap in oncoming traffic.

+1

DaveyDave

The best thing to do is simply wait at A and when the light goes green then slowly proceed into the yellow box when the last car is about to pass in the opposite lane. Simple enough, but I will advise you to maintain your position in the middle of the lane. If you rest against the kerb motorists will squeeze past you and wait in the yellow box even when the light has just gone green and there is plenty of traffic in the opposite side.

I cycled that route to college for 2 years, the tricky part is getting from left to right just before the junction as traffic can be a pain in the arse.

Fukuyama

Hi Guys,

Thanks for all the responses !

I cycled to work yesterday and did pretty much position B with a little of C thrown in as suggested. Some guy in a jeep did follow me into the box and was on my arse but I held the center of the lane.

This morning when I arrived to the same junction traffic was heavy. By the time I had managed to cross over into the right hand turning lane there was around a dozen cars backed up.

Anyone familiar with the road will know that traffic can be tight there.

My question is, what do you guys do when you arrive at the back of a cue in the right hand turning lane? Should I proceed up to the top? If so, on the left or right hand side?

The left side seems like I'm exposing myself to a side swipe by traffic in the other lane. Going up the right hand side could end badly if, as I arrive at the side of the top few cars, they begin to move and turn.... :eek:

So, what is the proper procedure when arriving at the back of the cue, assuming there's already a car in the yellow box waiting to turn??

cdaly_

Depending on the junction, I'll go up one side or the other. For this particular junction, I'd tend to go up the right hand side in the buffer zone until I reach the island. This may be affected by the level of debris in the buffer zone.

In either case, I merge at the top either in front of the lead car (when the lights are red and I therefore can) or behind the lead car if the lights are green and there's a chance they'll move off before I get properly in front.