is this a sealed system

brando75

hi guys. My brother recently paid a guy to seal his system from open vented. Here is the way the pipework is left... pipe running from top of main tank to top of expansion tank. this is teed before it goes to expansion and runs as overflow to back of house. Same as before work was started. Half inch pipe from bottom of expansion tank has been fitted with a lever valve and then runs into hot press where it is teed to go into bottom of cylinder and into floor of hotpress. Pipe running from top of cylinder has been blanked before going into attic and is teed off into expansion vessel which is placed in hotpress. Is this a sealed system which he paid for?? i thought a sealed system has no use for expansion tank?? or does this all seem fine to you. thanks

aujopimur

It seems to be what's called semisealed , the lever is not a good idea, a non return valve should have been fitted.

brando75

aujopimur wrote: »

It seems to be what's called semisealed , the lever is not a good idea, a non return valve should have been fitted.

That's what i thought. So to seal this system now what would be involved?

spireland32

IF there's a non return on the pipe coming from the bottom of the small tank... then yes its sealed. May be nearer the cylinder. The tank is still being used to fill the system, but its not open to the atmosphere... if theres a non return and expansion vessel. The lever valve may just be an isolation valve for the heating supply.

Another way is to remove the tank and connect to the mains with a filling loop with a double check valve, also install expansion vessel. This would be sealed system aswell but also could be pressurised to 1-1.5bar with the use of the mains water.

Why not phone the guy and ask him to go over what was done. Instead of guessing.

brando75

spireland32 wrote: »

IF there's a non return on the pipe coming from the bottom of the small tank... then yes its sealed. May be nearer the cylinder. The tank is still being used to fill the system, but it not open to the atmosphere... if theres a non return and expansion vessel. The lever valve may just be an isolation valve for the heating supply.

Another way is to remove the tank and connect to the mains with a filling loop with a double check valve, also install expansion vessel. This would be sealed system aswell but also could be pressurised to 1-1.5bar with the use of the mains water.

Why not phone the guy and ask him to go over what was done. Instead of guessing.

The only valve is a wheel valve on this pipe which i am sure was already there. A guy did mine few weeks back..took out expansion tank and joined the two pipes with filler loop and clock for reading pressure. Isn't this the correct way to seal ?

aujopimur

It's not a good idea to fully seal an old system, as it may cause leaks.

shane0007

aujopimur wrote: »

It's not a good idea to fully seal an old system, as it may cause leaks.

So is it better to hide leaks that are drip fed from a tank with a non-return valve?
I'm sorry, but I very much disagree with that statement. I would never in a million years install a so-called "semi-sealed" system. If the system needs to be sealed & it is not good enough to be sealed, then it should be tested with air to 3 bar & then repaired as necessary & re-tested.

brando75

shane0007 wrote: »

So is it better to hide leaks that are drip fed from a tank with a non-return valve?
I'm sorry, but I very much disagree with that statement. I would never in a million years install a so-called "semi-sealed" system. If the system needs to be sealed & it is not good enough to be sealed, then it should be tested with air to 3 bar & then repaired as necessary & re-tested.

there is no non return valve. just a lever valve. what is your opinion shane?? this system is semi sealed or sealed??

shane0007

brando75 wrote: »

there is no non return valve. just a lever valve. what is your opinion shane?? this system is semi sealed or sealed??

I really do not know by your description. It sounds like it is not correct as you are not describing distinct features of a sealed system, i.e. expansion vessel sized according to the total system volumenof water, a pressure gauge, disconnectable filling LOOP, etc.

I would as Spireland32 says, contact the guy & ask him to go through exactly what he has done & if is not to your satisfaction, ask why not?

brando75

there is an expansion vessel installed in hot press.. but no pressure gauge, no filling loop. the only other installation was a lever valve placed on pipe from bottom of expansion to bottom of cylinder

shane0007

What is the pressure reading?

aujopimur

shane0007 wrote: »

So is it better to hide leaks that are drip fed from a tank with a non-return valve?
I'm sorry, but I very much disagree with that statement. I would never in a million years install a so-called "semi-sealed" system. If the system needs to be sealed & it is not good enough to be sealed, then it should be tested with air to 3 bar & then repaired as necessary & re-tested.

What I was refering to is the pressure difference between a a semi sealed system and a sealed/pressurised one causing leaks.
I said nothing about hiding leaks.
I know from expierience the problems caused pressurising old open systems.

spireland32

Google images of "half inch non return valve copper" or similar. And see if one is fitted on the heating fill supply pipe. If not its semi sealed as said above. Was the system pitching and thats why it was sealed?

Id be wary of pressurising on mains an old system with old rad valves... start leaking through the glands. And most older valves dont have gland nut to tighten. Just not worth the hassle.

A expansion tank with a non return and expansion is a sealed system but you wont get much more than 0.5bar in a typical house.

shane0007

spireland32 wrote: »

A expansion tank with a non return and expansion is a sealed system but you wont get much more than 0.5bar in a typical house.

And a measly 0.2 bar upstairs!

shane0007

aujopimur wrote: »

What I was refering to is the pressure difference between a a semi sealed system and a sealed/pressurised one causing leaks.
I said nothing about hiding leaks.
I know from expierience the problems caused pressurising old open systems.

But that is what they do. It is a handy get out clause to walk away from doing it right.
There is a lot of faith put into the integrity & longevity of a non-return valve.

brando75

shane0007 wrote: »

But that is what they do. It is a handy get out clause to walk away from doing it right.
There is a lot of faith put into the integrity & longevity of a non-return valve.

There is NO non return valve. Only a lever valve. There is NO pressure gauge. There is NO filling loop

shane0007

brando75 wrote: »

There is NO non return valve. Only a lever valve. There is NO pressure gauge. There is NO filling loop

Well then your system is not sealed as per regulation nor industry best practice.
It is actually easier to do it right in the first instance. Less errors & less call backs. It beggars belief but hey ho, we are where we are!

brando75

So my mistake. Seems there is a non return valve on the pipe leaving the bottom of the expansion. Does this mean the system is sealed??
When i got mine sealed the guy took out the expansion tank.. and connected the mains tank with a filling loop and pressure gauge to the pipe coming from the bottom of expansion tank. Seems a more professional job.
Is this method of using a non return valve a cheaper version and as such not as efficient or do both methods of sealing work just as good??

spireland32

Yes its sealed. Your thinking too much into it. Some guys including me dont like pressurised with mains on some systems. Shane does and i understand his thinking behind it but I just dont do it on every system. Thats the way he does it and I dont think hes wrong and am right... its different ways of doing a job.

brando75

spireland32 wrote: »

Yes its sealed. Your thinking too much into it. Some guys including me dont like pressurised with mains on some systems. Shane does and i understand his thinking behind it but I just dont do it on every system. Thats the way he does it and I dont think hes wrong and am right... its different ways of doing a job.

Just had another plumber come around and look at the job. He says in fact that its NOT a non return valve but a 3-10 joiner that's fitted. Also he says expansion vessel should be facing upwards and not on its side. Is this true?
I don't think i am thinking about it too much. Top money was paid for this job. And if its not properly sealed then questions should be asked

sullzz

When this plumber looked at it did he say it was sealed

brando75

sullzz wrote: »

When this plumber looked at it did he say it was sealed

He said its not sealed.

shane0007

brando75 wrote: »

He said its not sealed.

Every day is a learning day!
If somebody asks me to seal the system, I either after thoroughly inspecting the system say no I would not like to seal this system because..... or I seal the system. The customer should always be in the loop of what is going on.
If another plumber has confirmed that the system is not actually sealed at all, semi or otherwise, you have paid your hard earned money for said service. If it is not done, get him back to do as he was paid for or refund your money so you can get somebody capable of carrying out the works.
Simples....

spireland32

Semi sealed. Phone the original ask him to call by that you believe the job wasnt done as discussed. Keep calm and dont accuse him that its done wrong, worst thing you can do is lose the head. When he comes back then discuss it futher.

sullzz

+1 on what the lads say , if your not happy with what you paid for get him back , you asked him to seal your system and he didn't do that , when he arrives tell him you got a second opinion

brando75

is there a proper way to fit the expansion vessel. The original guy has it fitted on its side. The guy who came to have a look at it said it should be fitted with valve side facing upwards.. is this correct??

spireland32

The nipple should be accessible.... for testing pressure and recharging the diaphragm

brando75

sullzz wrote: »

+1 on what the lads say , if your not happy with what you paid for get him back , you asked him to seal your system and he didn't do that , when he arrives tell him you got a second opinion

My brother rang the original guy who said he fitted a lever valve and a non return valve on the pipe from bottom of expansion to hot press thus sealing the system. I am attaching photo of each. Is this brass fitting a non return valve?? He said it is. Another plumber told me definitely not. Any opinions? Please

brando75

brando75 wrote: »

My brother rang the original guy who said he fitted a lever valve and a non return valve on the pipe from bottom of expansion to hot press thus sealing the system. I am attaching photo of each. Is this brass fitting a non return valve?? He said it is. Another plumber told me definitely not. Any opinions? Please

Here is lever valve.

Billy Bunting

First picture is a 310 straight connector.

Second picture is a Lever Valve.