As a lot of independent churches are charities..

homer911

..but we have no charities forum, I thought I would highlight this here

http://www.ictr.ie/

The Dept of Justice is starting a consultative process on the implementation of the Charities Act 2009

This covers a number of disclosure issues, registration fees and formal audit. The audit proposal is the most contentious, with a proposed threshold of 100k income for the submission of audited accounts. It would be impossible for a qualified auditor to complete a charity/church audit for less than 5k - which would mean 5% of revenue going straight out the door + VAT, making a sizeable dent in a charity's disposable income.

If you have any interest in this matter, please make your views known by completing the on-screen form here - this affects all charities, not just churches:

http://www.justice.ie/en/JELR/CharitiesConsult?OpenForm

Tim Robbins

homer911 wrote: »

..but we have no charities forum, I thought I would highlight this here

http://www.ictr.ie/

The Dept of Justice is starting a consultative process on the implementation of the Charities Act 2009

This covers a number of disclosure issues, registration fees and formal audit. The audit proposal is the most contentious, with a proposed threshold of 100k income for the submission of audited accounts. It would be impossible for a qualified auditor to complete a charity/church audit for less than 5k - which would mean 5% of revenue going straight out the door + VAT, making a sizeable dent in a charity's disposable income.

If you have any interest in this matter, please make your views known by completing the on-screen form here - this affects all charities, not just churches:

http://www.justice.ie/en/JELR/CharitiesConsult?OpenForm

Churches should not be classified as a charity any more than Football team should be.

A non-profit organisation is a better classification.

Run_to_da_hills

In the United States Churches can claim tax exemption if they register as a charity under 501c.

Section 501c organizations are absolutely prohibited from supporting political candidates, and are subject to limits on lobbying. They risk loss of tax exempt status if violated.

Manach

Given that the genesis of the charity laws originate from the events of the dissolution of the Monastries and that current charities are stepping in as reliefs where the government has so badly mishandled the economy then I'd regard such a diversion of a charity's assets on non-core activities as a retrograde step.

homer911

This thread is about the implementation of the Charities Act 2009 - if you want to redefine what a charity is, or argue whether or not a church is a charity, you can take it to another thread.

If you want to see a list of bodies with Irish Charitable status:
http://www.revenue.ie/en/business/charities.html

The fact is that the current proposal will have an adverse affect on many small to medium sized charities - some of which will be churches, and now is the time to have your say on these topics of registration, reporting and auditing. Personally I think anything that gives greater public transparency to the workings of a charity (church or otherwise) is a good thing. There are many christian charities out there that are really struggling. There are many that say they are struggling, but are less than forthcoming with financial facts, or what they spend their money on, or how they are achieving their aims

Brian Shanahan

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

In the United States Churches can claim tax exemption if they register as a charity under 501c.

That is mainly because the Scientologists made the IRS's life a living hell for years in order to get their income tax exempt. Once they stopped investigating the Scientologists over their scams, they pretty much had to give free reign to all "churches"

Section 501c organizations are absolutely prohibited from supporting political candidates, and are subject to limits on lobbying. They risk loss of tax exempt status if violated.

But such a thing never happens. For example Pat Robertson is highly and visibly Republican, going so far as to giving that party the mailing list of all of the people suscribed to his Christian Broadcasting Network. This rule is honoured solely in the breach.

Tim Robbins

homer911 wrote: »

The fact is that the current proposal will have an adverse affect on many small to medium sized charities - some of which will be churches, and now is the time to have your say on these topics of registration, reporting and auditing. Personally I think anything that gives greater public transparency to the workings of a charity (church or otherwise) is a good thing. There are many christian charities out there that are really struggling. There are many that say they are struggling, but are less than forthcoming with financial facts, or what they spend their money on, or how they are achieving their aims

I think that might force some of the charities to considering amalgamating and benefitting from economies of scale.

Peregrinus

homer911 wrote: »

This covers a number of disclosure issues, registration fees and formal audit. The audit proposal is the most contentious, with a proposed threshold of 100k income for the submission of audited accounts. It would be impossible for a qualified auditor to complete a charity/church audit for less than 5k - which would mean 5% of revenue going straight out the door + VAT, making a sizeable dent in a charity's disposable income.

Two points:

First, 5k strikes me as a lot for an audit of an enterprise with a turnover of 100k, but maybe I'm just naive. Can anybody confirm that this is a realistic estimate?

Secondly, as a matter of good practice, would most churches and congregations not have their books audited anyway? As a congregant and tithepayer, I'd be pretty keen to be reassured that the church's books showed a true and fair view of its affairs.

homer911

Peregrinus wrote: »

Two points:

First, 5k strikes me as a lot for an audit of an enterprise with a turnover of 100k, but maybe I'm just naive. Can anybody confirm that this is a realistic estimate?

Secondly, as a matter of good practice, would most churches and congregations not have their books audited anyway? As a congregant and tithepayer, I'd be pretty keen to be reassured that the church's books showed a true and fair view of its affairs.

You would easily pay €1k a day for a qualified accountant to audit a set of accounts, prepare a formal layout and make the necessary filings - 5 days would not be a stretch for this work.

Larger charities would already have their accounts formally audited. Smaller charities would have an honorary treasurer, and possibly an honorary auditor, but to legally be an auditor, you must be qualified and registered. I have "audited" my own church's accounts, but I've made it clear that it's not an audit in the legal sense.

I've just checked my own church's accounts (2010 is all I have to hand) and back then total income was €103k for a church with just 70 members - and we gave away about €7k to other local and overseas charities