Pre school policies on excluding a child???

eel27

Just looking for some advice. My 4 year old has been in a large purpose built crèche and pre school for nearly 3 years now. He has quite a significant speech delay and some behavioural problems which in our opinion stem from the frustration of not being able to communicate. When he moved into the Montessori room in September for his pre school year he didn't handle it too well at all. He has a very short attention span and doesn't do well with having to sit down classroom style and do 'work'. He very much likes up march to the beat of his own drum and doesn't like being told what to do. Anyway we spoke to the manager who told us that it was the hour or so of Montessori that he was finding particularly stressful and if we paid extra (already paying €701 per month for 3 days and that includes ecce!) anyway we agreed so he had an assistant with him for an hour every day. As far as everyone was concerned this seemed to really help matters. Anyway she finished up at Christmas as she was leaving or something so the manager said we'd see how he got along on his own for a few weeks then at least wed have something to compare. Anyway about 2 weeks ago she asked to see us and in a very long winded way and smothering us with kindness about how gorgeous and loveable our little boy was when not lashing out we were basically told that it wasn't working out. He was taking up all of one of his teachers time etc etc etc. this wasn't a surprise but then we were told that they didn't think it was the best place for him and could he finish up tomorrow!!!!!!!! We were so bomb shelled and we had got some bad news the previous evening about him that we just sort of accepted it and left!!
He is with the early intervention team so I got on to him as to what the hell we could do and the pre school officer told us that we would most likely qualify for a pre school SNA, we just had up fill in a form and send it off. I went back to the pre school and said that great news looks like we can get him an sna for the three mornings Montessori times and would they be ok to take him back with help in the morning and cope with him on their own in the afternoon (we've always been told that during free play and especially outdoor times he is fine). I was told no they would only take him during hours of assistance which doesn't work for me work wise. I practically begged her saying that she knew how badly he reacted to change, moving him now would be so stressful to him, he loves it there, there's only a few months now til he starts school etc etc etc. still no!
So then I had to start looking around for alternatives (all of which charge a lot less) but I can't get anywhere. The one lead we did have then wanted a guarantee of the sna but of course we now can't apply for one until we have a definite placement!!!! So I'm in a vicious circle with no way out!!! Have had to take the last two weeks off work.
It just got me thinking that as far as I know if I had decided to take him out I had to give them notice so would the same vice versa not apply to me?? Should she have not have known wed be entitled to sna, told us to get one then see how he got on and if things were still the same in 30 days time then they'd have to exclude him. Just seems a bit unfair to kick us out with a days notice??
Incidentally on his second last day when I went to pick him up he was after falling (or was pushed I think) down the slide and broke his front tooth. The Other tooth is now gone black!! He was in agony for days and now the dentist says if they haven't tightened back up in 3 weeks hell have to get a general anaesthetic to get them both removed!!!!! Who's gonna pay for that???!!!!
Anyways sorry for the long rant but if anyone has any advice is appreciate it.

Cheers

lazygal

Preschool services are usually private and don't come under exclusion laws like state primaries and secondaries. They must provide a behaviour management policy.
If your child lost a tooth and damaged another in the service you should have been asked to sign an accident report form on the incident.
The school also sounds like it has tried to accommodate your child's special needs, by having an SNA in place. Unfortunately, sometimes children with special needs or challenging behavior can't be accommodated in a mainstream setting. Other children in the class also have to be considered and there may also be a lack of trained staff. I wasn't able to accommodate some children in my service due to limited resources for trained staff and possible difficulties for the other children.
Bottom line, if I wasn't happy with a service I'd look elsewhere.

eel27

Surely it is only common courtesy to give more than one days notice!? He's been there 3 years like, why so sudden when he's only a few months to go?! We're in a situation now with no child care and we both work. Just seems really unfair.

lazygal

I agree its not fair and quite rude. But preschools operate as independent entities, they aren't required by law or regulation to have a notice period or anything like it.

Lovephones

I work in a creche and i have to say OP I think the way you have been treated is discraseful , the school was well aware of the needs of your child and you were even paying out of your own pocket to have someone one on one with him , i would go back to the creche and speak to the owner again and tell them that they are discriminating against your child because of his special needs , also you should have got some sort of contract or parents handbook that wpuld include the policies and procedures of the creche , if you did then the exclusion policy should be in that,oh and i woukd definately ask for tge accident report for the accident wiith your sons tooth , they have to provide you with one and should have got you to sign it and gave you a copy on the day it happened

lazygal

Lovephones wrote: »

I work in a creche and i have to say OP I think the way you have been treated is discraseful , the school was well aware of the needs of your child and you were even paying out of your own pocket to have someone one on one with him , i would go back to the creche and speak to the owner again and tell them that they are discriminating against your child because of his special needs , also you should have got some sort of contract or parents handbook that wpuld include the policies and procedures of the creche , if you did then the exclusion policy should be in that

Discrimination doesn't come into it, if the school can't accommodate the child, there's nothing it can do. Not being able to teach a child with special needs because of resource or staff issues is not discrimination, the school might be acting unfairly and in an inconvenient manner but it hasn't broken any laws. You can't badger a preschool into taking a child.

Lovephones

lazygal wrote: »

Discrimination doesn't come into it, if the school can't accommodate the child, there's nothing it can do. Not being able to teach a child with special needs because of resource or staff issues is not discrimination, the school might be acting unfairly and in an inconvenient manner but it hasn't broken any laws. You can't badger a preschool into taking a child.

But the child was already in the playschool for 3 years , tye parents were asked to remove the child when the sna that the parents were paying for on top of the creche fees either left the position or was let go , how is that not discrimination ?

Insect Overlord

Lovephones wrote: »

But the child was already in the playschool for 3 years , tye parents were asked to remove the child when the sna that the parents were paying for on top of the creche fees either left the position or was let go , how is that not discrimination ?

That's how.

wolfpawnat

Lovephones wrote: »

But the child was already in the playschool for 3 years , tye parents were asked to remove the child when the sna that the parents were paying for on top of the creche fees either left the position or was let go , how is that not discrimination ?

Because without the SNA the child is taking resources from other children, it is horrible for the OP, and I think after so long there it is very stressful for her and don't envy her position, but the pre-school cannot put any child's needs above others. If there is no one there qualified or spare for the child, it cannot be expected to let other children go without. It is absolutely horrible, but if there is no way they can facilitate the child, then they can't.

lazygal

Lovephones wrote: »

But the child was already in the playschool for 3 years , tye parents were asked to remove the child when the sna that the parents were paying for on top of the creche fees either left the position or was let go , how is that not discrimination ?

Because there was no SNA in place and one teacher was required to deal with one child. That affects the legally required ratios of pupils to teachers and the education of all the other children. Just because a service has been dealing with a child for three years doesn't mean circumstances can't change, as in this case.
We are also only getting one side of the story.

Lovephones

Insect Overlord wrote: »

That's how.

WOW .... I work in a community creche and its completely different as we would have children with special needs in the room and if an extra staff member was needed they would just be rostered in at no expense to the parents

wolfpawnat

Lovephones wrote: »

WOW .... I work in a community creche and its completely different as we would have children with special needs in the room and if an extra staff member was needed they would just be rostered in at no expense to the parents

There is the difference. Community creches are government funded, private ones are not. It is cruel in one respect, but the cost of one child's fee would not cover the extra staff members pay in private.

Insect Overlord

Lovephones wrote: »

WOW .... I work in a community creche and its completely different as we would have children with special needs in the room and if an extra staff member was needed they would just be rostered in at no expense to the parents

Where does the money come from for that?

You still haven't explained how you came up with your definition of discrimination.

lazygal

Lovephones wrote: »

WOW .... I work in a community creche and its completely different as we would have children with special needs in the room and if an extra staff member was needed they would just be rostered in at no expense to the parents

Community creches, with respect, ironically don't encounter the resource constraints of private operations. If there's no money for a non ratio required staff member, its impossible to just 'roster one in'. Where would the money come from?

Lovephones

Insect Overlord wrote: »

Where does the money come from for that?

You still haven't explained how you came up with your definition of discrimination.

It comes from the fees , where i work is a non profit organisation and the fees are really reasonable , €175 per week from 8-6 including dinner and 3 snacks per day , and thats without any subvension
I feel the child is being discriminated against as he has been in the creche for 3 years and they are highly aware of the needs of the child and the parents have been paying for an sna out of their own pocket and were not told in advance that the sna was leaving or even asked to wait until they recruited a new sna to deal with the child

wolfpawnat

Lovephones wrote: »

It comes from the fees , where i work is a non profit organisation and the fees are really reasonable , €175 per week from 8-6 including dinner and 3 snacks per day , and thats without any subvension
I feel the child is being discriminated against as he has been in the creche for 3 years and they are highly aware of the needs of the child and the parents have been paying for an sna out of their own pocket and were not told in advance that the sna was leaving or even asked to wait until they recruited a new sna to deal with the child

It is wrong they were not given more notice, but that does not equate to discrimination.

lazygal

Lovephones wrote: »

It comes from the fees , where i work is a non profit organisation and the fees are really reasonable , €175 per week from 8-6 including dinner and 3 snacks per day , and thats without any subvension
I feel the child is being discriminated against as he has been in the creche for 3 years and they are highly aware of the needs of the child and the parents have been paying for an sna out of their own pocket and were not told in advance that the sna was leaving or even asked to wait until they recruited a new sna to deal with the child

If that's in Ireland, there is no way a service like that can break even offering those hours and meals for that rate. There's some sort of subvention in place for all community creches. Either the figures are wrong or the subvention isn't known by all staff.

Lovephones

lazygal wrote: »

Community creches, with respect, ironically don't encounter the resource constraints of private operations. If there's no money for a non ratio required staff member, its impossible to just 'roster one in'. Where would the money come from?

I beg to differ but they most certainly do suffer the same resource restraints , we regularly have to fundraise to get new equipptment for the rooms and have often asked for donations of old toys from parents ,
The parents were already paying for the sna so thats where the money for the extra staff member was coming from in the first place so if an exra staff member was needed to deal with the child the parent obviously would have paid for it as they already had been

lazygal

Lovephones wrote: »

I beg to differ but they most certainly do suffer the same resource restraints , we regularly have to fundraise to get new equipptment for the rooms and have often asked for donations of old toys from parents ,
The parents were already paying for the sna so thats where the money for the extra staff member was coming from in the first place so if an exra staff member was needed to deal with the child the parent obviously would have paid for it as they already had been

All community creches get a subvention. How can your service roster in an extra member of staff for one child at no cost?

Lovephones

lazygal wrote: »

If that's in Ireland, there is no way a service like that can break even offering those hours and meals for that rate. There's some sort of subvention in place for all community creches. Either the figures are wrong or the subvention isn't known by all staff.

No , there are different rates depending on what type of so ial welfare payment you are on , the rate i gave is the maximum amount with no subvension ,some children in the creche are doing the same hours and are on a css place only pay half that amount , obviously we receive funding from the government but we are paid very low wages too , its not the type of job you do just to earn money , you have to have an interest in it

Lovephones

lazygal wrote: »

All community creches get a subvention. How can your service roster in an extra member of staff for one child at no cost?

I suppose its because were community and cant discriminate against special needs that we can get an extra staff member in , we are actually doing it for a child one morning a week that requires one on one in the room and an extra staff member is being brought in on that morning to deal specifically with that child

lazygal

Lovephones wrote: »

No , there are different rates depending on what type of so ial welfare payment you are on , the rate i gave is the maximum amount with no subvension ,some children in the creche are doing the same hours and are on a css place only pay half that amount , obviously we receive funding from the government but we are paid very low wages too , its not the type of job you do just to earn money , you have to have an interest in it

You said there was no subvention. But you receive government funding, which is a subvention. You can't compare a community creche in terms of costs and resources to a private operation which isn't able to rely on government subventions.

lazygal

Lovephones wrote: »

I suppose its because were community and cant discriminate against special needs that we can get an extra staff member in , we are actually doing it for a child one morning a week that requires one on one in the room and an extra staff member is being brought in on that morning to deal specifically with that child

Your reference to discrimination is inappropriate here as its not a community service. There are massive differences in how private services operate compared to the one in which you work.

Lovephones

lazygal wrote: »

You said there was no subvention. But you receive government funding, which is a subvention. You can't compare a community creche in terms of costs and resources to a private operation which isn't able to rely on government subventions.

No i said the fee i gave didnt include subvention ,there is cheaper rates but that is dependant of social welfare , medical card etc ... If a child was to come in and that particular child wasnt entitiled to any subvension eg. Both parent are worling full time and no medical card then the maximum raye they would pay is €175 per week

Lovephones

lazygal wrote: »

Your reference to discrimination is inappropriate here as its not a community service. There are massive differences in how private services operate compared to the one in which you work.

I understand that too ,doent make it right though

lazygal

Lovephones wrote: »

No i said the fee i gave didnt include subvention ,there is cheaper rates but that is dependant of social welfare , medical card etc ... If a child was to come in and that particular child wasnt entitiled to any subvension eg. Both parent are worling full time and no medical card then the maximum raye they would pay is €175 per week

Staff costs are covered by the government too. That's a massive cost saving, so of course fee structures are different. I don't think that's at all relevant to the service to which the op referred. You don't work in a private operation. The service, funding and staffing is different to what you're working within.

lazygal

Lovephones wrote: »

I understand that too ,doent make it right though

Why refer to discrimination if its not a relevant factor though?

Queen-Mise

wolfpawnat wrote: »

It is wrong they were not given more notice, but that does not equate to discrimination.

I think it does actually. They have discriminated against the child on his intellectual and learning disability - if the child had no problem then he would be taken back ok (or he would never have been asked to leave in the first place).

Even with the offer of the SNA - they have still refused him re-entry.

OP - I would go to a solicitor and have a chat. And find out if there is a case, if so. Basically I would see could you force the creche to take your son back with a SNA until he starts school in the few months.

It would be very strained relationship with the pre-school for the 6 months until he goes to school - but they would be exceptionally professional.

What is Discrimination?

Discrimination occurs if a person is treated less than favourably than another person is, has been, or would be treated under any of the nine grounds listed below. In the case of equal status, it also applies to someone who is treated less favourably because of associating with someone in the protected categories. Victimisation of a person because of his/her involvement in proceedings under the equality legislation is also covered.

Discrimination is unlawful on nine different grounds

Discrimination is now prohibited in relation to employment and access to goods, services and property on nine distinct grounds:

Gender
Civil status
Family status
Sexual orientation
Religious belief
Age
Disability
Race colour, nationality, ethnic or national origins
Membership of the Traveller community

The above quote come from the Equality Tribunal. Basically your child has been treated less favourably because of his disability => discrimination.

Talk to a solicitor and go from there.

Lovephones

lazygal wrote: »

Staff costs are covered by the government too. That's a massive cost saving, so of course fee structures are different. I don't think that's at all relevant to the service to which the op referred. You don't work in a private operation. The service, funding and staffing is different to what you're working within.

I agree with you there but the child has been in tge service for 3 years and was already paying for the sna out of their own pocket so why did they exclude the child when the sna left and not just pay another staff member to be in the room with the child one on one ?

eel27

The thing is though we were pretty sure that we were going to be able to get an sna for him up to 12 o'clock every day. We were told that was the stressful time for him but he was fine in the afternoon when it's all free play and out door activities. There's no way he needs an sna at that time. It's just to help him concentrate and carry out his work in the mornings. It's not for toileting needs or anything like that.
The main issue here is the notice time we got (or didn't get!)

Lovephones

eel27 wrote: »

The thing is though we were pretty sure that we were going to be able to get an sna for him up to 12 o'clock every day. We were told that was the stressful time for him but he was fine in the afternoon when it's all free play and out door activities. There's no way he needs an sna at that time. It's just to help him concentrate and carry out his work in the mornings. It's not for toileting needs or anything like that.
The main issue here is the notice time we got (or didn't get!)

That should be coveted in the contract you signed with the creche , there should have been a minimum notice period in it which applies to boyh sides , also there should be an exclusion policy in there too , i would not leave ot at that though , i would go and speak to a solicitor