My Fish are dying

jace_da_face

I am a newbie aquarist just up and running. My setup consists of a heated 22 litre freshwater tank. Having spent 4 weeks doing a fishless cycle I stocked the tank with fish a week ago - 4 guppies + 1 zebra angel. After 4 days I lost a guppy and after 7 days (today) I lost my second guppy.

I went to great effort to cycle the tank to the point that I believe my water quality to be good, 0PPM ammonia, 0PPM nitrites, < 10 PPM nitrates. I have also treated for chlorine and PH values are in range. Temperature is 26.5 degrees. I have monitored the water closely for the entire week I have added the fish. When the first fish died I tested the water again and it looked fine. I still did a 25% water change and tested again. It all looks good. Yet I have lost a second fish.

Could my fish have been diseased all along? Is there anyway I can tell what is killing them?

BTW, when I say water tests for 0PPM ammonia, it is actually 0.25PPM. The liquid test kit never actually turns the water yellow to indicate 0PPM, it's still a very pale green. But yet, my tap water tests like that to begin with anyway, as does my reverse osmosis water coming straight from my drinking water tap (I do not use the RO water in the tank due to lack of minerals), so I believe this is just a limitation of the test. My ammonia and NO2 did certainly peak to high values during the cycling process and have come down successfully.

Any advice?

ShaShaBear

I'm definitely no expert, and don't take me for knowledgeable - but my guess would be the tank size. Zebra Angelfish are semi-aggressive (and while I know they usually do well with guppies) and might be that the lack of space has caused the big guy from picking on the little ones.
If that is the case, things might settle down now that there is a little more space, but obviously if the Angelfish dies, it might be chemical.

kylith

A 22L tank is much, much too small for any of those fish; freshwater angelfish get to about 6 inches long and are known to be aggressive. I really wouldn't use anything that small for anything other than shrimp, or maybe an African Dwarf Frog. A betta would be able to live in it, but wouldn't really be happy.

If I were you I'd see if I could return the fish and swap them for a frog or some shrimp.

jace_da_face

Indeed you could be right about the space. It is the one thing I am most concerned with and can do little about. I have never seen the angelfish interact with the other guys but maybe if they are competeing for space it could be stressing them out.

Denise90

Tank size is on the small side. Stick to 3/4 guppies or the angel on it's own.
What kind of filtration are you using?
How are the remaining fish acting and looking? breathing, swimming, eating etc.

jace_da_face

I am using what I believe is a cartridge filter, sits internally under the lid and contains the bio balls, ceramic rings, and activated carbon and sponge.

The other fish look healthy to me but I'm no fish psychologist. The certainly move around and are actively feeding.

Could overfeeding be a big enough issue to kill guppies? I certainly never intend to overfeed but I have never really timed how long it takes them to eat up all their food. It could be 3 minutes but to be honest it could just as well be 6 or seven minutes, 3 times a day.

kylith

Denise90 wrote: »

Tank size is on the small side. Stick to 3/4 guppies or the angel on it's own.
What kind of filtration are you using?
How are the remaining fish acting and looking? breathing, swimming, eating etc.

No way would I leave an angelfish tank. It may not be 6" now, but keeping it in there will stunt it and lead to an early death. I have a 100x30x35 (110L) tank, and it's too small for angelfish so, much as I'd love some, I can't have any.

OP, go to aqadvisor.com and enter the dimensions of your tank. There's an option to show only what species are suitable for your tank, but as I suspected it's pretty much 1 betta or some shrimp.

kylith

jace_da_face wrote: »

I am using what I believe is a cartridge filter, sits internally under the lid and contains the bio balls, ceramic rings, and activated carbon and sponge.

The other fish look healthy to me but I'm no fish psychologist. The certainly move around and are actively feeding.

Could overfeeding be a big enough issue to kill guppies? I certainly never intend to overfeed but I have never really timed how long it takes them to eat up all their food. It could be 3 minutes but to be honest it could just as well be 6 or seven minutes, 3 times a day.

I'm not an expert on filters, but I think you could remove the carbon.

You certainly seem to be overfeeding. I feed my guys a variation of brine shrimp, bloodworms, or generic flake food once a day, and only what they can eat in a couple of minutes. Overfeeding is definitely one of the biggest fish killers.

jace_da_face

Ok so there is definite consensus on tank size being too small, especially for the angel fish who will grow much bigger. That is duly noted. I wish the guy at the petshop told me this setup would have been unsuitable. He knew my tank size and what I was buying. He also seemed really knowledgeable and in to his fish.

However the angel fish has not grown that big yet and has not died. So what killed the guppies? Was it the tank size or overfeeding? Or perhaps it was an aggressive angelfish? Water chemistry is surely unlikely because I have taken care there to cycle it and monitor it.

I will make sure to feed less and will have to see about getting a bigger tank at some stage but the idea of only keeping a few shrimp and a frog, or an unhappy beta is quite depressing.

kylith

Remember that in most cases the staff in the fish shop are there to sell fish. They don't really care if the fish dies, in fact it's too their benefit because you'll go back and buy more fish. That's why they still sell fish bowls for goldfish, despite the fact that goldfish grow to over a foot long; they know the fish will die of deformed organs due to stunting, or simply from being in an unfiltered bowl with its own waste.

It's hard to say for definite what killed the fish, but it was probably a combination of stress from bullying while being in a tank too small to get away, and overfeeding.

Many people keep just shrimp tanks, and they can be really beautiful; I'm thinking of getting a few for my betta tank. I've kept frogs too and they're entertaining little buggers. They sing when they're happy, which is nice.

Here's an example of the kind of thing you can do with a shrimp tank. I really like this one; when the moss fills in and covers the back wall it'll be gorgeous.

meoklmrk91

Take the angel fish back, just because t didn't die is not enough reason to keep it. It could be attacking the guppies, being territorial due to the small size of the tank. Fish, even those suitable for community tanks, like their own space.

In a 22L tank even the smallest change can have a devastating effect to the ecosystem. You added 5 fish, which is far too much for your set up at once adding massive bio load which the system was not able to handle, possibly killing the guppies.

Really return the Angel, try and save the guppies, upgrade your tank later if you want. And join a decent freshwater forum, they will steer you in the right direction, don't listen to the pet shop people, they are sales people at the end of the day.

bogman

kylith wrote: »

but I think you could remove the carbon.

You certainly seem to be overfeeding.

Agree with both comments, also do a 20% weekly water change, introduce some plants and a few hiding places for the fish

Mr Whirly

kylith wrote: »

Remember that in most cases the staff in the fish shop are there to sell fish. They don't really care if the fish dies, in fact it's too their benefit because you'll go back and buy more fish. That's why they still sell fish bowls for goldfish, despite the fact that goldfish grow to over a foot long; they know the fish will die of deformed organs due to stunting, or simply from being in an unfiltered bowl with its own waste.

Did someone who works in a fish shop run off with your missus? They spend all day maintaining systems, advising customers and solving customers problems, they're not out to get you.

No good shops sell bowls anymore. If you're shopping somewhere with bowls go elsewhere.


Anyways back to the op's problem. The quality of guppies has been extremely poor for the last few years. They are very sensitive. If you added all the fish at once you may have caused a spike in the aquarium. It's a new system so you need to add the fish slowly. Small systems are extremely unstable so lots of water changes and small fish are your best bet.

jace_da_face

OK I have taken this advice on board. I firstly monitored the behaviour of the remaining fish and there it was, the angelfish was bullying the remaining two guppies for sure. It was the first time I noticed it. He was certainly much quieter and more shy for the first few days. I noticed one of the guppies had a nipped tail. I think the angel was going to systematically eliminate the guppies one by one until he had gained the territory or himself.

So I took the angelfish back to the pet shop and exchanged him for a guppy. I know, I know, the tank is too small. But they are a social bunch and that is very important for them too. I do plan to get a bigger tank, for now I just want a bit of harmony and community. I do think the tank looks much happier. The guppies are playful and socialising. The water quality is really good too. I'm barely registering any nitrates, and 0 NH3 and NO2. The filtration system seems to be working well and I have live plants and I think they are helping condition the water.

So here's fingers crossed and thanks to everyone for you input!