Price of a double espresso

Staff Infection

Ok so I was out and about town today and decided I wanted a double espresso. Grand, so I strolled into a café ordered, waited, was handed my coffee in a disposable cup and charged €4.60 for the luxury.
(Apparently a single espresso is €2.30 so they double the price for a double shot, felt like an auld one questioning the rationale for the price)

Now I was in Italy recently and a double espresso was always max €2.50-€3.00 and that was even in touristy places. Also on a side note the coffee today wasn't even fresh it was a Lavazza instant style coffee.

So my question is what is the best espresso you ever had and how much was it roughly?

monflat

Staff Infection wrote: »

Ok so I was out and about town today and decided I wanted a double espresso. Grand, so I strolled into a café ordered, waited, was handed my coffee in a disposable cup and charged €4.60 for the luxury.
(Apparently a single espresso is €2.30 so they double the price for a double shot, felt like an auld one questioning the rationale for the price)

Now I was in Italy recently and a double espresso was always max €2.50-€3.00 and that was even in touristy places. Also on a side note the coffee today wasn't even fresh it was a Lavazza instant style coffee.

So my question is what is the best espresso you ever had and how much was it roughly?

Just to comment that's a shocking price nearly a fiver
I drink latte and in someplaces that can be expensive too..

Staff Infection

Just to comment that's a shocking price nearly a fiver
I drink latte and in someplaces that can be expensive too..[/QUOTE]

I know, only the nice lady had made it I would have refused and walked out, needless to say I won't be back.
God knows how much they'd charge for a latte there actually.

adrian522

Where was this?

That's an insane price, most places add about 50c onto the price of a single. Hope it was good.

So my question is what is the best espresso you ever had and how much was it roughly?

Well my favorite espresso's have always been ones I've made at home, because I put so much time and effort into making sure everything is just right, so it probably cost over €1000 (€500 on espresso machine, €475 on a grinder and plenty more on coffee and various accessories) Actually come to think of it, that espresso you got was quite cheap!!

Seriously the best espresso's I've had have been in 3FE and Coffeeangel, probably cost around 2.50 or thereabouts.

Twoandahalfmen

All i drink is regular black coffe 1.95 in kylemore which is ok.
Coasts about 30c at home

Staff Infection

adrian522 wrote: »

Where was this?

That's an insane price, most places add about 50c onto the price of a single. Hope it was good.



Well my favorite espresso's have always been ones I've made at home, because I put so much time and effort into making sure everything is just right, so it probably cost over €1000 (€500 on espresso machine, €475 on a grinder and plenty more on coffee and various accessories) Actually come to think of it, that espresso you got was quite cheap!!

Seriously the best espresso's I've had have been in 3FE and Coffeeangel, probably cost around 2.50 or thereabouts.

A café in Navan of all places. Don't want to name them as they're not hear to defend themselves/their crazy prices.

Yeah I've been meaning to upgrade from my french press to a proper set up it's on the list of things to do before 2013 ends.

I've been meaning to try the coffee in 3FE and Coffeeangel after reading about them here, must try them when I'm in the big smoke this weekend. Any preference between the two?

adrian522

Coffee angel is a bit more central just off grafton street, while 3FE is up on Grand Canal Street.

They both do excellent coffee so couldn't really choose between them.

There are a few other places that are supposed to be good, (supplied and trained by 3FE), Cup, Brother Hubbards

Staff Infection

Wünderbar, cheers

Back on topic the best espresso I have had so far was in Sicily after dinner in a restaurant called Turrisi, probably enhanced by the atmosphere and to cap it off it was only about €2

Slaphead07

Staff Infection wrote: »

Yeah I've been meaning to upgrade from my french press to a proper set up it's on the list of things to do before 2013 ends.

get a decent grinder and good beans before you throw it out! It might be the best 'upgrade' you'll make.

meeeeh

Best espressos were probably in Italy. Standard is usually high, I remember one in Rome especially but in general Trieste would be great place to get good coffee (Illy country).

The one I remember the most as being very good was espreso in some cafe in Klagenfurth, mostly because I don't expect to get good coffee in Austria.

I'm not a big fan of double espressos. Single should be strong enough so you don't need double. I order ristretto anyway when I get the chance and they really are tinny. .

Oh I don't remember how much I paid but the price has often very little to do with the quality of the coffee. Paying four euros is absolutely ridiculous. The most I paid was about fourty euros for juice, beer and two espressos irc on Piazza San Marco and I still consider it daylight robbery.

donnacha

Paying €4 for a lavazza double espresso is a rip-off.

Mind you I'd happily pay €4 for a good double espresso.

meeeeh

donnacha wrote: »

Paying €4 for a lavazza double espresso is a rip-off.

Mind you I'd happily pay €4 for a good double espresso.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with lavazza coffee if it's done properly. I'm in Ireland more than seven years and I had a handful of decent espressos. Brand of coffee is the least of a problem.

Gran Hermano

Let's be honest, compared to a freshly roasted and freshly ground good single estate the likes of lavazza pale into insignificance. You can hardly call lavazza fresh.

meeeeh

Gran Hermano wrote: »

Let's be honest, compared to a freshly roasted and freshly ground good single estate the likes of lavazza pale into insignificance. You can hardly call lavazza fresh.

You might not get freshly roasted but you will get freshly ground Lavazza coffee. It is perfectly OK. Go to any cafe in Italy and I guarantee you you'll get perfectly decent coffee without fuss and some crazy price. I think Illy is better but 9 out of 10 times Lavazza in Italy will be better than some specialist stuff somewhere else.

adrian522

Where do Lavazza beans come from? Do they roast the **** out of them? I'll take the freshly roasted stuff over the stale stuff any day.

meeeeh

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lavazza#section_5
Maybe you should go to Italy and teach Italians how to do coffee properly.

Gran Hermano

meeeeh wrote: »

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lavazza#section_5
Maybe you should go to Italy and teach Italians how to do coffee properly.

I spend plenty of time in Italy with work. Italy have dropped the ball on quality coffee - look at how Italy do in the likes of the WBC over the last decade.

If you are comparing typical supermarket or main street coffee then Italy is holding its own whilst other countries catch up but when it comes to exceptional coffee I've had much better in Ireland, UK and the Nordics.

I once thought Italian or Cuban coffee was the best but some time educating your palette and trying some amazing freshly roasted single origins proves otherwise.

Italy needs to waken up to the complacency it exhibits, not everyone wants stale mass produced coffee.

MadsL

Ah, the old double the quantity double the price bolloxology. Happened to me a few times.

meeeeh

Gran Hermano wrote: »

I spend plenty of time in Italy with work. Italy have dropped the ball on quality coffee - look at how Italy do in the likes of the WBC over the last decade.

If you are comparing typical supermarket or main street coffee then Italy is holding its own whilst other countries catch up but when it comes to exceptional coffee I've had much better in Ireland, UK and the Nordics.
.

And I didn't. Btw WBC tells you very little about the general standard of coffee in the country. I like good coffee but I like it when I don't need to travel half the country and pay crazy money not to drink some watery crap. Coffee in Italy and France etc isn't just some purist pursuit for perfection, it's good quality daily staple. You are comparing coffee from best place in Dublin to a pokey cafe in I don't know, Monfalcone? It's like saying I had pasta in Michelin stared restaurant in London or Dublin and its much better than in restaurants in Italy.

Everybody prefers freshly roasted coffee but half the time in Ireland I'm just happy that I don't get espresso served in a cappuccino cup.

donnacha

meeeeh wrote: »

You might not get freshly roasted but you will get freshly ground Lavazza coffee.

:eek: Freshly ground stale coffee is still stale coffee?

Gran Hermano

donnacha wrote: »

:eek: Freshly ground stale coffee is still stale coffee?

But it is stale Italian coffee.

Mr Magnolia

I would agree that the across the board the standard of coffee is very slightly better in Italy but only marginally in my experience. The vast majority of coffee sold in both countries is poor, it's not that Italy are trumping us hands down, the vast majority of their outlets are serving over-roasted, over-extracted shots too. We have a few places now that really have pulled their socks up and are garnering support but a lot of people are still breezing past them slightly oblivious. There's been a great progression here in recent years with people favouring specialty roasters/outlets, it'll only grow.

meeeeh wrote: »

I'm not a big fan of double espressos. Single should be strong enough so you don't need double.

There shouldn't really be difference between a poured single espresso and a double other that volume. The difference is in the basket size and the volume of ground coffee dosed.

I order ristretto anyway when I get the chance and they really are tinny.

These cows are very small, those... are far away :pac:

I do enjoy a ristretto myself too!

Clinker

meeeeh wrote: »

Coffee in Italy and France etc isn't just some purist pursuit for perfection, it's good quality daily staple.

Are you serious?? Coffee in France is unspeakably bad, worse than the general run of places here.

Bohrio

adrian522 wrote: »

Where do Lavazza beans come from? Do they roast the **** out of them? I'll take the freshly roasted stuff over the stale stuff any day.

Some lavazza beans are a blend between robusta and arabica, well actually most of them. I think crema e gusto that has 70% robusta and 30% arabica?

its absolutely horrible especially once it goes stale.

People saying that they prefer "freshly" roasted lavazza than freshly roasted coffee need to taste how truly fresh coffee taste like. Especially when some of those beans have been seating in the grinder or the drawers for weeks.

Illy do a better job preserving their coffee but tbh its still pretty bad IMHO.

Once yo go freshyou will never want to taste that type of coffee!

Cheapest espresso I had... italy, 80cents. Best one I had, home... probably around 30cents

PPC

I've bought Illy once when I was desperate and couldn't get into town, was a terrible decision.
Made 1 shot, threw out the beans and did without until I could get some real coffee, really wasn't worth suffering to try and drink it.
Kept the can though and pop any beans I buy in it, so wasn't a total waste

Madam

Clinker wrote: »

Are you serious?? Coffee in France is unspeakably bad, worse than the general run of places here.

Not in my experience, I find the coffee in France(Paris in particular) exceptional, though I do have my own favourite places for my differing coffee needs(my morning coffee espresso, my latte, my cappucino even god forfend my Irish coffee:o). Here in Glasgow(if you ever visit) forget all the big chains and go to Beanscene and independent coffee cafe - they serve no nonsense good coffee and a espresso is usually around 2.00 a double which will you cost another 75p on top - seems fair enough to me after all they provide me with magazines and newspapers to read along with pretty good music in the evening:) No, I don't work for them - just a happy customer:)

cargen

in this thread you are comparing Lavazza and Illy (big distribution coffee) with speciality coffee; these are two different things and it doesn't make any sense to me.

I don't think there is any comparison between Ireland and Italy.
In Italy there are more than 170,000 bar and almost 1000 roasting companies.

however if you want to compare like for like, you should probably look at this site:

http://www.scae-italia.it/soci-membri.htm?pg=1

it is a link with some of the Scae members.

last comment, I have been few times in one of the speciatily coffee places indicated in this thread as the best in Dublin and my experience has been terrible.
generalizing is never a good idea

Doodee

cargen wrote: »

last comment, I have been few times in one of the speciatily coffee places indicated in this thread as the best in Dublin and my experience has been terrible.
generalizing is never a good idea

Did you tell the Barista?
I've had good and bad but was always asked how it was.
I think the standards and quality in Ireland are getting better and better. On a recent visit to roasted brown we were asked if we wouldn't mind waiting a bit longer as the Barista wasn't happy with the chemex he had produced.

Slaphead07

cargen wrote: »

in this thread you are comparing Lavazza and Illy (big distribution coffee) with speciality coffee; these are two different things and it doesn't make any sense to me.

Do you think fresh coffee is speciality coffee? Because that's the comparison being made... fresh Vs stale. A perfectly valid comparison that's makes sense.

Bohrio

Slaphead07 wrote: »

Do you think fresh coffee is speciality coffee? Because that's the comparison being made... fresh Vs stale. A perfectly valid comparison that's makes sense.

Not all lavazza is stale... same as not all specialty coffee is fresh.

what we or at least I think when are comparing is lavazza / illy vs specialty coffee, tbh is like comparing a frozen pizza with a pizza made in a good trattoria... or a tesco wine with a good Bordeaux or Rioja.

If you like lavazza better than the coffee served if a coffee shop is fine, same as I know some people that prefer a dr okber (or whatever) than a home made pizza...

You could argue that Tesco wine could be better than a 1995 Rioja, and this doesnt mean you were lying, I mean taste is a very particular thing.. but you have to agree that a person who knows wine will probably feel the opposite.

adrian522

Bohrio wrote: »

Not all lavazza is stale..

Not sure how you can say this. By the time it hits the Supermarket or wherever you buy it from, how long would it have been since it was roasted?

I think the bottom line is you just don't know as they don't put the roast date on the pack, but anything longer than 1 month or so would be too long in my opinion.

Bohrio

adrian522 wrote: »

Not sure how you can say this. By the time it hits the Supermarket or wherever you buy it from, how long would it have been since it was roasted?

I think the bottom line is you just don't know as they don't put the roast date on the pack, but anything longer than 1 month or so would be too long in my opinion.

Anything over 15 - 21 days imo!

I was trying to be positive but you are probably right in saying that it is hard to get "fresh" lavazza beans. Lavazza roast their own coffee, I think they have roasters in a few countries (dont think any of them are in Ireland), so probably places like Italy or UK are more likely to get "fresh" coffee than, for example, us. If you are a big coffee shop should get them fresh enough too, maybe only 1 - 3 weeks after roasting.

I suppose that's the reason why most decent coffee shops will go for local roasters rather than going with Illy or Lavazza... although local doesnt always mean better... which brings me to Java Republic (I believe they are Irish?).

In fact, where I work, we have a Costa. They use Java Republic "fresh" coffee and honestly, I have tried their coffee and gave them a fair chance but I just can't drink it. So what I do is that I bring my own grounded coffee from home, I grind it right before I leave and ask them (their barista) to make me a cup of coffee, and believe it or not, despite the fact that I grounded the coffee a couple of hours ago and it has already started to lose flavor, is still much much better (or at least to me) than the one they sell. And if you can ask them to pour it in a proper coffee mug well... the coffee sometimes is actually decent

So, in my case, it is not the machine not the barista but the coffee. I mean, I am sure that the machine could do with some proper tuning as well as the barista but it seems that 70% of the final taste is in the bean!

PS: I think I talk too much...

Johnny_Fontane

I was once told by a well known barista that you lose lots of flavour 30 seconds after you grind....so dont mess around.

a couple of hours will certainly effect the flavour profile.

Get yourself a hario skerton....use it every day.
http://coffeeangel.com/product/hario-skerton-hand-grinder/

meeeeh

Bohrio wrote: »

Anything over 15 - 21 days imo!

I was trying to be positive but you are probably right in saying that it is hard to get "fresh" lavazza beans. Lavazza roast their own coffee, I think they have roasters in a few countries (dont think any of them are in Ireland), so probably places like Italy or UK are more likely to get "fresh" coffee than, for example, us. If you are a big coffee shop should get them fresh enough too, maybe only 1 - 3 weeks after roasting.

I suppose that's the reason why most decent coffee shops will go for local roasters rather than going with Illy or Lavazza... although local doesnt always mean better... which brings me to Java Republic (I believe they are Irish?).

In fact, where I work, we have a Costa. They use Java Republic "fresh" coffee and honestly, I have tried their coffee and gave them a fair chance but I just can't drink it. So what I do is that I bring my own grounded coffee from home, I grind it right before I leave and ask them (their barista) to make me a cup of coffee, and believe it or not, despite the fact that I grounded the coffee a couple of hours ago and it has already started to lose flavor, is still much much better (or at least to me) than the one they sell. And if you can ask them to pour it in a proper coffee mug well... the coffee sometimes is actually decent

So, in my case, it is not the machine not the barista but the coffee. I mean, I am sure that the machine could do with some proper tuning as well as the barista but it seems that 70% of the final taste is in the bean!

PS: I think I talk too much...

In my opinion is rather 70% in how the coffee is being made. Plus any decent cafe will have fresh ground coffee. As for Costa I have yet to get well made espresso there. There is no proper cream on it which usually means that coffee is just not made properly.

Gran Hermano

You cant polish a turd. If the beans are stale it doesnt matter if you freshly grind the stale beans or use the best of equipment and technique - the beans are still stale.

meeeeh

Gran Hermano wrote: »

You cant polish a turd. If the beans are stale it doesnt matter if you freshly grind the stale beans or use the best of equipment and technique - the beans are still stale.

But the stale beans have a lot less impact than person making the coffee. Or god forbid the machine that is not cleaned properly. I actually grew up with a smell of roasting coffee. My granny used to always do it. Still I can live with beans that are not freshly roasted. What I can't tolerate is the dreadful watery coffe that is being served as espresso.

There seem to be a lot of brand snobery here and people thinking that expensive coffee equals good coffee. You need a bit of a skill for that.

Mr Magnolia

Lavazza, illy, java republic and costa, thats some mix! It really doesn't warrant this level of discussion. If people feel it does they really need to try some of the specialty roasters that are frequently mentioned in the forum. If you have already and can't discern the difference then that's a problem that can't be resolved here unfortunately.

Also, it's not about snobbery, it's about knowing what you're talking about.

Bohrio

Johnny_Fontane wrote: »

I was once told by a well known barista that you lose lots of flavour 30 seconds after you grind....so dont mess around.

a couple of hours will certainly effect the flavour profile.

Get yourself a hario skerton....use it every day.
http://coffeeangel.com/product/hario-skerton-hand-grinder/

I have a hand grinder but I still rather grind it at home. Yes, in 2 hours the coffee will not taste as good as when it is just grounded but is still better than stale coffee, much better!

I have heard many stories about how quickly coffee goes stale etc.

Most common one is the 2 rule, 2 years for green beans, 2 weeks for roasted beans and 2 minutes for ground coffee. I have also heard about the 14 rule, 14 months for green beans, 14 days for roasted beans and 14 seconds for ground coffee.

I would say this is not an exact science but it does give you an idea.

meeeeh wrote:

In my opinion is rather 70% in how the coffee is being made. Plus any decent cafe will have fresh ground coffee. As for Costa I have yet to get well made espresso there. There is no proper cream on it which usually means that coffee is just not made properly.

As regarding Costa (or Imsomnia for what matters) baristas you are right... most of them are not good, I mean, I have seen some "baristas" pouring coffee at 1.4 bars of pressure? frothing milk that has already been froth, pouring coffee for too long etc. But if you use your charm you can "train" them to make you coffee to meet your needs.

What I did is I had a few cups of coffee, and watched them making coffee, then spotted which one was making the more consistent coffee, disgusting but consistent coffee, and ask this person to make coffee using my beans. The difference was well... spectacular...

Of course the coffee is still not 1/10th as good as the one I make at home but much better than what I would get using their "fresh" beans.

Like you said, all you really need to check is if the barista cleans the equipment, tamps the coffee correctly and that's about it, if the machine is set up correctly it will do the rest.

Like mr magnolila said, you can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear.

So many times I had ran out of coffee and in my desperation decided to buy illy or lavazza, even java republic :eek:, a decision that I deeply regret! Coffee was disgusting and expensive there was nothing wrong with the coffee machine nor the barista (I hope), the problem was the coffee! And no matter how hard I tried I couldnt make it work...

Bohrio

Mr Magnolia wrote: »

Lavazza, illy, java republic and costa, thats some mix! It really doesn't warrant this level of discussion. If people feel it does they really need to try some of the specialty roasters that are frequently mentioned in the forum. If you have already and can't discern the difference then that's a problem that can't be resolved here unfortunately.

Also, it's not about snobbery, it's about knowing what you're talking about.

Just to make it clear, the coffee we buy (or at least I buy) it is not expensive at all. In fact, it is cheaper than Lavazza and definitively Illy!

250 Grams of

Lavazza Crema e gusto sells for around 3.50-4 euro I think. That's for a coffee that's 70% robusta!!!!!
Lavazza Gold sells for around 5 euro.
Illy sells for around 7-9 euro.

The coffee I am drinking at the moment (green beans)

Brazil Pantano, costs 3.7 euro for 250 grams.
Kenya Kagumoini 5.5 euro per 250 grams.

And when I but it from Sweetmarias (I normally place big orders, like 10-15 kg) prices go for around 2-3 euro per 250 grams!

So we are not talking about really exclusive coffee like Kopi Luwak which goes for around 50 euro per 16 grams and not even Kona or Blue Mountain... just normal fresh coffee!