Plumbing advice and prices for bathroom

powerstation

Hi,

I am doing up my bathroom, replacing the existing whb & wc with a vanity unit with integrated whb, and a back to wall wc with hidden cistern.

The hidden cistern work involves creating a frame to hold the cistern with a plasterboard wall placed in front.

Also, the floor radiator is to be moved across the room (sized 1.60m x 1.90m) to a towel warming rail.

I will be supplying all units & any necessary parts, and each plumber has said they have the required pipes, odds & ends.

I've invited quotes from three vendors, two of which were recommended by friends.

Quote 1. 650. Chap is registered & insured. Did not want to give a guarantee.
Quote 2. 300 + 70 with fittings. 2 year guarantee of the work.
Quote 3. 450 + 50 with fittings. 1 year guarantee of the work.

How do these prices look to you?

Also, one plumber wanted to drain the central heating entirely in order to do the radiator work, is that really necessary? The others only wanted to stop the tap on the boiler.

I would appreciate any advice on this work.

Thanks,
ps

Dtp79

powerstation wrote: »

Hi,

I am doing up my bathroom, replacing the existing whb & wc with a vanity unit with integrated whb, and a back to wall wc with hidden cistern.

The hidden cistern work involves creating a frame to hold the cistern with a plasterboard wall placed in front.

Also, the floor radiator is to be moved across the room (sized 1.60m x 1.90m) to a towel warming rail.

I will be supplying all units & any necessary parts, and each plumber has said they have the required pipes, odds & ends.

I've invited quotes from three vendors, two of which were recommended by friends.

Quote 1. 650. Chap is registered & insured. Did not want to give a guarantee.
Quote 2. 300 + 70 with fittings. 2 year guarantee of the work.
Quote 3. 450 + 50 with fittings. 1 year guarantee of the work.

How do these prices look to you?

Also, one plumber wanted to drain the central heating entirely in order to do the radiator work, is that really necessary? The others only wanted to stop the tap on the boiler.

I would appreciate any advice on this work.

Thanks,
ps

Don't know what u mean by a tap on the boiler. I would drain the heating to do it properly. Is the floor being cut for the radiator pipes or is it a timber floor?

Joey the lips

You dont need to drain the heating completly some plumbers drain the top of the heating and some gangsters use the safety valve to drain the water off at the boiler. All the quotes look fine. its just down to what your happy with.

As for guarantee. what guarantee do you need. If its working fine in a week it will be working fine in a year.

powerstation

Sorry, I should have been more clear - That's a tap on a pipe entering (or exiting?) the bottom of the hot water cylinder in the hot press.

The floor is not being cut, the pipes are going under the bathtub & will surface out the plasterboard wall at the other end of the tub.

Dtp79 wrote: »

Don't know what u mean by a tap on the boiler. I would drain the heating to do it properly. Is the floor being cut for the radiator pipes or is it a timber floor?

powerstation

Does the word "gangsters" imply that it's bad practice to use the safety valve? Is this the same as the tap at the bottom of the hot press cylinder?

Joey the lips wrote: »

You dont need to drain the heating completly some plumbers drain the top of the heating and some gangsters use the safety valve to drain the water off at the boiler. All the quotes look fine. its just down to what your happy with.

As for guarantee. what guarantee do you need. If its working fine in a week it will be working fine in a year.

mloc123

To swap an upstairs rad... turn of the cold feed from the f&e, close off all upstairs rads and drain the system down to just below the rad that is being removed... should be fine?

powerstation

Could you please provide some detail - what does "drain the system down to just below the rad that is being removed" mean? Is it just the existing bath rad being replaced, or the entire heating system?

Also, whats f&e?

Thanks.

mloc123 wrote: »

To swap an upstairs rad... turn of the cold feed from the f&e, close off all upstairs rads and drain the system down to just below the rad that is being removed... should be fine?

TPM

powerstation wrote: »

Hi,

I am doing up my bathroom, replacing the existing whb & wc with a vanity unit with integrated whb, and a back to wall wc with hidden cistern.

The hidden cistern work involves creating a frame to hold the cistern with a plasterboard wall placed in front.

Also, the floor radiator is to be moved across the room (sized 1.60m x 1.90m) to a towel warming rail.

I will be supplying all units & any necessary parts, and each plumber has said they have the required pipes, odds & ends.

I've invited quotes from three vendors, two of which were recommended by friends.

Quote 1. 650. Chap is registered & insured. Did not want to give a guarantee.
Quote 2. 300 + 70 with fittings. 2 year guarantee of the work.
Quote 3. 450 + 50 with fittings. 1 year guarantee of the work.

How do these prices look to you?

Also, one plumber wanted to drain the central heating entirely in order to do the radiator work, is that really necessary? The others only wanted to stop the tap on the boiler.

I would appreciate any advice on this work.

Thanks,
ps

Part of the reason Quote 1 may not want to give a guarantee is because his guarantee wont cover parts not supplied by him which can lead to problems (and a lot of finger pointing) in the event of a leak or failure.

You dont state that Quote 2&3 are insured, if they are not I wouldnt use them.

If the pipes are to be cut to move the rad the system will need to be drained of the pipes frozen.

the valve you refer to at the bottom of the hot cylinder will only tur off the hot water, not the water to the rads

Irish Steve

powerstation wrote: »

Hi,

I am doing up my bathroom, replacing the existing whb & wc with a vanity unit with integrated whb, and a back to wall wc with hidden cistern.

The hidden cistern work involves creating a frame to hold the cistern with a plasterboard wall placed in front.

OK, several systems involved here. Depending on the age of the property, the WC may get its supply from the incoming main, or from the roof storage tank, and the same is true for the cold water to the sink, it could come from either source, and may not be the same as the WC, only way to tell will be if you can see the pipes involved, and when you turn off the incoming supply, what stops working.

The hot to the WHB will be turned off by a gate valve somewhere, probably the one at the bottom of the cylinder, but be careful, that may be on the heating coil to act as a flow restrictor to stop all the hot water going round the tank when the heating and hot water are both operating.

Also, the floor radiator is to be moved across the room (sized 1.60m x 1.90m) to a towel warming rail.

Without seeing what control valves there are on the system, it's hard to know if it will have to be drained or not. Things like the service valves on the pump will stop the flow through that pipe, and there may be other valves that can stop other items having to be drained, but if the system has not been drained for a long time, there may be advantages in draining it.

You don't say if the existing system is copper or plastic pipe, and what you plan to use for the new work. That can influence the price, and even simple things like how the new taps and WC are connected can change the price, one person may use flexible tails, another will make and fit copper pipe that goes all the way, another will use Qualpex or similar plastic pipe which being more flexible can be persuaded to fit almost anything, a lot will depend on what will be visible when the work is finished. Flexible tails come with and without a service valve that makes changing a washer a job that takes minutes rather than having to shut down or drain the supply to the tap or device affected, the difference in price is about €4 for each tail. Without knowing what each installer is going to do, and going to use, it's hard to say which is the best or most appropriate price.

You've not mentioned what "fitting the units" involves. There's obviously plumbing, but you've not mentioned the other side of the coin, the wastes, are the new units and the WC connecting to the existing connections, or will work have to be done to connect the WHB and WC to the outflows?

Does "fitting the units" involve building work, or are you doing that, along with any tiling that may be required, as they are "additional works" that take time, and they may not be work that the plumbers are quoting for or expecting to do.

Sorry if this adds to the confusion, but there are a number of unknowns here that make giving an accurate opinion hard to do.

powerstation

Hi,

Thanks for your detailed response. There is a lot about plumbing that I don't know! I'll try & answer your questions the best I can:

The house was built around 1998.

> You don't say if the existing system is copper or plastic pipe,

It's copper, so the same would be needed when the rad is moved isn't it?

> are the new units and the WC connecting to the existing connections,

Yes, there are existing pipe connections. I now plan to get a back to wall wc with a cupboard style concealed cistern, which removes the need for a custom built frame & plasterboard.

The walls are currently only painted, and I will be tiling them, doing it myself - other posts on this forum have been very informative about how I should manage the rad moving, existing fitting removal, and the tiling.

Thanks.

Irish Steve wrote: »

OK, several systems involved here. Depending on the age of the property, the WC may get its supply from the incoming main, or from the roof storage tank, and the same is true for the cold water to the sink, it could come from either source, and may not be the same as the WC, only way to tell will be if you can see the pipes involved, and when you turn off the incoming supply, what stops working.

The hot to the WHB will be turned off by a gate valve somewhere, probably the one at the bottom of the cylinder, but be careful, that may be on the heating coil to act as a flow restrictor to stop all the hot water going round the tank when the heating and hot water are both operating.



Without seeing what control valves there are on the system, it's hard to know if it will have to be drained or not. Things like the service valves on the pump will stop the flow through that pipe, and there may be other valves that can stop other items having to be drained, but if the system has not been drained for a long time, there may be advantages in draining it.

You don't say if the existing system is copper or plastic pipe, and what you plan to use for the new work. That can influence the price, and even simple things like how the new taps and WC are connected can change the price, one person may use flexible tails, another will make and fit copper pipe that goes all the way, another will use Qualpex or similar plastic pipe which being more flexible can be persuaded to fit almost anything, a lot will depend on what will be visible when the work is finished. Flexible tails come with and without a service valve that makes changing a washer a job that takes minutes rather than having to shut down or drain the supply to the tap or device affected, the difference in price is about €4 for each tail. Without knowing what each installer is going to do, and going to use, it's hard to say which is the best or most appropriate price.

You've not mentioned what "fitting the units" involves. There's obviously plumbing, but you've not mentioned the other side of the coin, the wastes, are the new units and the WC connecting to the existing connections, or will work have to be done to connect the WHB and WC to the outflows?

Does "fitting the units" involve building work, or are you doing that, along with any tiling that may be required, as they are "additional works" that take time, and they may not be work that the plumbers are quoting for or expecting to do.

Sorry if this adds to the confusion, but there are a number of unknowns here that make giving an accurate opinion hard to do.

Irish Steve

Copper or plastic is not as such an issue, as long as you know what you are getting. Copper is a lot more rigid, so requires a higher skill level to make good connections to an existing pipe and tap, plastic pipe is pretty easy to persuade to flex almost anywhere, but may not look as neat, and flexible tails are the ultimate easy way to do it, but that's not to say it's wrong, far from it, especially for things like hidden cisterns.

Copper and plastic can be and are mixed these days, the difference is that plastic can't be heat joined using a solder joint in the way that copper can be joined, which makes ring seal or plastic join fittings more bulky than solder fittings.

Copper is a better conductor of heat, which can be a disadvantage, there are places that you don't want to heat, and plastic loses a lot less heat than copper where they are the same size, so copper has to be better insulated in places that don't need or want heat in them.


Soldered copper connections take longer to make up, and demand a higher standard of preparation and skill to make them up correctly.

Copper is more expensive than plastic, but copper fittings can be cheaper than a compression or ring seal fitting, and it's a lot simpler to take compression or ring seal fittings apart at a later stage, solder requires heat to assemble and take apart.

There's a big difference between the quotes you have, it might be worth asking a few specific questions to see if you can get to the bottom of why they are so different.

Without seeing the job, that's about as much as I can help with remotely, best of luck with getting it all done.

Cheers

powerstation

Irish Steve, this is very informative and will help me make a better decision, thank you.

Irish Steve wrote: »

Copper or plastic is not as such an issue, as long as you know what you are getting. Copper is a lot more rigid, so requires a higher skill level to make good connections to an existing pipe and tap, plastic pipe is pretty easy to persuade to flex almost anywhere, but may not look as neat, and flexible tails are the ultimate easy way to do it, but that's not to say it's wrong, far from it, especially for things like hidden cisterns.

Copper and plastic can be and are mixed these days, the difference is that plastic can't be heat joined using a solder joint in the way that copper can be joined, which makes ring seal or plastic join fittings more bulky than solder fittings.

Copper is a better conductor of heat, which can be a disadvantage, there are places that you don't want to heat, and plastic loses a lot less heat than copper where they are the same size, so copper has to be better insulated in places that don't need or want heat in them.


Soldered copper connections take longer to make up, and demand a higher standard of preparation and skill to make them up correctly.

Copper is more expensive than plastic, but copper fittings can be cheaper than a compression or ring seal fitting, and it's a lot simpler to take compression or ring seal fittings apart at a later stage, solder requires heat to assemble and take apart.

There's a big difference between the quotes you have, it might be worth asking a few specific questions to see if you can get to the bottom of why they are so different.

Without seeing the job, that's about as much as I can help with remotely, best of luck with getting it all done.

Cheers