Solid Fuel Burner in Garage vs. Stove in Fireplace

Dali Farmer

Hi. We are considering changing from our current oil central heating to an alternative, and are unsure how to proceed. We have a 3000 sq foot house with a pressurised heating system with 12 double radiators downstairs and 8 doubles with an additional towel rail upstairs. The house is zoned upstairs, downstairs, and hot water. All radiators have individual thermostats

We looked at placing a solid fuel/coal boiler in our garage. Specifically we looked at a coal burner from greenburn.ie (http://www.greenburn.ie/coal-boiler-faq.html). We spoke to a number of people who have these, and they all seemed v.happy. The advantages for us are that it is compatible with our closed system, and involve little construction work in the house. The disadvantages are the cost (circa €5,000), and concerns re sourcing sufficient pea coal (although the guy inserting the boiler says he can supply it)

Our other consideration is multi-fuel stove with a boiler. We would remove one of our open fires to insert this. We think we have sufficient turf/timer for the boiler. The advantages are the heat block is in the house and we have the fuel to burn in it. The disadvantages would be the disruption in the house, and the protrusion into the room (I suspect we would need a big stove for our house). Also I suspect by the time the stove is purchased, and necessary plumbing and construction work is done, I might regret not spending €5,000 putting the burner in the garage.

We will probably go with one of the above options but are pretty clueless when it comes to this stuff, so any advice would be appreciated

Robbie.G

Dali Farmer wrote: »

Hi. We are considering changing from our current oil central heating to an alternative, and are unsure how to proceed. We have a 3000 sq foot house with a pressurised heating system with 12 double radiators downstairs and 8 doubles with an additional towel rail upstairs. The house is zoned upstairs, downstairs, and hot water. All radiators have individual thermostats

We looked at placing a solid fuel/coal boiler in our garage. Specifically we looked at a coal burner from greenburn.ie (http://www.greenburn.ie/coal-boiler-faq.html). We spoke to a number of people who have these, and they all seemed v.happy. The advantages for us are that it is compatible with our closed system, and involve little construction work in the house. The disadvantages are the cost (circa €5,000), and concerns re sourcing sufficient pea coal (although the guy inserting the boiler says he can supply it)

Our other consideration is multi-fuel stove with a boiler. We would remove one of our open fires to insert this. We think we have sufficient turf/timer for the boiler. The advantages are the heat block is in the house and we have the fuel to burn in it. The disadvantages would be the disruption in the house, and the protrusion into the room (I suspect we would need a big stove for our house). Also I suspect by the time the stove is purchased, and necessary plumbing and construction work is done, I might regret not spending €5,000 putting the burner in the garage.

We will probably go with one of the above options but are pretty clueless when it comes to this stuff, so any advice would be appreciated

You will never get a multi stove large enough to heat your house and if you did you wouldn't be able to keep fuel in it.Remember solid fuel is the most expensive way to heat a house

Dali Farmer

Hi Robbie,
I know a couple of other people with stoves, and they seem to use them to heat one zone at a time. Do you not think a stove in the fireplace would be able heat 10 double radiators at a time?

Robbie.G

Dali Farmer wrote: »

Hi Robbie,
I know a couple of other people with stoves, and they seem to use them to heat one zone at a time. Do you not think a stove in the fireplace would be able heat 10 double radiators at a time?

Yes you will get a stove to heat zones one at at time.A decent boiler stove would be around €1600 up installation in the region of €2000 at least then you have the issue of it been a sealed system.Its possible to get stoves that will work on sealed systems or you fit a heat exchanger.Your best bet is to get a decent plumber in to have a look and get their oppinion personally I think it would be a non runner due to the cost the fitting and the pay back time would be years

paddy147

Dali Farmer wrote: »

Hi Robbie,
I know a couple of other people with stoves, and they seem to use them to heat one zone at a time. Do you not think a stove in the fireplace would be able heat 10 double radiators at a time?

Good excercize for you and the missus.....Shovel at the ready so.:pac:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=

Dali Farmer

Thanks for the replies. I thought I would update this in case we could help anyone else. We priced a stove yesterday, and the guy was very honest. Essentially for a decent stove with a boiler to heat 5 double rads (each double is counted as two when it comes to sizing stoves- who knew!), we are talking €2,500. As this can not be accomodated in a standard fireplace he said we should ideally replace it with a marvel one,approx €1,900. Then we would have to change from a closed pressurised system to an open vented system. Add construction, plumbing labour costs, and we are easily north of €6,000 for a system which would only heat a quarter of our rads at any one time.

It's looking increasingly like a mutifuel boiler in our garage for us

glic83

A friend of mine has a duel fuel boiler, firbird afaik which he can run on oil or wood might be an option for you, dont know if he got it from them directly but he swears by it although did cost a few bob.

Dali Farmer

glic83 wrote: »

A friend of mine has a duel fuel boiler, firbird afaik which he can run on oil or wood might be an option for you, dont know if he got it from them directly but he swears by it although did cost a few bob.

Hi Glic. I haven't come across a duel fuel oil/wood burner before, and it could be an option for us. I googled firebird afaik boiler without any luck. If you could get me a model number, picture or contact for your friend I would be very greatfull

glic83

its one of the lads i work with ill be talking to him during the week and find out for you will be a couple of days but i will post back with the info

Dali Farmer

Thanks a million Glic, look forward to hearing about it

whizbang

Not sure you have thought this one out:

each double is counted as two when it comes to sizing stoves

so thats (12 + 8) x 2 = 40 rads , plus 1 towel rail = 41 radiators.:eek:

glic83

Update and its not good im afraid, complete mix up he has a firebird log gasification boiler and has oil as a back up, sorry about that total **** up on my behalf

Dali Farmer

glic83 wrote: »

Update and its not good im afraid, complete mix up he has a firebird log gasification boiler and has oil as a back up, sorry about that total **** up on my behalf

No problem Glic, thanks for asking

rugbyman

Dali
I have been thinking about wood for years now. I suggest you get a large pot of tea and read for hours on Boards about stoves, various helpful,knowledgeable people are on there, esp The stove man(or something) also an actualplumber (sorry i forget name) and lately a stove seller /fitter from County Down name sooty something.

a chap was on a while ago wanting to do a job, he would nottake no for an answer and googled the world,his search and the replies of the sooty man were great reading.

i think in short, though I have met people who heat rads, the advice of Sooty something , is insulate the house, buy a wood burnng stove ,the best you can,to heat the air in the house, and heat your water with electricity/gas

Regards Rugbyman

WhichWay

Robbie.G wrote: »

You will never get a multi stove large enough to heat your house and if you did you wouldn't be able to keep fuel in it.Remember solid fuel is the most expensive way to heat a house

Coal is the cheepest fuel at the moment. Check out the SEAI Publications.

http://www.seai.ie/Publications/Statistics_Publications/Fuel_Cost_Comparison/

I too would like to put a solid fuel boiler in the garage beside the oil boiler.

whizbang

I'm blown away by those numbers, and even more, 40kg bags of coal can be got at €12, which makes it 30% cheaper than SEAI pricing.
A large amount of wood source timber can be got FOC or very cheaply if you know where to go, so that will be cheaper also.

But the effort required to stock up and refill a stove, along with the investment return, puts it right out of the picture for me.

Dali Farmer

whizbang wrote: »

I'm blown away by those numbers, and even more, 40kg bags of coal can be got at €12, which makes it 30% cheaper than SEAI pricing.
A large amount of wood source timber can be got FOC or very cheaply if you know where to go, so that will be cheaper also.

But the effort required to stock up and refill a stove, along with the investment return, puts it right out of the picture for me.

Hi Whiz,
I have made the plunge and ordered a burner from greenburn.ie. the coal it burns (although it can burn anything) is called peas coal, which a coal merchant told me is a grade lower than slack. I have priced it, and a ton bag seems to be about €150. The two main suppliers of bulk peas coal seem to be eurofuels in Wexford, and Strata coal in Tyrone.The guys I have talked to who have these burners installed say this should do about a month of winter burning, but that I could expect 24hours of hot water and heat from this.

Regarding stocking up, the boiler comes with a hopper which apparently only needs to be filled on a weekly basis.

I will put up a post a couple of weeks after its in to let you know how it's going

whizbang

Best of luck Dali,

Keep us posted, this is looking like an interesting thread.

jackoc

Are you still happy with your stove? is it easy to look after light clean etc. Does it use much fuel?
Thanks in advance:D

Dali Farmer

Hi Jackoc,
Yeah got the burner in and we are really happy with it. House not currently zoned, & boiler is heating entire house and hot water. I have pasted in a list of installation dates, fuel usage and cleaning below. The boiler was installed on Wednesday April 03rd & lit at approx 13.00. Robert Cleary (Greenburn.ie) said the boiler would use approx 60kg fuel at initial start up. 160kgs initially loaded into the hopper by Robert on April 03rd.
80kg loaded by myself at 20.00 on Thursday April 04th.
120kg fuel into to hopper on Monday April 08th @ 09.20
80kg fuel into the burner on Thursday April 11th @ 19.00 & boiler cleaned
120kg fuel into the burner on Monday April 15th @ 14.00 & boiler cleaned
120kg fuel into the burner on Saturday April 20th @ 20.00 & boiler cleaned
120kg fuel into the burner on Thursday April 25th @ 20.00 & boiler cleaned

You can see that as the weather has been getting warmer the boiler has needed less fuel and used 120kgs over the past 5 days

The boiler has been constantly lit since it was installed, and we control the heat inside with individual stats on the rads. I don't want to oversell it to anyone, but would say that it really suits us. We have 2 babies in the house and the ease of use of the boiler really has been a dream as has the constant hot water. I should say that we have not purchased fuel for it as we got a 2 month supply with the boiler


Hope this helps
http://twitter.com/martinduignan/status/327778125205352448/photo/1

http://twitter.com/martinduignan/status/327777191020613633/photo/1

jackoc

Thanks for your prompt and detailed response
Looking at your figures 25 days (3rd to 28th approx) took 700 kgs of coal (pea coal /singles) =17.5/ 40 kg bags. @ €8 per 40kg approx €140.
This works out at €40/week for 24/7 heat. This has been a particularly cold spell, during that period I averaged €25/week 2(40 kg bags) on coal to a malfunctioning solid fuel stove in my kitchen , supplemented for periods with my oil boiler.
Did you ever consider installing a Buffer system where your boiler heated the rads indirectly through a buffer tank?
Thanks again Jackoc

jackoc

My calculations are incorrect coal useage 800kg for 27 days 30kgs/day
Purchaing at 4/20 kg =6 euro/day 180/ month 8 months would cost 1440 not bad is it!!!
Hope this is correct
Jackoc

Dali Farmer

That's the way I worked it out Jackoc. I reckoned that I was using about €10-11 of oil per day, plus an open fire with coal/turf daily and the immersion intermittently so I don't think it's a stretch to think the boiler is more efficient. I'll be buying the coal singles in ton bags to increase the value, so will post again when I know exact running costs

QBE

good thread. I am quite interested in the bio end of things. the thread will probably get lost eventually. I think it would make a good sticky for bio fuel systems. keep up the posts .

jackoc

How much would it cost per week to run a bio system? anyone any ideas?

GranGruba

Anyone got details of where to buy tonne bags of singles and pricing for these?

Thanks!

richieburke01

I throw I cat amongst the pigeons
I have wood pellet boiler
Cost me €700 in pellets last year 2000square foot house 16 rads a lot of doubles

Seamus1964

Good job!
What pellet boiler do you have?
Installation cost.
Do you buy bags of pellets or loose tonne (storage)?

richieburke01

Extraflame Lucrezia indoor boiler/stove
Easy for me I was extraflame warranty/technical guy for Munster
But if I had my way now I would go with a Grant Spiral condensing wood pellet boiler 100% put 2 in last not a problem since with it and cheaper to run
I buy bagged pellet no room for storage hoopper so could be cheaper if I brought bulk pellet

TTTT

GranGruba wrote: »

Anyone got details of where to buy tonne bags of singles and pricing for these?

Thanks!

http://www.strataireland.com/pages/view/coal---online-store

jodaw

Any update on how the greenburn has been performing and the running costs with the additional carbon taxes. I noticed that the coal prices seemed to have increased.

Can i ask what size boiler you got from greenburn and what was the cost of the installation? Was there much of an upheavel to connect to a sealed system?

Dali Farmer

Hi,
Sorry for the delay in replying (I'm an infrequent user). I have had the burner in for a year (14 months) now, and have to say we are largely happy with it. I have totted up what we put into it over the year and it comes to 7,100kgs. We have being burning coal only. We have being purchasing coal in NI so no carbon tax. We have being paying €285 per ton, so €2000 for the year (€5.50 per day)

The advantages for us have been the saving financially, we were spending more on oil for an awful lot less heat. I would say that this would suit a house which is occupied a lot. We have young children and(one of us) are at home 24/7. If we were only home for a few hours in the evening I'm not sure it would suit as well. Also we have very very hot water 24/7. The after sales service has been superb. I needed advice a couple of times from Greenburn MD Rob Cleary which was always required late in the evening or at the weekend. Rob always answered the phone or got back to me very quickly. He was very helpful, even when the cause of my concern may not have been anything to do with the boiler (eg when the pressure dropped out of my system due to a leak).

The disadvantages are having to clean the boiler (20mins once a week), and filling the hopper full of coal. I usually put 140kgs in at a time. I fill it every 8 or so days at the moment, but during coal weather I was putting in 140kgs every 5 days.

In response to a question above there was no upheaval in the house at all (one of the reasons we put it in). Rob plumbed it in after our oil boiler, and required no work in the house at all. Rob needed access to the hotpress for some kind of plumbing stuff, but that was it. Installation (including ancillaries like pumps, copper etc) was included in the purchase price of €5,500.

Hope this helps

jodaw

Thanks very much for your detailed reply DaliFarmer. It is the best thread or first hand information i could find out there on solid fuel boilers. The savings seem to increase as the house size increases.

Do greenburn offer a thermal store option or did you consider the pluses and minuses of this option when installing the system?

I have been looking at the Stropuva system and it seems ok with a long burn time but i am uncertain of the positives and negatives of the different systems in Ireland.

It is difficult to find first hand info on these. Guess people in Ireland would be more inclined to install stoves or ranges for solid fuel.

pcfriendlyire

Hi purchased a defro 25kw slack boiler..anyone suggest best fuel to use

Seamus1964

...Slack ?